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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Croquetplayer on Monday 06 June 11 11:27 BST (UK)
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Hi Rootschatters ;D,
Am hoping that someone can sort out a Battersea question for me.
I have a will for George Lyttelton Holyoake born 1853 Redditch Worcs.
Everything left to Francis Goodrick Holyoake born 1879 Birmingham (1881 census).
They are listed as being at 92 Battersen Place or Rise Battersea (writing not so clear).
Francis is listed as a cycle dealer. I have absolutely no information for him except 1881 census record.
I have tried to find a record of a shop. Maybe this Battersen place was a shop.
I have had no success in finding directories that might list this info.
I am in Australia and have never been in England.
I would like to know if Francis married and had any children and if he did indeed have a shop. Or even if he had any brothers or sisters, beside Emma.
Some names in this family include Lyttleton,Goodricke,Gliddon.
The origin of the family is T & J Holyoake, needle manufacturers in Redditch Worcs.
Not to be confused with the family at Studley Castle carrying the same names.
I hope you all can give me a push in the right direction.
Thanks
8)croquet player
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Hi Croquetplayer and welcome to RootsChat.
I'm a bit confused so perhaps you could clarify a few things.
a) Are you saying Francis is listed somewhere as a cycle dealer in 1926? If so, where?
b) When did George die?
c) On the 1881 census Francis is age 1, i.e. born between 4 April 1879 - 3 April 1880, and hardly likely to be in business as a cycle dealer, and he is living at 10 Bath Row, Birmingham with parents George Lyttelton & Lucy Holyoake. When did they move to Battersea?
d) Where does Emma fit into the picture? What do you know about her?
e) Have you found any family members on other censuses?
Jill
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The address will be Battersea Rise.
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In 1901, he's calling himself Frank - and is a Boarder in Wolverhampton, a Theatrical Agent.
1901 census RG13/Piece: 2671 Folio: 115 Page: 27 - Wolverhampton, Staffordshire @ 6, Church Street
Frank Holyoake 21 Boarder born Birmingham: Theatrical Agent
and in Wales 10 years later.
Interesting that his parents too cant be found in 1891 .... but seem to be in Lambeth between 1901 and 1912 ....
Here's Frank's folks - George & Lucy in 1901 - RG13/Piece: 2671 Folio: 105 Page: 7 - Wolverhampton @ 12, Bond Street.
Boarders in the Instone Household (private house by the looks of it, renting out rooms etc)
George L Hollyoake 48 Boarder Married born Worcs, Redditch: Theatrical xxx - Employer (Master Baker in 1881)
Lucy Hollyoake 44 Boarder Married born Birmingham.
According to the 1897 & 1899 Kellys Directory of Birmingham, Geo Lyttleton was in 82, Bath Row - a Beer Retailer. Wonder why they upped sticks and occuption to go to Wolverhampton linked to the Theatre?
Without full access to the 1911 census thats it from me ...
I would like to know if Francis married and had any children and if he did indeed have a shop. Or even if he had any brothers or sisters, beside Emma.
I cant see a marriage in his full name .... he had an older bro George L. in the 1881 census, born Birmingham c1878 - no sign of a sister, but might be in the 1891 census which I cant find :(
Just seen the 1926 Probate - its 92, Battersea Rise, Battersea, Surrey - died 9 February 1926 - Administration to Frances Goodrich Holyoake, Cycle Dealer. £1459 Effects
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Finally found some of the family in the 1891 census - no sister to Francis/Frank tho.
1891 Birmingham St Thomas - RG12/Piece: 2377 Folio 133 Page 9 @ 82 Bath Row
John Hutchins 68 Head born Warks, Hallon: Retired Beer & Baker
Lucy Holzoake 34 Married Dau born Birmingham
George L Holzoake 13 Grandson ditto scholar
Francis G Holzoake 11 ditto
Alice Green 20 Servant
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Thank you very much guys. :D
This whole extended family has been very difficult to trace.
The original family was Smith. Then Mary Smith of Redditch, already mother to Maryann born 1832 and Thomas born 1840 and Joseph Smith born 1843, ( father was not home on the night of 1841 census and never found by me on searching),married in 1849 to Thomas Holyoake also of Redditch, in Gloucester. In 1848 before that marriage took place, Thomas and Joseph Smith were baptised and became Thomas Holyoake Smith and Joseph Holyoake Smith.
2 sons born to Mary and Thomas Holyoake. Francis Goodrick Holyoake b.1849 and George Lyttelton Holyoake b.1853.
One yr later Joseph Holyoake Smith Died at Buckenhill. Can't find any family there.
The next yr mother Mary died. 2 yrs following father Thomas Holyoake died. Leaving alive - MaryAnn Smith Holyoake,who married Charles Field -Thomas Smith Holyoake who came to Australia about 1866( we have no record of this in immigration files nor of his marriage to Julia Gliddon b. 1844 Middlesex) -Francis Goodrick Holyoake -George Lyttelton Holyoake.
The two little boys seem to have been stuck in school.
In 1872 Thomas Smith Holyoake is killed in a fight whilst working as a travelling Hawker.He is my great great grandfather.
Francis Goodrick Holyoake b.1849 came to Australia after marrying. Set up chemist shop in Adelaide.
He died 2 yrs after arriving- about 1878.
Only one left alive is George Lyttelton Holyoake. His little boy George died in infancy. Emma survived as shown by your research and Francis, aka Frank, ends up living in Battersea Rise Surrey with his widowed father.
There were a couple of Frank G Holyoakes in the various census records around 1900.
I haven't been able to work out which may have been him.
I'd be happy to have you taking a look at the family.
biggest question -who was the Smith boys Dad. Where was he on the night of the 1841 census.
The only information I ever had was that Thomas Smith Holyoake had something to do with Holyoake needles (sold in Aust for a long time). and that Thomas Smith Holyoake named a child Edith Goodricke Holyoake. The rest has taken some work.!!!
I really appreciate what you have already done for me here.
You have shown me really that Frank Holyoake b.1879 is a dead end, and male family may end with him.
Fortunately the rest of my other families have been fairly straight forward.
One other conundrum here.
Why were these Holyoakes using middle names for children even half way round the world, that belong to that Studley Castle family.
If you can shed light on English customs that might have caused this I'd like to hear about them .
Wow - thats a lot of information in one go isn't it?
Appreciate your help even if it ends here. :) :) :)
regards
Croquet Julie
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Sorry Mort29,
See that you actually found Emma missing and little George L. b.1878 alive at grandfathers.
I have death cert for one George so they must have named this one with his name. Also an Edmund Gliddon Holyoake. who died young.
Maybe that George L.Holyoake b 1878 did survive.
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Hi
Francis G Holyoake aged 69
Death registration Blackburn Lancashire 1948
December volume 10b
page 352
Regards
Valda
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Thankyou Valda,
Can you tell me if an English death certificate would tell me if Frank G. Holyoake ever got married?
Can you also tell me if there is any kind of directory available online that I could look at to tell me where he lived and if he had a shop?
I am interested in the shop because he seems to be part of a long line of shopkeepers.
regards
Julie
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explanation of what you might see on a Death Cert .... also depends on who the Informant was if things can be deduced - often the least useful of Certs.
http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/deaths.htm
You say a long line of shopkeepers, but the evidence in the 1901 has him linked to the Theatre - the 1911 census might be interesting. Suspect he was in Wales.
Father George L. even more interesting - Master Baker, Beer Retailer then Theatre linked too ..... the 1911 in Lambeth might produce another occupation. Cant search that for you tho' ...
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Hello,
Just to let you know that all businesses were listed in the 1926 Kelly's Directory for Battersea. It is available to buy online here:
http://genealogyjunction.com/shop/view_product.php?product=WANCLQYP32
The staff at the Wandsworth Heritage Museum are also very helpful:
http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/info/200064/local_history_and_heritage/888/heritage_and_local_history
They have access to the Kelly's Directory as well.
I hope this helps :)
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Thanks aliceavdb,
Just about to go to work and just popped in to check if I had messages.
Will check the directory for sure. I don't know where Lambeth is so I will do a Google on that. It might have a directory too.
You have all been very helpful to me and it has moved my research along once again when I thought I was blocked.
I have an additional question about the 1911 census that Mort29 referred to.
On ancestry I saw the summaries. Checked my main man. Found a reference probably man and wife. Impossible to know from this who they are.
I read the big blurb about the 1911 census and all that it contained on ancestry.
Question:
Is there some way that I can access that extra info (even if its paying for it) and how do I go about it if there is a way?
Or is there a page on Rootschat where someone has already written the answer to this question?
I didn't see it when I read through the beginners pages and looked through the links there.
Should I ask that question in another topic?
Thanks folks ;D ;D ;D
See you tonight my time.
Crokee Julie
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Hi again rootschatters,
Found my way in to 1911 census eventually and worked out how to get the record.
Listed at Lambeth as Geo. Lyttleton Holyoake. Actor Theatrical worker.
Sounds like they did all their dough somewhere along the line. 5 children born. Only one living in 1911.
So that wraps it up I think.
Unless I find Frank G. married and begat a boy, thats the end of the male Holyoake line in this family of Holyoakes.
Hope you are having a warm day where you are
Julie
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Had to laugh about serendipity
1926 Kelly directory you listed aliceaevdb has the Wandsworth Theatre on the cover!!!!!!
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Glad you found the Ancestry 1911 Schedule for Geo & Lucy - a recent Ancestry Blog deals with finding one's way from the Enumerator's Summary Book by using the Schedule number to index into the pages of the original Household Schedules - the RoT is that you double the Schedule number found in the Summary, and then using the Parish / RD etc trawl the image page numbers around that result !
Battersea 1926 Kellys is online in Ancestry - http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1547
Good luck with future research :)
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when was he listed as a cycle agent?
the reason i ask, is that i have stumbled upon George L. Holyoake before whilst trying to crack the person behind the Lion Cycle Company that were based at 48 Leicester Street, Coventry in 1879. They made 'Lion' ordinary (penny farthing) machines and also copies of early hobby horse (boneshaker) machines.
In 1890, H. H. Grifin stated that 'this cycle maker (annoying doesn't say who - after 1879) later became proprietor of the chief music hall at Wolverhampton.
I'm not saying its him but if you can shed any light?
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Thanks for your response, DKimberley,
if Grifin stated cycle maker but not who - where did you originally hear about the George L. Holyoake.
I am intrigued.
I have no information on George and Emma Holyoake. The only thing that I know for sure was that he had the confectioners shop.
I once found him in the UK Achives buying a cool drink manufacturing plant, for his shop.
Seems to have been a bit of a dabbler at things. His brother Francis was a chemist.
His Uncle Joseph Holyoake who was a JP in Warwickshire had a big factory which still stands today.
As Thomas and Joseph Holyoake snrs, had a manufacturing partnership, perhaps George did end up being around factories as a boy.
Jules
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Back again DKimberley,
Since reading over your post a few times I decided to go hunting for musical hall proprietors which you doubtless have already done.
To no avail, of course.
BUT I did, at last, find at least the son in a billing for a show being put on in Leeds in 1909.
http://www.leodis.net/playbills/item.asp?ri=200343_88575381
This does make me feel as though I am on the right track with this family.
I would not have found this if you hadn't posted about the connections between cycling and theatre.
So thank you Damien. I feel re invigorated to go back to the search for them.
Jules