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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: Richardson on Tuesday 14 June 11 22:40 BST (UK)

Title: Hinder , Prinsep , Morris , Aylwin , Cooper , Sheperd , Fogg
Post by: Richardson on Tuesday 14 June 11 22:40 BST (UK)
Looking for information on Arthur Beryl Prinsep  b. July 1891 , Dartford , m. Adeline Mary Hinder ( Prinsep )( Aylwin )  , f.  Arthur Thoby Haversleigh Prinsep. They were living with a Morris family in 1891.  A.M.Hinder b. 1864 , Calcutta , f. Dr. John Hinder d. 1880 , m. Harriet Ann Morris. 2nd. husband Charles Stanley Aylwin , f. Horace Aylwin , ( f. George Alen Aylwin , m.  Mary Ann Cooper )  m.  Fanny Tracy Sheperd in Ontario , Canada.  John Hinder left England for Australia in the 1790s , married Ann Fog in Australia , they had 3 sons , John died in Ceylon 1818 of cholera. Ann and boys went to Calcutta.  Chumr
Title: Re: Hinder , Prinsep , Morris , Aylwin , Cooper , Sheperd , Fogg
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 15 June 11 13:46 BST (UK)
It would be clearer if you could just list one family at a time! This list of names ranges from someone with one name who died in 1818, to someone else emigrating in the 1790's to someone else who was only born in 1891.

So - Arthur Prinsep bn JUly 1891 - you want more info.
What have you got?
You say he marries Adeline Hinder and they are with a Morris family in 1891? This doesnt tie up if he was only born in July 1891!

Have you got his marriage cert? If so who was his father?
Have you got his birth cert? That would give you both parents names
Title: Re: Hinder , Prinsep , Morris , Aylwin , Cooper , Sheperd , Fogg
Post by: casalguidi on Wednesday 15 June 11 16:22 BST (UK)
Yes, some more precise information would be useful as to what you already have and what you would like to find out.


I have found the family you refer to in the 1901 census of Nelson, Halton, Ontario, Canada

Charles AYLWIN head mar b.29 Aug 1872 Ontario
Adline wife b.19 Sep (year unclear but in her thirties) India
Pearl G H PRINSEP step dau b.19 Mar 1886 India
Ruby G H PRINSEP step dau b.21 Aug 1887 Australia
Garnet T PRINSEP step son b.10 Jan 1889 India
Beryl A PRINSEP step son b.14 Aug 1891 England
Ethel M AYLWIN daughter b.11 Oct 1899 Ontario
+ Thomas NEWMAN, a domestice, farm servant b.Nov 1883 England

It says Adline emigrated in 1896 whilst the PRINSEP children emigrated in 1899 ???

I can't find the family in the 1891 census but I have found this one (rather a coincidence wouldn't you think) ???

1891 - 46 St George's Place, Canterbury

William H J RICHARDSON head mar 33 Indian Staff Corps captain b.East India (BS)
Rose wife 28 b.Middlesex
Beryl H dau 5 b.East India (BS)
Peal H J dau 4 b.East India (BS)
Garnet H J son 2 b.East India (BS)
Edith L servant unm 19 nurse b.Middlesex

(not sure about the initials for middle names)

RG12/708 folio 38 page 15

Beryl PRINSEP gives his place of birth as Isle of Wight, England, crossed out and replaced with Bexleyheath, England (14 Aug 1893) on his WW1 CEF paper.  Next of kin, mother, Adeline AYLWIN dated 15 March 1917

The birth registration of Ruby L PRINSEP in Australia 1885 gives her parents as Adeline M and Thoby http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/Index/IndexingOrder.cgi/search?event=births

Do you have a baptism or birth certificate for Arthur Beryl in the Dartford district 1891 which might give more precise information?

Casalguidi :)
Title: Re: Hinder , Prinsep , Morris , Aylwin , Cooper , Sheperd , Fogg
Post by: scintilla on Wednesday 15 June 11 16:58 BST (UK)
From the fibis website

Presidency of Marriage     BENGAL   
Marriage Year                    1883   
Husband First Names     Arthur J. H.   
Husband Surname       Prinsep   
Wife First Names             Adeline Mary   
Wife Surname             Hinder   
Title: Re: Hinder , Prinsep , Morris , Aylwin , Cooper , Sheperd , Fogg
Post by: scintilla on Wednesday 15 June 11 17:04 BST (UK)
The 1892 edition of Kelly's Handbook of Titled Classes gives

Name            Prinsep   
Rank etc.      Hon.   
First Names     Hy. Thoby   

Family, Career, Home
Eld. s. of late H.T.Prinsep, B.C.S. b.1836. m.1887, Lilla L., widow of Andrew Skeen, M.D. and youngest dau. of late W. Forster Smythe of Staplefield Place, Sussex. B.C.S. from 1855. Puisne Judge of High Court at Calcutta from 1878. 1, Russell St. Calcutta.   
Title: Re: Hinder , Prinsep , Morris , Aylwin , Cooper , Sheperd , Fogg
Post by: Richardson on Wednesday 15 June 11 22:09 BST (UK)
Hello All

  Arthur Beryl Prinsep is the son of Adeline Mary Hinder ( Prinsep )( Aylwin ). They  were living with a Morris family in 1891 in Dartford?  Mother of A.M.Hinder was Harriet Ann Morris. A.B.Prinsep d. Feb.13,1968 in Vancouver , B.C. , Canada.

   Richardson is  a surprise .
   
   Ruby Laurel Grace Hyacinths Prinsep ( Cook ).  d. Dec.24,1969 in Victoria , B.C. , Canada
   Pearl Harriet Jean Grace Hyacinths Prinsep. d. Oct.27,1959 in Vancouver , B.C. , Canada
   Garnet Thoby Prinsep.
   Arthur Beryl Prinsep.
   I have as father Arthur Thoby Haversleigh Prinsep , m. Adeline Mary Hinder.

   My mother Adeline Fanny Grace Aylwin ( Richardson ).

   Thank you.

   Chum
Title: Re: Hinder , Prinsep , Morris , Aylwin , Cooper , Sheperd , Fogg
Post by: casalguidi on Thursday 16 June 11 06:12 BST (UK)
Quote
They  were living with a Morris family in 1891 in Dartford?

May we ask the source of this little snippet?  I can't see any sign of them in the 1891 census in Dartford or Bexley(heath) - only that family in Canterbury :-\

Do you have the birth or baptism details for Arthur Beryl ie. from the actual birth certificate or parish register?

Do you have emigration details for Adeline or the children?

Is there any specific that you are hoping to find/uncover?

Casalguidi :)
Title: Re: Hinder , Prinsep , Morris , Aylwin , Cooper , Sheperd , Fogg
Post by: Richardson on Thursday 16 June 11 16:25 BST (UK)
  The birth is from the FREEBMD. I was told years ago that Adeline was living with a Morris family in 1891. That is why Arthur Beryl Prinsep was born in Dartford. I have never been able to find where in Dartford they were living. The Morris family they were living with would probable be relatives of Adeline mother. I have had a problem tracing the Morris family as well as Arthur Thoby Haversleigh Prinsep.  Only immigration information for Adeline and the children is from the previous messages.

     Chum
Title: Re: Hinder , Prinsep , Morris , Aylwin , Cooper , Sheperd , Fogg
Post by: scintilla on Thursday 16 June 11 17:37 BST (UK)
They could have arrived in Dartford (from India) between the 1891 census (5th April) and Arthur Beryls birth in August. Although from the CEF WW1 documents it looks as though it was more likely to be Bexleyheath rather than Dartford, they of course border each other and Bexleyheath would have come under the Dartford registration district. There are several Morris families living in Bexleyheath on the 1891 census, have you looked at them for any likely candidates?
Title: Re: Hinder , Prinsep , Morris , Aylwin , Cooper , Sheperd , Fogg
Post by: casalguidi on Thursday 16 June 11 17:47 BST (UK)
Pearl PRINCEPS 15 and Garnet PRINCEPS 11 emigrated aboard the "Vancouver" departing Liverpool and arriving Quebec 1 Sep 1899.

The passenger list says that they travelled with Mrs JOYCE's party!  Mrs JOYCE was head of the British Women's Emigration Association ............... she was responsible for transporting many, mostly young women, to Canada.  They are listed as English and destined for Hamilton.  That's a mystery isn't it ???

http://archiveshub.ac.uk/features/0806bwea.html

Master "PRINCESS" 12
Ruby "PRINCESS" 7
Despite the age discrepancies I'm quite hopeful that this is them.  They, too, were travelling with Mrs JOYCE's party and there is a note to say that they were going to join their mother in Hamilton!
They arrived 24 Jun 1899 aboard the "Vancouver" (to Quebec from Liverpool).

A M PRINCEP age 32 wife departed Liverpool on the "Vancouver" destined for Hamilton.  She was travelling with Mrs JOYCE's party and arrived Quebec 1 Aug 1896.

So, the 1901 census of the PRINCEP/AYLWIN family in Hamilton was correct .............. that Adeline emigrated first (with the British Women's Emigration Association) and then enlisted the help of them to bring her children over.  A big mystery there!

Quote
I have never been able to find where in Dartford they were living

Well, probably the best option would be to buy Arthur Beryl's birth certificate - at least it should have an address and some information about his parents.  Strange that he should also list the Isle of Wight first on his WW1 CEF enlistment ............... I wonder what the connection with the Isle of Wight would be as it's not the kind of thing one would dream up ;)

Casalguidi :)
Title: Re: Hinder , Prinsep , Morris , Aylwin , Cooper , Sheperd , Fogg
Post by: scintilla on Thursday 16 June 11 18:13 BST (UK)
There is this PRINSEP family living on the Isle of Wight in 1891

PRINSEP, James H    Head  Married    M    63   Retired Indian Civil Service   b. East Indies   
PRINSEP, Christina L  Wife    Married    F    32    b. Scotland
PRINSEP, Katie B    Daughter    Single    F    24    b. East Indies    
PRINSEP, Phyllis M    Daughter       F    13     Scholar   b. East Indies   

Harrow Lodge, Osborne Road, Shanklin

and also

PRINSEP, Annie M    Head    Single    F    39    Living On Own Means   b. Calcutta India

Sunnyside, Freshwater, Colwell

Perhaps they stayed on the IOW before travelling to Kent?
Title: Re: Hinder , Prinsep , Morris , Aylwin , Cooper , Sheperd , Fogg
Post by: casalguidi on Thursday 16 June 11 19:29 BST (UK)
Oh my, I just found a divorce - wasn't expecting that :)

Case number 1094   year 1893   PRINSEP   Adeline Mary v   PRINSEP   Arthur Thoby
Search the New South Wales (Australia) State Archives for PRINSEP http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx

So, at the moment, we have them in India until Ruby's birth in 1885 Australia then back in India until Arthur Beryl's birth in Kent, England 1891, this divorce recorded in Australia 1893, Adeline's emigration to Canada in 1896 with the children following in 1899 and we know Arthur Thoby was still alive in 1893 then.

Chum, why not try posting on the Emigrants to Australia board here on Rootschat to see if any of the Rootschatters who frequent that board can turn anything else up on their, perhaps brief, time in Australia http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,165.0.html

Casalguidi :)
Title: Re: Hinder , Prinsep , Morris , Aylwin , Cooper , Sheperd , Fogg
Post by: Richardson on Thursday 16 June 11 20:15 BST (UK)
Thank you.

   The spelling is wrong and that is why I could not find any information.

  Garnet Thoby Prinsep
   Ruby Laurel  Prinsep
   Pearl Jean    Prinsep
   Arthur Beryl  Prinsep
   
   Adeline did leave the children in England when she came to Canada. My grandfather Charles Stanley Aylwin did not know about the children at first , possible not until after they were married. I was told the children were left in a convent until they came to Canada. Charles Stanley Aylwin had a farm at Freeman , Ontario which is now part of Burlington , Ontario which is close to Hamilton , Ontario. I have 2 Aylwin uncles buried in the Greenwood Cemetery in Burlington.

  There were a lot of Hinder family in Australia. I have had contact with some. They do not have much information on Adeline Mary Hinder ( Prinsep )( Aylwin ). They are mostly from one of the other two brothers , children of John Hinder and Ann Fogg. They had the 3 sons. Adeline did travel between India , Australia and England even before she was married. I had no idea where Arthur Thoby Haversleigh Prinsep was.

   If any one wants to look at photos they are in my albums at  care2.com.

                     Chum
Title: Re: Hinder , Prinsep , Morris , Aylwin , Cooper , Sheperd , Fogg
Post by: G Mlx on Saturday 28 January 17 17:25 GMT (UK)
There is this PRINSEP family living on the Isle of Wight in 1891

PRINSEP, James H    Head  Married    M    63   Retired Indian Civil Service   b. East Indies   
PRINSEP, Christina L  Wife    Married    F    32    b. Scotland
PRINSEP, Katie B    Daughter    Single    F    24    b. East Indies    
PRINSEP, Phyllis M    Daughter       F    13     Scholar   b. East Indies   

Harrow Lodge, Osborne Road, Shanklin

The above Head James Hunter Prinsep 1827 - 1906 was the son of William Prinsep born 1794 and his brother was Sir Henry Thoby Princep whose son was the artist Valentine Cameron Princep.
William Prinsep father was John Prinsep born 23rd April 1746 and died 30th November 1830 aged 84 and he was an Indigo planter between 1771 and 1787 in India. He held the office of M.P. for Queensbourgh Kent 1802/06 and he was High Baliff for Southwalk 1818-1824. His father was John Princep Vicar of Bicester, dying in 1768.
James Hunter Princep daughter Katie Blanche Princep married my grandfather in 1893, but he divorced her in 1906 and she died in 1951.