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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Ruth1973 on Tuesday 07 June 11 08:13 BST (UK)
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Hi, can anyone do a record look up for me for two sisters (at least we think they are sisters) or shed any light on my mystery?
The details are:
sister 1: Florence (Florrie) Smith
born in July / Aug / Sept 1888, Salford
parents William Henry Smith (b 1861) and Rose Anne Smith (b 1868)
As further info Florence married Patrick Pounder on 5 Aug 1916 at St Cuthberts, Withington, Chorlton, Lancashire,
sister 2: Rose Anne Smith
born about 6th April 1891 in Salford
parents probably same as Florence.
Rose married Alex McKenna
I have a detailed thread about them here which goes into how they must be related as their daughters and grand daughters look alike but Florence mentioned to her husband that Rose and her were adopted and on one cencus (1901) it states they are the niece of William so we think William had a brother or sister who was the parents.
We also know that a family story passed down was that two Smith brothers wanted to adopt a child each but the local authorituies wanted the two girls to stay together. local authorities.
Link to my original thread about them:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,491814.msg3493596.html#msg3493596
Any help would be greatfully appreciated!
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also I know where the two women are buried and have their date of death.
They are in the same grave as their mum (aunt?) Rose Anne Smith in Southern Cemetary, Manchester.
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The family grave in Southern cemetery details.
Roman catholic section grave number: i849
Rose Ann Smith
Buried 5/4/1939 age 74 widow
residing at 18 Anson road, Burnage Manchester
Florence Pounder
Buried 22/11/1943 age 55 married
residing 25 Fortina grove, Rusholme Manchester
Alexander McKenna
Buried 15/11/1960 age 72 retiered
residing 45 ST. Margaret Avenue, Burnage Manchester
Rose Ann McKenna
Buried 16/9/1965 age 74 Widow
residing 45 ST. Maragret Avenue, Burnage Manchester
1927 directory has Joseph Patrick Pounder
4 ST. Margaret Avenue, Levenshulme Manchester.
Warehouseman
It also show Alexander McKenna at the 45 ST. Margaret Avenue, Levenshulme Manchester.
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thank you, that gives me more details than what I had so very much appreciated.
These two girls are a bit tricky!
The story is that they were William's nieces so could be either a sister or brother We though sister as the two brothers wanted to adopt one child each but the local authority did not allow this and William took the 2nd child in as well.
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If they were formally adopted and you have a close family contact, could they not apply to see there records? I am not well up on adoptions but didn't think there was any formal adoptions befor mid 1920's?
It is that birth surname that might give you the biggest problem in locating any records befor they were adopted or finding them in any Roman Catholic home?
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hiya, we don'tknow for definate if they were adopted.
florence is the mother of Kate (my grandmother) and she told her husband Patrick and her daughter Kate that she (Florence) and her sister Rose were adopted. She said she remembered being in an orphanage for a short while.
My nana Kate has since passed away so I can't get any more info and my mum only knows what I know.
Florence's sister Rose never said anything ever. I don't think anyone ever spoke about it then from what I have been told.
As each child and grandchild of each sister got back in touch more often only then did my nana and mum query this with Rose's grandchildren and this was when the doubts came as to whether they were actually blood sisters or not.
We are pretty certain now that they must be blood related as Florence's daughter (nNana Kate) and grand daughter (my mum) are the spitting image of Rose's granddaughter who we are in regualar contact with and I really do mean a very strong resemblance.
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They are both given as nieces of William and Rose in 1901 whereas Florence is given as a daughter in 1891.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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yes and that's why we think that the vague passed down family story of them both being the children of a sibling of William must be true. The other part is that we do know is that William had at least one brother (no idea of name)who wanted to adopt one child.
The question also is was it another brother or a sister of William Henry Smith that are the parents of either just Rose (or both girls. Its confusing that on one cencus Florence is William's daughter then on the next one she is his niece!
I haven't found much out about anything of William's side of the family except that we know he had at least one brother.
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I'm just making sure I have the right family?Was William Henry Smith the son of a Bridget Smith born in Ireland?If so this Bridget was fairly flexible in stating her children's birthplaces and her own age!
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Hiya, I don't know anything about William's parents or siblings.
I know he was born in 1861 in Newcastle, Northumberland, England
His wife Rose Anne Lynch was born in Donegal, Ireland in 1868
She was also Catholic like William.
That's the other thing that is odd about all of this.
His wife has the same names as their adopted child Rose Anne Smith??????
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I have also found this as a potential parents of William and a possible brother.
Any opinions?
Name: William H Smith. Age: 9 abt 1862
Where born: Newcastle Upon Tyne, Civil Parish: Elswick
Newcastle, Northumberland, England
Newcastle Upon Tyne, Westgate
Robert A Smith 31
Elizabeth A Smith 30
William H Smith 9
Robert A Smith 7
James Smith 5
Mary J Smith 3
Thomas Smith 1
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I've returned from my shopping trip!Why I asked whether Willliam Henry was the son of a Bridget Smith is that I believe this is William Henry in 1881.The family are living at 45 Angel Street Manchester.
Bridget Smith,Head,Married,Born c 1839 Ireland.
Thomas Smith,Son,Single,Born c 1860 Durham.
William Smith,Son,Born c 1862,Newcastle-On-Tyne.
Bridget A Smith,Daughter,Born c 1868 Manchester.
RG11/4004/65/20.
Now William is given as a Warehouse Porter exactly the same as the William shown as the father of Florence in 1891!I did consider the one you shown as the son of Robert and Elizabeth but he became a Joiner like his father.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Seems more likely doesn't it than the one I thought it might be.
Can you tell if there are any other siblings as we believe there was another brother.
Also I will se if I can find a cihild of Bridget just to narrow the search down to see if it is the right family.
All searches rule more things out I guess!
Thanks for your help with this.
Did you buy anything nice by the way?
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I didn't buy anything exciting,just groceries from the supermarket!Now then why I mentioned that Bridget was fairly flexible with her own age and that of her children's birthplaces is that living at 45 Angel Street in 1871 are;
Bridget Smith,Married,Head,Born c 1826 Ireland.
Thomas Smith,Son,Born c 1855,Newcastle.
William Smith,Son,Born c 1857.Newcastle.
"Kathe" Smiith,Daughter,Born c 1862 Newcastle.
Mary Ellen Smith,Daughter,Born c 1865 Manchester.
Bridget Ann Smith,Daughter,Born c 1867 Manchester.
RG10/4051/141/13.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Not another potential liar in the family!
This is my mother's side of the family, by the way as my dad's side, his great grandmother lied about her age when she got married and caused me all sorts of grief!
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I don't think we should consider it as deliberate deceipt,we should put it largely down to ignorance.We have to take into consideration the very poor education some of these people received.Also they did not "celebrate" their birthdays as we do now.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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That's interesting, I didn't know that!
I have a photo which has Angel St on the back. I recognised Angel St when it was just mentioned on here and tried to remember where I saw it. I've just looked at the photos my famly sent me and one has "Rose and kate at The Angel House, Manchester " on the back of it. The photo was taken in approx 1933 and is of William's daughter / niece Rose and Florence's daughter Kathleen so I wonder if they had family living there still, from William's side.
Suddenly a photo has made your search results likely!
No, I know the one of my father's side was lying as her partner was a lot lot younger and they didn't tell any of the family!
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One thing is for sure is that I'm struggling to find any info on the other children of this Bridget Smith.Perhaps you can hope that someone might see this thread and recognise some of the names.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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it's been suggested it might be a tricky one due to a very commen name!
I've found a few possibilities of birrhs so will have a look on ancestry for any possibilities.
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That's interesting, I didn't know that!
I have a photo which has Angel St on the back. I recognised Angel St when it was just mentioned on here and tried to remember where I saw it. I've just looked at the photos my famly sent me and one has "Rose and kate at The Angel House, Manchester " on the back of it. The photo was taken in approx 1933 and is of William's daughter / niece Rose and Florence's daughter Kathleen so I wonder if they had family living there still, from William's side.
Suddenly a photo has made your search results likely!
Angel street was part of Angel meadows area and was one of the very poorest parts of Manchester with a big Irish community as did Ancoats.
You can check some of the records on line for around these areas.
I spotted two baptiums with close to your Florence & Rose Ann Smith on there.
http://www.mlfhs.org.uk/data/catholic_search.php
Also st. Chad's church is a two min walk from Angel street.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Cheetham/StChad.shtml
You can read a little about the area on these links
http://www.lhi.org.uk/docs/St_Michaels_flags.pdf
http://www.mangeogsoc.org.uk/egm/3_2.pdf
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Oh thats interesting, thanks.
I spoke to my mum last night and she said that she was told by her mum (kate) of Granny Smith who was a sister of William Smith.
Granny Smith lived in the area in the 1920's and often spent time with Florence and Rose.
It has been suggested that she might have been their mum, What Granny Smith's first name is not known.
There is also a suggestion that the parent of the two girls was in prison and that is why the girls were being looked after by family for most of their young years.
This is pure family rumours and speculation though so I don't know what parts of it are true.
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back to this one again, my permanent brick wall!
Their daughter / niece Florence was born on 11 Aug which her grandaughter (my mum) says is definately correct as they share the same birthday.
cencus records suggested 1888 and I don't think I have confimed whether it was definately 1887 (like the result on genuki seems to suggest) or 1888.
I still think they are all related but adopted?
One result on familysearchorg also suggest 25 aug 1887, nothing for 1888 giving father name as John smith which is identical to a tree on ancestry but they have presumed it is right but not confirmed for definate so I'm loathe to take it as correct.
over a year gone and I'm still trying to solve this one!
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Soory to drag up an old thread of mine but I am about to try again to purchase the birth certificate for Florence. Can anyone help me identifiy it so that I can send off for it.
I know I was told of this somewhere else but I can't find it!
These are the rough dates of birth for each sister
Florence Smith 1888 Salford
Rose Ann Smith 1891 Salford
Thanks
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Hi, can anyone do a record look up for me for two sisters (at least we think they are sisters) or shed any light on my mystery?
The details are:
sister 1: Florence (Florrie) Smith
born in July / Aug / Sept 1888, Salford
parents William Henry Smith (b 1861) and Rose Anne Smith (b 1868)
As further info Florence married Patrick Pounder on 5 Aug 1916 at St Cuthberts, Withington, Chorlton, Lancashire,
sister 2: Rose Anne Smith
born about 6th April 1891 in Salford
parents probably same as Florence.
Rose married Alex McKenna
I have a detailed thread about them here which goes into how they must be related as their daughters and grand daughters look alike but Florence mentioned to her husband that Rose and her were adopted and on one cencus (1901) it states they are the niece of William so we think William had a brother or sister who was the parents.
We also know that a family story passed down was that two Smith brothers wanted to adopt a child each but the local authorituies wanted the two girls to stay together. local authorities.
Link to my original thread about them:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,491814.msg3493596.html#msg3493596
Any help would be greatfully appreciated!
This is the birth of the Florence Smith you referred to.Jul/Aug/Sep quarter 1888,Salford District Lancashire-Volume 8d,Page 86.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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thanks for that. I just needed the last bit which I couldn't remember if I had it!
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Ok, so I now have Florence's birth certificate and its caused me even more confusion.
Details are:
birth Seventh June 1888 at 2 Richmond Terrace, Salford
Father: John Smith, Labourer
Mother: Fanny Smith formally Suckling (or Buckling?)
on the signature, description box it says: x The mark of Fanny Smith mother, 2 Richmond Terrace, Salford
Registered nineteenth July 1888
I don't have Rose's birth cert yet but all I have now are new questions and no answers and how does John Smith fit with William. Were they brothers?
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Also the birth date of Florence is in June which doesn't match what her grandaughter, my mum, said she was told ber her mum what is was being on Aug 11th.
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Just a thought, can I get Florence's birth from her death records?
I know her exact death and where she is buried.
Death Nov 1943, Age: 55, Manchester
Living at 25 Fortuna Grove, Levenshulme, Manchester, Lancashire,
Buried :22 Nov 1943, Southern Cemetery, Manchester
I Roman Catholic, Grave 849
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Who are Rose Ann's parents on her birth certificate?
Gibel
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hi Gibel, that's one I don't have yet.
I had hoped to get a bit of a clue from this one but I'm more confused than ever...
I don't even know that I have the right one now.