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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Mystic Manaia on Saturday 04 June 11 05:46 BST (UK)
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I wonder if anyone could please help me find the ship and date my Gt Gt Grandmother Catherine Elizabeth Judge arrived on in Australia. I presume she arrived in Sydney as this is where she married in Dec. 1877. She would have come from London and was born in 1860. It is possible her sisters Mary born 1853-54 and Emily born 1855-56 came with her.
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Hello,
On "Mariners and ships in Australian Waters" online http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/......Search on Mary Judge gave the following as the closest to your info.....
Mariners and ships in Australian Waters
SAMUEL PLIMSOLL
OF ABERDEEN, RICHARD BOADEN MASTER, BURTHEN 1444 TONS
FROM THE PORT OF LONDON TO SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES, 22ND OCTOBER 1875
JUDGE MICHAEL AG LABOURER PASSENGER EMIGRANT
JUDGE MARY WIFE PASSENGER EMIGRANT
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Thanks for look up. But this isn't my family. Mary was Catherine's sister and this Mary is married to a Judge, so not mine. :(
Lorna
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Hi Lorna,
All of the JUDGESs that I can see immigrating were from Ireland, including Michael and Mary mentioned by abcsydney.
Do you have the girls on the 1871 census? Are you not sure if Catherine's sisters also came out? Perhaps if you give us parents' names we can look for deaths and then work backwards.
Just be aware that not all immigration records have survived.
Debra :)
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Thanks Debra for checking the Judge arrivals for me. I have Catherine Elizabeth Judge on the 1871 UK census. Her father was Thomas Judge and her mother Eliza Lydia nee Harsant, who died in 1866. Thomas married 3 times more and had more children. Mary (17) and Emily (15) are not at home on census night and were no doubt away working somewhere or could have died.
If you or someone else could try and find their birth or baptism entries or possible marriages for me, this would be appreciated and could help in my research. They were born in Whitestone, Middlesex, England. I don't know what their middle names are. Thomas had a sister Mary Ann, so possibly Ann is Mary's middle name.
Lorna
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Hi Lorna
What was the name of Catherines husband? The reason I ask is that a Catherine Elizabeth Judge (fathers name Thomas) married Paul Carr 9th May 1877 in Adelaide.
Andy
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A Catherine JUDGE arrived Pt Adealide on the 29 Nov 1876 on the DUNTRUNE 29 Nov 1876
Source - SA Records - GRG 35/48/1 Official Assisted Passage Passenger Lists 1845 – 1886.
Newspaper report of the arrival of the DUNTRUNE with passenger list including single woman C. JUDGE [servant] 16 years.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0dl2/
Cheers
Cando
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Andy I think this is her as the age is correct. You locating the marriage in SA certainly made it easy to find her as an assisted emigrant. There is no marriage in NSW in 1877 for a female JUDGE.
Cheers
Cando
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In NSW
REG 1587 IN 1878
STONE BENJAMIN GEORGE
To JUDGE CATHERINE E
At NEWTOWN
Sue
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A death
REG 19848 IN 1965 STONE BENJAMIN GEORGE
Father BENJAMIN GEORGE
Mother MARY ANN
At HURSTVILLE
Sue
ADDING
REG 1011 IN 1946 STONE CATHERINE ELIZABETH
Father THOMAS
Mother ELIZABETH
At BATHURST
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Yes Sue....this looks like her as there is this thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,455987.msg3172631.html#msg3172631
Makes it difficult and wastes time searching when wrong dates are given....
Cheers
Cando
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And Mystic Manaia has the marriage certificate
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,455987.msg3410204.html#msg3410204
Cando
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The December 1877 marriage would have been registered in 1878.
Debra :)
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Ah well!
It looks as if I cannot add much today.
Thanks for the helpful link, Cando.
I must practise harder with my cross-referencing habits.
(Either that or start the Memory Exercises Routine) :P
Sue
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So the question is whether Catherine in SA and Catherine in NSW are the same person? The plot thickens!
Debra :)
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I wonder if there are two Catherine Elizabeth Judges or did my Catherine have two marriages in 1877, one in May to Paul Carr that you found, Andy, and one in December to my Gt Gt Grandfather, Benjamin George Stone on 22 Dec. 1877 in N.S.W. ?
Her marriage certificate to Benjamin gives her conjugal status as Spinster, but she lied about her age on the marriage certificate and her daughter's birth certificate saying she was full age and 21 years, when she was only 18, so possible she lied saying she was a spinster when she was married.
I think I need to eliminate this Paul Carr as her first husband, to know if my Catherine is the one who who arrived in Adelaide in 1876. The year would be when she would have come.
Thanks everyone for your help.
Lorna
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Hi Lorna,
In 1861 the family were living in Hornsey, Thomas Jnr and Catherine were born in Hornsey and Mary and Emily in Whetstone. These are all close together in North London. In 1871 they are in St Pancras with Thomas and Catherine again stated as being born in Hornsey.
Parents Thomas and Eliza were married in 1850, registration district of Edmonton. There are births registered in the district of Edmonton in 1851 and 1860 for Thomas and Catherine Elizabeth.
Mary might be Mary Jane, 1853 at Hendon, and Emily, 1855 at Barnet.
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
In 1871 there is a Mary J. JUDGE aged 19, born Whitstone (sic) in service at the home of James B. HANSLY(?), an architect at St Pancras. (in 1861 his name is STANSLEY)
Debra :)
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Hi Debra
The births registered in 1851 and 1860 for Thomas and Catherine Elizabeth won't be my ones, as Thomas was married to Eliza Lydia at that time. He married Catherine Elizabeth (sister of Eliza) in 1868. Who were the parents of Mary Jane b. 1853 at Hendon and Emily 1855 at Barnet? They could be my ones if their mother was Eliza, as I think those areas are near Whetstone
The age doesn't seem right for the Mary J. Judge in the 1871 census at the home of James Hansly/Stansley, but a possibility.
I found a Mary J. Judge in the 1881 census, birthplace at Shoreditch, who was born 1854. This might be mine, too. She was staying with an Aunt, Jane Weller. But would Shoreditch show as her birthplace if she was born in Whetstone or Hendon? Maybe I need to link Jane Weller to Eliza who was a Harsant before she married Thomas, to see if they were sisters. Or was she Thomas's sister or is it the wrong Mary Judge?
It is all so hard when so many people have similar names. :-(
Lorna
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You have me confused now. Do I have the wrong family in 1861?
Thomas JUDGE, 34, watchmaker, born Hampstead, Mdx
Elizb, 29, born City
Thomas, 9, born Hornsey
Mary, 7, born Whetstone
Emily, 5, born Whetstone
Catherine, 1, born Hornsey
The births in 1851 and 1860 are for the children named Thomas and Catherine Elizabeth.
Debra :)
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Marriage
CARR Paul 27 years Status Single Father Luke CARR
JUDGE Catherine Elizabeth 18 years Status Single Father Thomas JUDGE
9 May 1877
At Registry Office Adelaide Ade 111/494
No births registered to Paul CARR and Catherine Elizabeth JUDGE on the SA Indexes.
No deaths to 1915 for Paul CARR or Catherine Elizabeth CARR on SA indexes.
There are no other CARR marriages to 1916 with father Luke on the SA Marriage Index.
There are no births registered in SA with father Luke CARR.
Cando
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A Mary Jane JUDGE married Henry WELLER in 1889 at Shoreditch but her father was John JUDGE, a florist. She might be the one you found living with Jane WELLER. She was aged 35 when she married.
Debra :)
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Sorry, Debra. You have the right family. I got confused, with Thomas, who is Catherine's father and also it is her brother's name. So I think the births you found for Mary Jane and Emily are the right ones.
Thanks for checking up on the Jane Weller connection. So that looks like another dead end. I was feeling quite hopeful. Thanks for checking.
Thanks Cando for checking on the Paul Carr connection. I definitely know that my Catherine Elizabeth Stone (nee Judge) died in 13 July 1890 in Petersham, N.S.W. I have her death certificate.
I think there must be two Catherine Judge's, both who came to Australia around the same time.
Lorna
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think there must be two Catherine Judge's, both who came to Australia around the same time.
Hi Lorna
I wouldn't rule them out being the same person. Catherine Elizabeth Judge is not exactly a common name, You also have to consider the ages and fathers name are the same.
In fact FreeBMD only has 2 births of that name in the whole of England & Wales between 1837 and 1915, one in 1860 and one in 1873.
It might be worth checking coastal shipping records either leaving Adelaide or arriving Sydney to see if you can find her.
Andy
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I think there must be two Catherine Judge's, both who came to Australia around the same time.
I suppose you could compare the signatures on the two marriage certs just to be sure. I am not sure if the SA Registry transcribe or photocopy the originals from that era.
Just to keep us on our toes and confuse us. Strange that I can find nothing more on the couple who married in SA. I did note a Paul CARR, crew on some of the coastal vessels in Aus in the period but of course no way of knowing if he is the same man who married Cath E JUDGE in Adelaide.
I have looked search for a Catherine PARR or JUDGE arriving Sydney as the lists on a subscription website include the arrival coastal ships, some with passengers and some just cargo. My grandfather, a marine engineer, on coastal vessels between Qld and Fremantle, arrived in NSW as an unassisted immigrant over 30 times in 9 years ::)
Cando
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Hi Cando,
The marriage certificate for Catherine E. Judge and Benjamin George Stone is all handwritten in the same handwriting, so it wouldn't be possible to compare handwriting with the marriage certificate to Paul Carr. :(
Lorna
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I haven't come across a marriage cert that wasn't signed by the parties to the marriage. Was it a hand written copy provided by NSW bdm?
Cando
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The copy was issued in 1995 and the stamp says Principal Registrar of Births, Death and Marriages, New South Wales. It is a certified copy furnished under Part V of the Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages Act 1973.
It looks like it is a photo copy of the actual marriage entry in the church register.
Lorna