RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Wilbs on Tuesday 31 May 11 23:39 BST (UK)
-
1891 census (RG12/2981 image 27) has 33 year old John Burns, single, dock labourer (born Liverpool 1858) as a guest of Her Majesty in Liverpool (Walton) Prison.
I'm trying to find out more about this person - his crime, sentence, date of trial, family members, etc. I have no idea when he was sentenced, but if he is the John Burns that I'm looking for his infant daughter Mary was taken into care in 1889, and that may be a clue.
Thank you
Wilbs
-
Depending on what date the child was taken into care - this may be a possibility - but there are a lot of John Burns entries in the Criminal Registers and no ages are shown
Liverpool - 5.12.1889
This is a precis of the offence - Knowingly uttering a counterfeit silver coin and having others in his possession with intent to utter (use). It was not his first offence of the same nature
He got 5yrs in respect of the felony and 18mths in respect of the misdemeanor - both to run concurrently
No age or address shown and no prison shown
-
Thank you Carole
Is this information freely available on the web or do I need a subscription to search that site? May I have the web address. If this is MY GGfather it sounds like I have a lot of history to uncover.
The family spoke very little about the past and this may explain some of the blanks.
The only other information is an address in 1889 - 16 Carnarvon Street, Kirkdale. I have traced the family that lived there in 1891 but can find no link. I had hoped that John Burns was living at this address when sentenced - and that the court records would reflect that - but that avenue seems closed. Do you know of any way to trace occupants outside of census years?
Best wishes
Wilbs
-
Hiya Wilbs..............is this him in 1881
Walton Gaol H M Prison
Hornby Road
Walton on the Hill
JOHN BURNS aged 23 b 1858 Liverpool occ fireman steam vessel ....( engine stoker )
and next but one cell is Patrick Burns b Liverpool 1859 .....dock labourer
allan
-
Hello Wilbs,
Do you have Marys birth certificate or marriage certificate, this would give her fathers details, as the John in the prison records is single, would your Mary be a Burns,
-
Thank you both for your replies.
Yes, Mary is a Burns and John Burns is acknowledged as her father on her 1889 birth certificate. His occupation at the time was ships cook.
Mary was left in the care of Grace Wilberforce and although single, Grace registered the child and advised that Mary's parents John William Burns and Grace Burns (formerly Wilberforce). Mary grew up with spinster sisters Grace and Ida Wilberforce in Toxteth Park. Eventually Grace Wilberforce and John Burns married in 1897.
Mary Ida (or Ida as she was known) hardly mentioned her family, but three comments stand out -
- She was born on a barge in Scotland
She always praised Grace Wilberforce and had "no idea what would have happened to her if Grace hadn't taken her in"
John wanted to married Grace years earlier but she would have none of it until "he changed his wild ways"
"Wild ways" could have meant anything from enjoying too many glasses of beer to Walton Gaol!
My biggest challenge is the large number of John Burns' in Liverpool and I'm gradually working my way through everyone. The latest family to have me stumped is
1861 census - living 20 Edgar Street, Vauxhall, Liverpool
John Burns, 25, labourer, born Ireland
Maria Burns, 28, born Ireland
John Burns, 2, born 1859 in Liverpool
Mary Burns, 3 mths/weeks born Liverpool.
I know from John's marriage certificate that his father was also called John William Burns and perhaps John jnr named his daughter after mother Maria or sister Mary. It looks like John senior died at an early age and mother Maria spends her life in the Workhouse. No obvious sign of sister Mary.
However, there are just as many Mary Burns' in Liverpool as there are John's.
And the 1881 census with John in Walton Gaol could very well be him. Carole commented that it wasn't John's first offense and he could very well have fathered a child in the probably short periods between incarceration.
Best wishes
Wilbs
-
Hi Wilbs
Have you checked out the
http://www.blacksheepindex.co.uk/
Regards
Ken
-
So Grace moved around quite a bit from what I can see in census returns , and she was at least thirteen years older then John,when they married,
here is Mary Idas baptism if you havnt got it,
Born 19th of June 1889,baptism 17 th of July 1889,
Maria Joa Burns,
daughter of Joannis Burns and Gratiae (Wilberforce)
godmother Ida Wilberforce ,
-
Hi Radcliff
Where did you find Grannie's baptism? Which church? It's definitely a record that I don't have. I never remember her going to church - and John & Grace were married at a Registry Office - so assumed that she wasn't baptised.
What nationality are the names? Are we Catholic???????
Can I get a copy?
Sorry, so many questions but after years of searching the is the first bit of new information that we have.
Maybe the John & Maria Burns in the 1861 census is finally the right track.
Thank you from a very excited Wilbs
-
Yes very catholic,
sorry I forgot to note the church but it was I am 90 % sure it is in Toxteth Liverpool,
I am just looking for little Maria/ Mary in 1861 and have a couple of possibilities one being the daughter of Maria Reed and John Burns,
I dont think she was born on a barge, and I did notice the marriage was possibly register office,maybe because she had a child earlier and didnt want to come clean to the priest,
-
St Anthonys Liverpool,
Maria Burns born 18th of March baptism 31st of March 1861,
father John,(Joannis)
mother Maria Reed,
God parents Gul ,which I assume would be William,and Cath neither surname can I decipher,
Johannes Burns born April 16th 1858,baptism April 22 nd,
Joannes Burns born 10 th of November 1858,baptism 14 th of November 1858,both Godparents Reeds
-
The marriage for Maria Reed daughter
of Abraham and Maria Reed,
Gul and Hannah Reed,possible witness,
to Joannem Burns son of Henry and Helen Burns,
St Anthony's 21st of Feb 1858,
this record is extremely difficult to read as it is Latin ,so I have done my best to read it,and copy to here ,may be some one else may look at it and come back with a clearer translation,
-
Hi Radcliffe
I don't think I'll be ever able to thank you enough for the information that you've found. After years of searching, I finally feel that I can move forward on this side of the family.
And (Great Grandfather) John was a naughty boy wasn't he? No wonder the family history is silent and I wouldn't be surprised if the personal message is also him.
I've found the marriage certificate for John & Maria on lancashirebmd so I'll send off for that tonight. Which site did you use to find the additional information regarding the births and baptisms? I've done a quick couple of searches to try and find the certificate numbers but haven't had much luck, but will keep trying. This is too exciting to let go.
Thank you once again for all your invaluable help.
Best wishes
Wilbs
-
Liverpool Catholic records on line,you can order the certificates direct from them,
John and Maria's comes up twice once spelt Reid the other Reed,irrelevant of course,at this stage,one or the other will give her fathers name and occupation,
or if you have ancestry these records can be seen by searching,if you don't have ancestry try your local library as some libraries do have free limited access to ancestry ,
good luck with John,
-
Wilbs
The Liverpool Mercury is one of the 19th century newspapers available online [free] via many library services, in the Gale collection. A quick look shows a number of entries for John Burns, some for a director of the Cunard Steamship Company, others for villains of various degree - failing to send children to school, theft from docks etc. None I saw gave any address, but you may have more patience!
Might be worth some of your time.
A
-
Just a quick update …
Finding out that we’re Catholic and the excellent suggestions from you all have opened doors. From the 1911 census, we knew that John &Grace had a second child, but without further clues we had no idea of the sex, name or date. We found baby John William Burns III born late 1892 and baptized at OL Lourdes in the following year. (They have transcribed Burns as Byrne which didn’t help matters.) Little chap only lived to 16 months and is buried in Ford Cemetery in grave 1168, which appears to be a pauper/mass grave.
However, knowing the John was around in early 1892 to father the child has helped eliminate some of the major crimes listed for John Burns. Unless he had very favourable visiting rights, the John Burns sentenced to 5 years in 1889 for passing counterfeit coins couldn’t be mine. So, maybe his wild ways did revolve around beer!
Grace’s spinster sister Ida was also buried in the same cemetery some 17 years later (again name mis-scribed as Ada Wilberforce) on 12 February 1911 aged 70, in plot 360, so if anyone is walking in that area, I’d love a photograph of her grave.
It looks like Mary Ida (born 1881) was the last Catholic in the family. All her children appear to have married in Church of England or Methodist churches.
Once again, thank you all for your help. I still haven’t found out which of the dozens of John Burns’ in Liverpool is mine, but I’m managed to eliminate most of the major crimes and for this, I’m truly grateful.