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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Durham => England => Durham Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Hemmum on Sunday 12 June 11 09:12 BST (UK)
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Hi Roots Chatters
I wonder if anyone can help.
I am trying to find out more about Robert and in particular his baptism and the marriage of his parents.
Robert’s son was a partner in the brewing firm Crossman, Mann and Paulin. Years ago I was told there was a family connection although my Crossman family come from Devon but Robert’s father was in the Royal Artillery which could be a reason that the family were in the Durham area. Many of the Devon Crossmans were in the R.A.
From the census Robert Crossman says he was born in 1804 in either Durham or Holy Island.
On the 1841 census Robert Crossman is a Brewer (head) with his family living Berwick Upon Tweed Northumberland Dist 4. The household also contains William Crossman born 1759 not born the census county who I assume was his father.
From Chelsea Pensioners records I found a William Crossman of Berwick upon Tweed born abt 1750 Berwick upon Tweed, a Gunner of Invd Batt Royal Regt of Artillery -Attested 1.1.1773 aged 23.
Robert Crossman had 7 children born in the Durham area between 1833 and 1844. James 1833 Durham, Margaret 1834 Tweedmouth, Edmund/Edward 1836 Durham, Robert 1837 Tweed Berwickshire , Eliza (strangely an unmarried PRATT) 1841 Berwick on Tweed, Alexander 1843 Berwick on Tweed, Eliza 1845.
Who were Robert Crossman 1804 parents? Were they linked to Devon or is this a totally separate family??
Unfortunately my geographical knowledge and resources for this area are virtually nil so any help would be gratefully appreciated.
Regards and thanks
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The parish of Holy Island was a detached part of County Durham at that time. Under the Counties (Detached Parts) Act 1844 there were three detached part of the bishopric of Durham, 'Norhamshire' (also known as North Durham) 'Islandshire', and 'Bedlingtonshire' that were "henceforth" to form part of the county of Northumberland. 'Islandshire' was a region centred around Lindisfarne or Holy Island, including many villages on the mainland. It was historically associated with the Bishop of Durham, and was an exclave of the traditional county of Durham.
Stan
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Looking at the pension records, William b 1750 was born in Berwick and discharged at Holy Island after serving 48 years. Trade - Taylor.
The William on the 1841 census appears to be buried in March 1843 aged 84 at Holy Island.
There is a baptism on Familysearch for a Robert Crossman 21st Aug 1803 to a William Crossman and Margaret Gilchrist, Northumberland. IMO The William with Robert in 1841 should, by rights, be his father, probably the one who died in 1843 and it may well be the baptism mentioned.
Family search has Durham bishops transcripts to view by image which may give more detail, if it is transcribed.
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Thank you both for your help.
The name Gilchrist certainly rings bells! Maybe a coincident but 'my' Robert's son John born 11 Oct 1846 in Tavistock (his birth reg cannot be found) married an Emma Victoria GILCHRIST.
If William Crossman (there are so many) and Margaret had other children I may have a time frame for the marriage.
The record you mention from the IGI is extracted (which I do not really trust). I could not see a batch number for Holy Island or Lindisfarne. Are there any Parish transcriptions available. (I cannot get to a centre).
I have found Roberts will but not his obituary which may help with his parents.
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On the family search site a film number is posted. I too do not trust submitted entries.
The IGI has 6 children to William and Margaret, all from the same film, 1797 to 1803, though four of the children ar baptised in two batches.
The IGI also has marriages from film of Holy Island, using the Hugh Wallis site.
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Holy Island baptism:
Robert Crossman born 21 Aug 1803, baptised 4 Sep 1803 4th son of William Crossman, gunner, native of Berwick by his wife Margaret Gilchrist native of Tweedmouth
The son Alexander, born at Tweedmouth to William and Margaret Crossman. Born 30 Dec 1797 written that this child was baptised by a Presbyterian minister
There were 2 sets of twins--Rachel and Sarah, born 20 Nov 1798, baptised Christmas 1798 3rd and 4th daur of William and Margaret then the rest was the samr as the above
James and Margaret, 3rd son, fifth daur. born 29 Apr 1800, baptised 30 Apr 1801. Says James died the same day and Margaret on the 15th
There is a Margaret Crossman burial 12 Mar 1819, on Holy Island, age 58
Janis
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Baptisms Berwick Hide Hill Low Meeting House (Presbyterian)
Robert Crossman born 31 Mar 1837, baptised 2 May 1837 son of Robert, brewer, by his wife Sarah Douglas
Sarah Emma Crossman born 29 Apr 1839, baptised 4 June 1839 same parental information
Maria Crossman born 10 Jan 1841, baptised 25 Feb 1841, same
Janis
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Dear Janis
Thank you so, so much!
Lots to digest here!
Multiple births are a big marker in 'my' Crossman family.
Twins in partically very generation - except me - but my daughter had triplets!
My Crossmans are also NC so perhaps this may also be relevant.
There is a long way to go and I am trying not too excited !!!
Can you tel me the source of the baptisms you found?
Can we possibly find the marriage of William Crossman and Margaret Gilchrist?
Who were Margaret Gilchrist born about 1761 Tweedmouth parents?
Is this a 'wild goose chase' I do hope not!
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Tweedmouth baptisms:
James Hiscutt Crossman, born 6 Jan 1833, baptised 24 Mar 1834, along with a sister Margaret born 13 Feb 1834 children of Robert and Sarah Crossman, manager in Tweedmouth brewery, of Tweedmouth
I am called by some (well one in particular) the fiche lady. I looked them up in my collection from various parishes and nonconform registers
Janis
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Thank you once again Janis. That is another two baptisms for Robert Crossman and Sarah nee Douglas children (however I have never heard the name 'Hiscutt').
It is interesting that you mention NC records as the Devon family were NC. Were James and Margaret's baptism C of E or NC?
On Genuki I found;
bapt 6 Nov 1831 Margaret Gilchrist Crossman child of James & Rachel Hall – Holy Island.
Was James Crossman a brother of Robert?
James and Rachael's children are being born at the same time as Robert and Sarah's children. Was their daughter named after her grandmother?
Was there another Crossman/Gilchrist link?
Another record is Robert Crossman Gilchrist born in 1855 in Berwick, Durham, England. He was a brewer in Seaton Carew
Bearing in mind Margaret Gilchrist is named as the mother of Robert Crossman:
Robert Crossman 21st Aug 1803 to a William Crossman and Margaret Gilchrist, Northumberland.
Where and when did William and Margaret Gilchrist marry?
On the Chelsea Pensioners records (Roberts father) William Crossman (Tailor then Gunner RA) says he was born 1750 Berwick. Was there a Crossman family in the Berwick area around this time? Or possibly was William born elsewhere but settled in the Berwick area?
If the burial 12 Mar 1819 Margaret Crossman of Holy Island aged 58 was Robert Crossman's mother then Margaret Gilchrist was born about 1761.
I have not found her baptism. The only Gilchrist I have seen was:
burial 18 Dec 1831 James Gilchrist of Fenham aged 20 (born 1811) - Holy Island
Was Margaret also from Fenham?
If there was an established Crossman family in the area then there is probably no link between Northumberland and Devon but If William Crossman who was in the Army and posted to the Northumberland area then perhaps there is a link.
Any further ideas or thoughts etc would be appreciated.
Regards
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I believe the Tweedmouth baptisms were C of E.
It is only a transcript and that might be what it (Hiscutt) looked like but I couldn't say for sure.
Janis
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A couple of extracted IGI marriages at Berwick. Extracted records are generally ok, its the member submitted entries that are usually dodgy.
William Redyard and Mary Crossman, 21 Oct 1764.
William Crossman and Mary Gilchrist, 24 Dec 1781.
Alan.
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Dear Alan and Janis
Thanks for your help.
The 1781 Berwick marriage Alan found is obviously the correct marriage for Roberts parents, is there a way to find if there was any witnesses etc on the marriage? (I also trust IGI extracted).
William Crossman would have been aged about 31 when he married Margaret Gilchrist whilst serving as a Gunner in the Royal Artillery. He attested 1.1.1773 aged 23. at Berwick. Although his record says he was of Berwick his records are not as detailed as many I have seen. From my previous family RA servicemen they did not always attest locally. One born in Sussex attested at Liverpool (before being sent to Ireland). It suggest they can attest near to their posting?
I have not found many Crossmans in the Durham area so am unsure if they originated in that area. I really need to find a link from that area to Devon but am not hopeful.
Any help appreciated
Ros
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Berwick Holy Trinity:
Alexander Crossman baptised 23 oct 1842 s/o Robert and Sarah Crossman, Brewer of Quay Walls, Berwick
Eliza Crossman baptised 20 Mar 1845 d/o Robert and Sarah Crossman, Brewer of Silver St. Berwick
Alexander Crossman baptised 26 Jan 1846 s/o William and Mary Crossman, Attorney-at-Law of High St. Berwick
Sarah Marshall Crossman baptised 11 Oct 1849 d/o William and Mary Crossman, solicitor of Bridge St. Berwick
Just some more Crossman's for your list--also of note there was a Thomas and Margaret Gilchrist and Thomas was an attorney-at-law also.
There was also a Gilchrist family in Berwick that were brewers having children in the 1850's--William Nesbitt and Eleanor Gilchrist
If Alexander seems like a likely name there was a baptism in Spittal Presby of a Alexander Gilchrist 27 Mar 1868, born 24 Mar 1868 s/o Alexander and Elisabeth Gilchrist. There was also a Rachel Gilchrist born 1765, same parents
There was a family having children in the Berwick area with the parents Alexander, grocer, and wife Eleanor, these were in the 1820-1830's. (Bapt Berwick High Meeting House)
Also a Captain William Crossman, Ship Captain, and wife Jane Cameron
Janis
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Gosh Janis
You have been busy. I have to say this lot seem very grand up against my Devon lot! Miners, Agi Labs, Carpenters but there was a Devon Crossman who was a humble stone mason working on the docks but was knighted and became the first Lord Mayor of Cardiff!
I am interested in 'Also a Captain William Crossman, Ship Captain, and wife Jane Cameron'
The Devon family are near to Plymouth and a couple of Williams who were named as mariners in marriage or children's baptisms. There is also the later Crossman Gilchrist marriage in 1847 Devonport Devon which I know is linked to the Devon family.
I have 1755 will for William Crossman born Tavistock of HMS York his sole beneficiary was his father Robert Crossman. The will was proved 1762.
Do you have a time frame for Capt William Crossman?
Thanks again for all your efforts - your eyes must be hurting!
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Gosh Janis
You have been busy. I have to say this lot seem very grand up against my Devon lot! Miners, Agi Labs, Carpenters but there was a Devon Crossman who was a humble stone mason working on the docks but was knighted and became the first Lord Mayor of Cardiff!
I am interested in 'Also a Captain William Crossman, Ship Captain, and wife Jane Cameron'
The Devon family are near to Plymouth and a couple of Williams who were named as mariners in marriage or children's baptisms. There is also the later Crossman Gilchrist marriage in 1847 Devonport Devon which I know is linked to the Devon family.
I have 1755 will for William Crossman born Tavistock of HMS York his sole beneficiary was his father Robert Crossman. The will was proved 1762.
Do you have a time frame for Capt William Crossman?
Thanks again for all your efforts - your eyes must be hurting!
My wife's father, James Hiscutt Crossman (1900 to 1992) was a direct descendant of Robert Crossman and she has other info re Robert
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My wife's cousin, Sir Douglas Peter Crossman, is also a direct descendant of Robert Crossman of Holy Island. The info you have given in your PM to me clearly shows there is link. Sir Douglas produced a quite detailed genealogy and we have a copy. There are references to Devon and to the Mann, Crossman and Paulin brewery and to a William marrying Margaret Gilchrist in Douglas's efforts. We have some photos of Robert and Sarah's graves on Holy Island. If you care to give me your address via a PM, I can send you a photocopy of Douglas's material - it runs to about 28 pages (A5). Bob
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Robert Crossman was my 2nd great grandfather and my mother was Cecille Francis Crossman whose father was James Hiscutt Crossman b. 1862. His father was also James Hiscutt Crossman b. 1833. His father was Robert Crossman b.1803. I have 12 children listed for Robert.
I have a fair amount of details on the Crossman family and there is also a link to Sir Hugh Tweedy (Admiral).
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Robert Crossman, of Holy Island, was my wife's great grandfather, her grandfather was John Wycliffe C, the youngest son of Robert. Her father was another James Hiscutt (1900 to 1992). We have a history of the Crossman family compiled by Sir Douglas Peter C of Tetworth Hall (near Sandy, Beds). On rootschat (dated, I think, about 2001) there was a reply to a Shirley C from a Martin Robert Douglas C who said that he was also a cousin of Sir Douglas. Do you have any info re M R D Crossman?
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Many thanks for the information, Robert Crossman had 12 children, and John Wycliffe was the youngest b.13/2/1850. who married Caroline Ada. They also had 12 children one of which was called John Wycliffe b. 1892 d. 1904.
Martin Robert d. Crossman b. unknown, married Carol Nancy, had 2 children Emma 1968 & Robert 1970. Nothing about Shirley.
I was interested to hear that the Crossman family tree is on Rootchat, how can I gain access to it? On my family tree there are only app. 120 Crossmans but I know there are a lot more. So any information would be appreciated.
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'My' Robert Crossman was baptised in Tavistock 1815 12 20 son of George (labourer) and Elizabeth (nee Jago).
Robert (the brewer) was baptised on Holy Island. Robert Crossman born 21 Aug 1803, baptised 4 Sep 1803 4th son of William Crossman, gunner, native of Berwick by his wife Margaret Gilchrist native of Tweedmouth- Holy Island baptism.
Roberts father William (says he was from Berwick although there were no Crossmans in the Berwick area and his baptism has not been found in Berwick). Was he from Devon?
He entered and left the Army as a private. His previous occupation was given as tailor.
Roberts father William was born 1750 (from his army record) or born 1759 (as his burial). As the 1841 census William Crossman was born 1759 not Northumberland (Army Pensioner).
If William had been born in 1759 then he would have joined the army aged 16 (not aged 23 as given on his Army record)
Was William only 16 when he joined the Army?
William Crossman married Mary Gilchrist, 24 Dec 1781 in Berwick on Tweed
If William was born 1750 then he was aged 31 at the marriage. If he was born 1759 then he was aged 22 at his marriage.
Holy Island baptism for William and Margaret's children
Alexander, born at Tweedmouth to William and Margaret Crossman. Born 30 Dec 1797 baptised by a Presbyterian minister - Holy Island baptism
Twins. Rachel and Sarah, born 20 Nov 1798 Tweedmouth, baptised Christmas 1798 3rd and 4th daur of William and Margaret baptised by a Presbyterian minister - Holy Island baptism
Twins. James and Margaret, 3rd son, 5th daur. of William and Margaret born 29 Apr 1800, baptised 30 Apr 1801. baptised by a Presbyterian minister - Holy Island baptism, James died the same day and Margaret on the 15th.
It then appears that William and Margaret had a son and two daughters before their children were baptised on Holy Island.
Where were they baptised? The only Devon baptism is perhaps
William Crossman born 2nd March 1783 Stoke Climsland son of William and Marjery. This is only child for William and Margery in the Tamar area (but if this is their first son this would follow the traditional naming pattern)
If William Crossman was born between 1750-1759. There were two William bapt in the Tavistock area in 1748 one in Mary Tavy in1749 then the next a William in 1767. None there really 'fit' (too old or too young) but many Crossmans were NC so perhaps his baptism is elsewhere!! The Crossman family was widespread in the Devon/Cornwall/Tamar area.
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My 'mistake'. If you Google "Martin Robert Douglas Crossman" and then open "Re CROSSMAN John" that will take you to a different site "genforum....." where you will find the ref to Shirley C.
Alexander C was a middle son of Robert and Alexander's grandson was Sir Douglas Peter C of Tetworth Hall, making Sir D a second cousin of your mother Cecille. My wife is also a second cousin of Sir D and your mother. I don't think the Crossman family tree is literally on rootschat. It must be well over ten years ago that my wife and I took her father ( the other James Hiscutt that I mentioned) and mother to an open day at Tetworth Hall and it was then that we acquired the booklet of family history that Sir D had compiled. It consists of about 28 pp of A5. If you care to send me a personal message with an email address, I can try to email a PDF copy to you - it takes two or three goes cos the file is so big. Incidentally, Sir D's compilation shows 13 children of Robert. As a further aside, my wife was one of 43 beneficiaries of an intestate first cousin so there are quite a lot of Crossman derivatives about!
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I write from France. I'm interested by English people wintering on the French Riviera between 1880 and 1914.
According to the land register of the town of Frejus, Var, France, "James Crossman" built a villa in 1889 and sold it in 1895. This villa still exists and is called "Chateau Aurélien" or "Villa Aurélienne". A mark "JHC/AD 1889" is engraved on a wall. I supposed they are the initials of the builder and of the architect. Could "JHC" mean "James Hiscutt Crossman" (1833-1899) ? Had a "James H. Crossman" belonging to this Crossman family built a villa on the French Riviera ?
Apart from the name on the land register and the initials engraved on a wall, I have no other information about this "James H. Crossman".
I also found an article about "James Hiscutt Crossman, of Hamilton Terrace, Regent's Park, London, director of the brewing firm of Mann, Crossman an Paulin" who died in Canes on April 1908 from injuries received in a car accident. Was he the son of James Hiscutt Crossman 1833-1899 ?
Thank you.
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Hi Rivera
Although this is not my line I have some notes from another chatter part of which reads;
In 1889 James Hiscutt Crossman ‘Old James’ asked his wifes trustees to invest her fortune in real estate in France the site at Vidaudau near Draguianan in Var. He employed Messrs Pecourt the local firm to build Chateau Aurelieu.
‘Old James’ third son was James Hiscutt Crossman who died in the car accident.
Looks like you are spot on. If you want to PM me I can send you more details