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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Tarzan on Wednesday 01 June 11 01:15 BST (UK)
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Searching for a Frances beatrice WHITTICOMBE born c1860 supposedly in South Australia. No details can be found for her. Have been 25years searching. Parents Catherine TOWNSEND and William WHITTICOMBE. Went to SA and searched but nothing.
She married a James Patrick CLARKE around 1884 and had 6 children.On all certificates she listed her maiden name as the above.
Cannot locate her parents either. Any clues as to where I can look.
Buried in 1935 with different Surname in Melbourne.No marriage can be found either.
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Hello Tarzan,
I also cannot see a birth of Frances or any siblings or a marriage of those parents in SA.
I can't see a marriage for James Patrick CLARKE and Frances Beatrice WHITTICOMBE
Some children :
James Raymond CLARKE b 1885 Prahran # 5242
Jessie Beatrice b CLARKE 1887 Melb # 13018 { d Jessie Beatrice GLEESON 1970 aged 83 Moonee Ponds # 15659}
Maud Frances CLARKE b 1889 S Melb # 33178 d 1899 aged 9 Melb S H H # 6867
Lindsay Sam CLARKE b 1891 Melb South # 35086
Charles Lawrence CLARKE b 1893 Brunswick # 29457 d 1913 aged 19 Melb E # 10340
Alice Marion CLARKE b 1896 Brunswick # 1366 { d Alison Marion BREACHER- also registered as NEILL 1972 aged 74 Melb # 8313}
Is this the death you are talking about ?
Fanny WHITTAKER d 1935 aged 74 Malvern E - William WHITTICOMBE and Catherine TOWNSEND # 4902
What does the death certificate say ??
Who was she married to , where and when ?
Who is the informant ?
Where is she buried ?
regards
Alison
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Thanks,Yes that is her. My Grandmother.My mother buried her it seems,in a shared grave for Margaret Elizabeth Campbell . No idea who she was also. I viewed unmarked grave.
Margaret's Certificate says unknown to everything except Birth Armstrongs Victoria. Died year before Frances.
Frances died "Brightside" Sanatorium Malvern was Senility/heart.Informant signature possibly W.R Hurst(Hussl?) Authorised agent Prahran Vic Hard to work out some letters.
To whom married,James Whittaker deceased. married aged 30
Cannot find that either.
Thank you. Thought Brightside would help ,but had no luck with that info either.Records do not seem to be there for her.
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Perhaps won't make make much difference, but the most commonly used spelling of this surname is WIDDICOMBE.
Debra :)
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Thank you. tried every version.
Thanks for your help though Ellen
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I have some questions about your quest which I wonder if you can help with.
If your mother "buried her", presumably she was the daughter of FRANCES, why did she not register the burial in her full and correct name ie FRANCES BEATRICE? and why was she not providing information to the informant if she knew it.
Did your mother furnish the details of JAMES WHITTAKER being the husband?
How do you know you have the correct parent's names on the certificate??
Was that from your mother?
FRANCES was still having children with CLARKE when she was 30
Sue
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Do not know answer to this,but know other family members did not seem to know the Mother well either.
I assume she may have split from marriage perhaps in the late 20s
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I thought the surname could have been registered wrong,that does happen now and again,when registrar or whomever spell things wrong.
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Hi Tarzan.
It may be helpful to chatters if you would type out as fully as you can the details which are on the death certificate you have.
If your mother is the daughter of FRANCES ( which you have not yet confirmed for us!) perhaps her name is on the listing of children born to FRANCES and JAMES.
Who supplied the names of the parents of FRANCES?
Sue
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Yes Alice is her child.
No idea if my Mother gave details as only shows informant as W.R.Hurst Authorised Agent Cecil st Prahran.Vic
15th JUne 1935 Died at Brightside Sanatorium.
Lived in Oakleigh and that appears to be residence of my mother(but whether before or after her Death i am not sure) Fanny Whittaker which is short for Frances.
Lived in Strathalbyn South Australia 6years 68year Victoria
Parents William Whitticombe and Catherine Whitticombe formerly Townsend (Farmer)
Married to James Whittaker deceased.
Married at aged 30
Melbourne
Details on children Birth Certificates marriage has 2 different dates.
Sydney and Strathalbyn SA so obviously we think maybe never married 1882/83
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New Melbourne general.Cemetery Fawkner. Been there and seen unmarked grave.
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I am not having success with finding her on the electoral rolls. This may be Frances and James in 1903
Australian Electoral Roll
1903
CLARKE Frances 7 James Street, South Richmond HD
CLARKE James Patrick 7 James Street, South Richmond Packer
I cannot find any enrolments for a Fanny WHITTAKER or Frances Beatrice WHITTAKER
I am puzzled that we can find nothing on the SA or Vic indexes about her parents.
This is what I have found....
A death for a Capt Charles Alfred WHITTICOMBE who died on board his ship at Port Adelaide but has been mistranscribed on the SA indexes.
The only WHITTICOMBE in Victoria is a Joseph BROWN alias Thomas WHITTICOMBE whose wife was Ann. He died as Thomas WHITTICOMBE at Sunbury, possibly at the Asylum
Link to newspaper item
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0dji/
New Melbourne general.Cemetery Fawkner. Been there and seen unmarked grave.
Burial record
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0djh/
I agree with you - I doubt Frances Beatrice ever married. Unfortunately many births in SA were not registered. You may like to read these items about Civil Regs in South Australia. Have you considered searching Parish Records at Strathalbyn?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0djk/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0djj/
I wish I could have been more helpful :)
Cheers
Cando
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Many thanks Cando.
I found the 1903 one and think they may be them.
Cpt Whitticombe also but he was born years later and had a wife and parents in UK. Found newspaper articles for him and also his wife in UK..
I have the death cert for that Thomas but only showed Born Manchester and they had no idea if he was married.Guess whoever found him at time of Death,knew nothing about him.Sunbury Hospital.
However the Alias is new to me. Thank you for that information.
I will ask the Parish records to look for Frances.maybe she was in their records.
SA did big search for me a few years back,when I made special trip to the BDM there. They could find nothing registered.
Thank you again.
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The bdm registry may have never received the Fanny's birth registration...if there was one....please read the linked newsletter articles. There are many reasons for missing registrations in SA.
Cpt Whitticombe also but he was born years later and had a wife and parents in UK. Found newspaper articles for him and also his wife in UK..
I only detailed his death to show that I had searched thoroughly for you. Also mistranscribed in the indexes.
I have the death cert for that Thomas but only showed Born Manchester and they had no idea if he was married.Guess whoever found him at time of Death,knew nothing about him.Sunbury Hospital.
It is quite rare to find any family information on death certificates for those who died in public institutions such as the Sunbury Asylum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunbury_Asylum
There was always an inquest though - only surname for Thomas on the Inquest Index.
WHITTICOMBE
Sunbury
1895 Ref# 893
You will have to find what churches were established in Strathalbyn in the period and then find where their records are located. Today there is a Uniting Church, Anglican and Catholic.
Cheers
Cando
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Do you know where Frances was between 1896 (last registration of birth) and 1935?
e.g. was she still around when Maud died in 1899? when Charles did in 1913? for her children's marriages?
What happened to James Patrick Clarke? (or was "Whittaker" his alias?)
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Further to Cando's post on Thomas Whitticombe at Sunbury Asylum:
Nominal Register of Patients Ballarat/Sunbury Asylums 1877 - 1907
Thomas was admitted on 19 September 1893, Discharged 23 July 1895.
Link: http://210.8.122.120/publications/documents/07428-P0001-000001.pdf
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Well 1935 was year she died.
She seemed to go off the radar around 1919 when son Charles died.no idea where she was after that.
. James Clarke was mentioned at Gisborne and she seemed to be with daughter at Lancefield (very close area)perhaps she lived with one of the other children but not with the husband. daughter married 1921 so this could have been when she went with family member perhaps. She was Clarke on electoral roll.Whitticombe being maiden name..
Ellen
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You're talking about my great great grandmother. Frances Beatrice Whitticomb married James Patrick Clarke on 23/5/1884 at Stathalbyn SA according to my grandmother's records.
Frances was believed born on 29/6/1856or61 and died June 1935.
James Patrick Clarke was buried at Grantville in Victoria after his death on 9/5/1943.
I may be able to find something more if Grandma has it but since she's in a nursing home now I'm not sure how I'd go.
Your Alice was the sister of my great grandfather Lindsay Gordon [Samuel] Clarke.
Does this help?
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Thank you.Will look that up.
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Hello. Thank you any help wil be wonderful searching this. Who are you connected to? She is or was my Grandmother.
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A quick family tree.
Frances Beatrice Whitticombe mother of Lindsay Gordon [Samuel] Clarke, father of Isabel Nellie Frances who is my grandmother.
She is now 90 but might have something in her family tree gear.
Frances was her grandmother so I guess you two would be cousins.
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Okay .Yes she is my cousin. We are all still trying to solve all this.
Are you related to Maurice then? Isabell's son.
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That's my uncle. My mother is his older sister.
I take it you've had him look at grandma's stuff then?
I probably can't do much more than that myself.
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Yes that's right. Have to hope someone on this site can help.
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Frances was believed born on 29/6/1856or61 and died June 1935.
Ellen
No birth registration on SA indexes. Six years is a fairly larger variation in dates of birth....have these been taken from her children's birth certificates?
Frances Beatrice Whitticomb married James Patrick Clarke on 23/5/1884 at Stathalbyn SA according to my grandmother's records.
Ellen
Details on children Birth Certificates marriage has 2 different dates.
Sydney and Strathalbyn SA so obviously we think maybe never married 1882/83
Tarzan
There is no registration for this marriage on the Marriage index for South Australia. Do you have the certificate?
James Patrick Clarke was buried at Grantville in Victoria after his death on 9/5/1943.
Ellen
Wonder if this certificate has any useful information?
Death
CLARKE James Patrick
Father Clarke Edward Mother Margaret CONNOR
At Wonthaggi 82 years 1943 Reg#18712
Australian Electoral Roll
1924 Mornington/Loch
CLARKE James Patrick Loch Labourer
1924 Flinders/Lang Lang
CLARKE Linsday Gordon Almurta Mail contractor
CLARKE Myrtle Annie Almurta HD
1931, 1936, 1937, 1942, 1943
CLARKE James Patrick Almurta Mailman
CLARKE Lindsay Gordon Almurta Mail contractor
CLARKE Myrtle Annie Almurta HD
James Clarke was mentioned at Gisborne and she seemed to be with daughter at Lancefield (very close area)perhaps she lived with one of the other children but not with the husband.
Australian Electoral Roll
1909 Mernda/Gisborne
CLARKE Frances Lancefield Junction HD
1914 Corio/Gisborne
CLARKE Frances Lancefield Junction HD
CLARKE James Patrick Bolinda Vale Labourer
CLARKE Lindsay Lancefield Junction Stockman
She seemed to go off the radar around 1919 when son Charles died.no idea where she was after that.
I wonder if she was in NSW....
Marriage
15031/1919
CLARKE Lindsay G
CRAYTHORN Myrtle
District Narrandera
daughter married 1921
Is this the marriage but in 1920?
Marriage
CLARKE Alice Marion
NEILL James Francis
1920 Reg#10190
Australian Electoral Roll
1924, 1931
NEILL Alice Marion 33 Ulupna Road, Caulfield East HD
NEILL James Francis 33 Ulupna Road, Caulfied East Assistant
Alice is the only NEILL on the addresses on electoral roll in 1936, 1937 at 6 Selworthy Ave, Oakleigh South and in 1942, 1949 and 1954 at 32 Andrew Street, Oakleigh. There is no Frances CLARKE or WHITTAKER with her dau on the 1924, or 1931 electoral roll.
James Patrick CLARKE died in 1943 and Frances Beatrice WHITTAKER in 1935. Was there a divorce from James Patrick CLARKE or do you think she lived with James WHITTAKER in a de facto relationship as there is no marriage on the Vic marriage index?
I notice there is a James WHITTAKER on the electoral roll Flinders/Loch living at St Helier, Labourer in 1919 and 1924.
Tarzan you mentioned that on Frances B's death certificate the last place of residence was Oakleigh - was the actual address given and if so, what was the address?
There are questions asked by Sue that are relevant and need addressing eg accuracy of the names of Frances Beatrice's parents. Information on death certificates is often far from reliable, as has been proven in this case - marriage of Frances Beatrice to James WHITTAKER when she was 30 years of age....as Sue as mentioned she was still having children with James Patrick CLARKE when she was 30 years of age.
Cheers
Cando
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Have all those certificates Cando Thankyou.They are all related to me. Frances just seems to have gone from records until that Death as Whittaker,
6 Selworthy Ave Oakleigh Victoria Usual residence Death for her states.
No idea no mention of divorce. Must have come back to daughter when elderly I am thinking.
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Interesting that James Whittaker Loch.
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Hi AussiegalRae,
Frances Beatrice Whitticomb married James Patrick Clarke on 23/5/1884 at Stathalbyn SA according to my grandmother's records.
Frances was believed born on 29/6/1856or61 and died June 1935.
The problem is that there is no evidence of either of these events taking place in SA or Vic. There are very few people with this name, and only one family in SA that I can see named WIDDECOMBE.
It would be interesting to find out if your grandmother's information comes from later sources such as the birth certs of Frances and James' children, or if she actually has Frances' marriage or birth certificate in her possession.
Debra :)
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All interesting.
Talking to Mum about this yesterday and I find that Frances Beatrice Whitticombe and James Patrick Clarke actually lived at Loch for some years.
James moved in with Myrtle Annie Craythorn [my great grandmother who died in 1972] and her husband Lindsay Gordon [Samuel] Clarke at Loch/Almurta until his death but Mum isn't sure whether it was because his wife had died or not. James was still living there when he died and the place of death probably was the Wonthaggi hospital.
Myrtle told Mum this.
I noticed today that someone in the Townsend family also has very little information about Frances and has her listed as marrying a Whittaker.
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Yes. That's the mystery even Myrtle did not seem to know about her own other in Law. lot of those info things are mine as been nearly 30years trying to find out. This site has now a couple helping me with it. which is great.Whittaker now in the picture.Not sure if that is correct but worth a look.
Isabells info was all handwritten in excercise books she once told me,and stored at a daughters.
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No Birth certificate for Frances. No birth date either,unsure where that date came from.Think maybe guess perhaps,hence the 5yrs. Taken from age on a birth of child. First child was 1885 James Raymond Clarke. Perhaps Myrtle thought or knew it was June.
Myrtle passed away year after Alice but she did not know much when I had a chat to her. Unfortunately I never knew of her existance until my Mum's funeral.She showed up out of the blue.I only talked to her for couple hours.
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Hi.
Mum has everything Grandma had she tells me.
She's going to see if there's anything Grandma may have forgotten about but I have the written notes on James and Frances that Grandma had and she seemed to only have put in the information she was sure of.
Myrtle has mentioned a couple of things that happened around the time they were in Loch but definitely some sort of estrangement occurring there somewhere.
I met my great grandmother a few times when I was little, we have the 4 generation photo taken when I was about 8. She was the first family member I knew of who had died and we weren't allowed to go to the funeral.
Considering it's family affairs, maybe Myrtle didn't really want to say much about her mother-in-law?
I have a question that's not directly involving Frances, but do you know much about your uncle Lindsay Clarke? Details after January 1944?
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Death
CLARKE James Patrick
Father Clarke Edward Mother Margaret CONNOR
At Wonthaggi 82 years 1943 Reg#18712 CANDO
Have all those certificates Cando Thankyou. TARZAN
Regarding the death certificate of this man.
Who was the informant?
Where was he born?
What is said on it regarding his marriages and children?
Sue
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All six children are named on his Death Certificate.Weird thing is to Whom Married and someone has put Hamilton Victoria aged 22
To whom James Hustler so we searched and found nothing to prove or work this out. As should have shown Frances name.
Authorised Informant was the Agent John Dennis Keady not family member
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to Aussie Rae . We could never work out what happened. Have a Death certificate Isabell and I have but unsure it is him. Buried as Leonard and Lindsay. I had big search done with Cemetery people they could not tell who actually was in grave as have to go Burial notice and that was Leonard.Death was Lindsay
May not even be him,but could find no other information.Mum never mentioned where he went,but Myrtle said he left and she saw him once and never again. He it seems wanted her to move and as one daughter had polio she refused .That was it. Think age also was a bit out.
Understand also back then people kept family matters quiet,Don Clarke also hunted but no luck. We all hunted for any family history. Love a copy of that photo if I could.
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I wonder if you would take the time to be a little more specific Tarzan.
Each column on a certificate has a heading in small writing.
Are you able to tell us what exactly is written in each of the columns using the words which are actually used on the document.
You have given in your answer the impression he married someone named HAMILTON or a man named JAMES HUSTLER
Sue
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Pardon me. Where married Hamilton Victoria. at what age 22 .and to whom James Hustler
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Tarzan you have requested information from a public forum where people are kind enough to search for information for you. It would help all of us if you would please give ALL the information from certificates that you mention. It takes time to research and much of it is done from resources many of us have purchased and from subscription based websites to which we pay quite hefty subs.
Family stories are invaluable to research but unfortunately many aspects of the tales are often proven to be inaccurate.
Pardon me. Where married Hamilton Victoria. at what age 22 .and to whom James Hustler
Perhaps this response to Sue's query for clarification of information could have been worded a little differently.
All six children are named on his Death Certificate.Weird thing is to Whom Married and someone has put Hamilton Victoria aged 22
To whom James Hustler so we searched and found nothing to prove or work this out. As should have shown Frances name.
Authorised Informant was the Agent John Dennis Keady not family member
Tarzan
So are there now possibly three places for the marriage of James Henry PATRICK to Frances Beatrice WHITTICOMBE?
The Agent would be the funeral director or a member of the firm's staff, however someone from the family would have had to give the director information.
James HUSTLER is a male name so it does seem quite odd that James Patrick CLARKE should be married to a female of this name. If you are having difficulty in deciphering any writing on certificates you are permitted to post a snip of the area of the cert and perhaps we can help you. Posting of full certificates is not permitted.
I have a question that's not directly involving Frances, but do you know much about your uncle Lindsay Clarke? Details after January 1944?
AussiegalRae
Linsday and Myrtle CLARKE were living at Korumburra on the electoral rolls 1949 and 1954.
There are a number of Lindsay Gordon CLARKE deaths - all with parents named with this exception however the age indicates a birth in 1884 and your Lindsay was born 1891. Perhaps someone gave incorrect information.
CLARKE Lindsay Gordon
Parents unknown
At Fitzroy 79 years 1960 Reg#8951
and hers
CLARKE Myrtle Annie
Father Craythorn John Mother Ellen FLAVELL
At Bundoora 76 years 1972 Reg#20233
and the death a daughter
CLARKE Reata Alice
Father Lindsay Gordon Mother Myrtle Annie CRAYTHORNE
At Korumburra 20 years 1951 Reg#18998
If you wish to ask questions directly to your relative and don't wish to involve or receive help from other forum members, you could do this by personal message - PM's.
Information on PM's
http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
Cheers
Cando
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Thank you Cando.
I only found out about the pm option today through rootschat and have already moved my queries there.
Raelene
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Hi Raelene
Perhaps you and Tarzan will use the PM option now for aspects of your inquiries which are of a more personal and 'chatty' nature.
In the meantime, if document details can actually be furnished, there is a chance that information may come to light.
As Cando has implied, Family History Research is a two-way exchange requiring as much factual detail as possible to establish the likely pathways!
Ancestors are tricky people ;D
Sue
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Thank you for all the help,it is appreciated. Information is clear on the certificates,but very confusing to research as the name being male on that certificate for "To whom married" is very odd. I was apologising for not being clear Sue. Seems Clarke,Whittaker and Hustler appear in connection to Frances Whitticombe. Possibly due to misinformation being given ,as nothing can be found to prove as yet.
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OK Tarzan,
It sounds as if you are not seeking any further assistance with this.
I'm sure others are with me when I wish you every luck in your future searches.
Sue
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Akways glad to get info on this from any who may find something more.
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Looks like have found her,as a young woman in Melbourne.1881
Father Henry ( ? not William) who was a shopkeeper in Adelaide South Australia. Spelling varies although her signature is Whiticombe on a Birth of a child she had 1881. This child not known to us.
Her age was also out by a few years also. Father from Devon UK. Taken all these years of searching to finally get a break through a Child put into Care. Thanks to all who helped. Records used various spellings also.
Tarzan
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Good find Tarzan ;)
For those who were helping/ following this thread the birth Tarzan is referring to is
Neil Doherty WHITCOMBE b 1881 Carlton - no father listed Frances WHITCOMBE # 7941
I can't find any further reference to this man on the Index :P
Regards
Alison