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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: TEDED on Monday 30 May 11 07:52 BST (UK)
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Any suggestions for tracing a death and burial in Australia (1905-1955 period) when only the christian names are available. Have birth date, 1st. marriage date but not the 2nd marriage details, thus an unknown surname. TEDED
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Hi Teded,
I think you would find it very difficult, especially if it's a common name. It might be easier to find the second marriage. What has stopped you from finding it thus far - have you looked and not found anything?
Do you know which state in Australia we are talking about? Each state keeps its own birth, death and marriage records.
Cheers
Prue
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Hi TEDED,
Which state are you looking at ?
Do you have the parents names of the person you are looking for ?
When was the 2nd marriage supposed to have taken place ?
Do you have the maiden name and first married name ?
regards
Alison
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TedEd
Adding to Alison's reply:
It may be possible to find the second marriage , depending on whenand where it occured.
The full married name of the individual would assist in locating it and this begs the question is the individual male or female?
Also the conundrum of why is there no surname? This is unusual.
Robyn
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Some more thoughts
Have you tried searching the digitised newspapers with just the Christian names, or with the surname from the first marriage?
Could the person have been in NZ at any time
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast (New Zealand digitised newspapers)
Here's the Australian newspapers http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home
Are you confident there was a second marriage .... could the person have enlisted for service in WWI, WWII, occupation forces Japan, UN forces Korea ...
1905-1955 ... what happened in 1905 and/or in 1955 that causes you to consider that span of years... ;)
What year of birth please, what wwere the christian names and surname on the 1st marriage, where/when was that marriage, who was the other party to that marriage, do you have that marriage cert ..... sorry for these questions but it all helps to help you...
Cheers, JM
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It's my grandmother's parent ,on my dad's side, whom different people have been researching for a number of years, trying to find where they died and are buried. I have all the other info. Their birth dates and where they were born plus their parent's details, where and when they married and their children birthdays and where their children are buried. The belief is that the great grandfather went overseas to Africa on missionary work around 1906-07. It is noted on my Grandmother's marriage certificate (married 1-1-1910) that her father is deceased. There is no further trace about my great grandfather and great grandmother after my grandmother mentioned her on the back of a photo in July 1907. An old family relative thinks that my great grandmother could have remarried but there is no mention or family record of this. Thus if she did remarry, I don't have her new married surname, under which she may be buried. That's why I have christian names but no surname. No-one has been able to find her buried in Australia under her 1st. married name. Also, there's no trace of my great grandfather being buried in Australia. Victoria and NSW are the States of interest. TEDED
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Hi Teded,
If you want to share it with us, your grandmother's given name/s, maiden name and first married name will help us.
Can you also tell us her parent's names, and when and where she was born?
Where was she married the first time?
Did she go to Africa with her husband?
Where was your grandmother born and where was she married?
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Prue,
Perhaps it is this family previously mentioned in a few posts here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,499414.msg3872536.html#msg3872536
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Yes, Merlin. That's the couple who's death and burial places we are trying to track down. Daniel McBride Scott and his wife, Alice Eleanor (sometimes Helena) nee Upton. Daniel McBride Scott: born 16-12-1855 at Eagle Hawk. Vic. Father- Robert Newton Scott -Mother Martha McBride. Wife (Alice): born 1865 at Young NSW. Father:Thomas George Upton B:1829 at Barnstable Devonshire died 7-2-1886 at Temora NSW. Mother was Margaret Connelly born 1832 in Galway Ireland - died in Albury NSW on 24-2-1922. Daniel and Alice married on 1-12-1883 in Presbyterian Church at Temora NSW. Their Eldest daughter, Martha Margaret, is my dad's mum.She married on 1-1-1910 at Kellyville NSW. It is on a copy of the original marriage certificate that states her father is deceased. I don't think Alice went overseas with her husband Daniel. The last mention of both the great grandparents is made by my grandmother in July 1907. It's a vacuum after that. That's why if she remarried, there is no clue of the new surname under which she may be buried. No, NZ would certainly be a long shot JM. NSW and VICTORIA are the best possibilities. TEDED
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TEDED, what does the 1922 death certificate for Margaret UPTON nee Connolly mention of children living or deceased?
Essie
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Alice was 57 years old and still alive when her mother died in Feb. 1922. It only gives the name "Alice" on the death certificate. My father would have been just over 9 years old in Feb. 1922 but I never heard him ever talk about his grandparents or for that matter, my grandparents mentioning their mother and mother-in-law. At this stage, no photo with names, or letters, or anything else with a mention of Alice Eleanor (or Helena) has been found or traced. It's just a big black hole. TEDED
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Hi.
So you are looking for a possible marriage in rural NSW 1907at earliest to find a new surname to then find a d.c.
NSWBDM online explains that the process of reconciling marriage records has NOT been completed..... Does the earlier cert seem to have blanks or does it show it was reconciled 1912 or later........ what denomination..... which church at Temora ...... have you contacted that church to see if 2nd marriage was also there or to ask for the details missing from first crt...
Cheers JM
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Alice and Daniel married in the Prebyterian chuch at Temora on 1-12-1883. They had 5 children, the eldest being my grandmother, who was born at Barmedman NSW, which is 36km north of Temora. The next daughter was born 15 months later, in Victoria. They had 3 more children, all born in different places in Victoria. The last 3 children died as small infants, and are all buried with their father's mother and family in Coburg Vic. cemetery. So, Victoria seems to be more prominent than NSW. I'm expecting copies of old family photos today and hopefully, any clues that may be written on the back of them. TEDED
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Hi,
Alice and Daniel's 1883 m.c. at Temora Presbyterian .... do you have that m.c. and is it complete? ie, does that document give you the names and occupations of their parents including nee names? I asked this NOT to question who their parents were, but to establish IF the NSW BDM reconciled that 1883 marriage entry with the parish records which should have been submitted to NSWBDM in around 1912.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/historyofRegistrysRec.htm
From 1912 Reconciliation made between Registry and Church records.
158 Volumes of Early Church Records created with approximately 50,000 records.
Registry requests access to the 1856 to 1895 church marriage registers.
Present day The task of reconciling the Church Records for marriages between 1856 and 1895 was never finalised. Some of the Registry's marriage records from these years still have missing information.
Have you considered the 1908 marriage registered at Young NSW between an Alice SCOTT and Samuel E Richardson (NSW BDM ref 6579
Cheers, JM
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Hi,
Apart from that Alice Scott marriage in 1908 registered at Young NSW
Have you also considered the following marriages around that time for ladies named Alice SCOTT
to Jno Gillen registered in Victoria in 1909 # 5822
to Jno Gillin reg. Victoria in 1909 # 5822R (probably same as above, showing alteration to surname)
Question:
On the m.c. for any of Alice's children .... does it show Alice's surname as SCOTT, nee UPTON ? It would be usual for all Alice's surnames to be included in her names on a m.c. for her children, thus if you have know which child was last to marry in either Vic or NSW, you could get that cert and see what Alice's names were recorded there ... eg Alice "SMITH", formerly/laterly SCOTT, nee UPTON .... ("SMITH" of course just being an example). It should also note if any parents of the bride and groom were deceased, and of course the names of witnesses who may well have been family members.
Cheers, JM
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I couldn't get the marriage certificate for Daniel & Alice up for you. I can assure you that all the details match up. Even the 2 witnesses are the step-brother and step-sister of the groom. My grandmother (Martha Margaret, the eldest daughter of Daniel and Alice) was the only one of the 5 siblings to get married. The full names: Daniel McBride Scott (deceased) & Alice Eleanor Scott(nee Upton) is shown on my grandmother's wedding certificate as parents. TEDED
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Hi there,
From Daniel and Alice's m.c. does it show on the far right that the information re their parents was added to the NSW BDM registrar's records in 1912 or thereabouts? (only to confirm that this had been reconciled, and thus the information about their parents was added to the NSW BDM registrar's records some 30 years later)
From your Grandmother's m.c. it shows Daniel as deceased and that Alice was therefore alive at that time, and was known as Mrs Scott. So from that, it would be sensible to consider searching for her death at sometime after the marriage of your Grandparents and under the surname SCOTT. The information on m.c. is based on information given by the bride and the groom to the clergy. Its accuracy was not checked by the clergy, but the bride and groom give the information in good faith. (edit to add, and as the father was deceased, the clergy should have asked if the mother had re-married ... and that new surname should have been noted on the m.c.)
Where and when were your grandparents married? Is it likely that Alice would have attended the wedding, and perhaps lived with the couple after that marriage .... Have you found your grandparents on the electoral rolls? Have you then looked at those rolls to see if any others were at that same address or nearby? (a difficult task, as Australian rolls as by surname and not by address at various online commercial sites).
Cheers, JM
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In reply to majm. Thanks for all your suggestions. As previously mentioned, Alice is noted as alive, age 57, on her mother's Feb. 1922 death certificate. My grandparents got married at Kellyville (near Riverstone) NSW. My grandfather was working in the copper mines at Cobar NSW at the time. My grandmother, I'm led to believe, was working in a hotel or boarding house at Nymagee (about 100km south of Cobar) when she met my grandfather. The place where she was working was owned by a relative (unknown). My grandparents first lived at Wrightsville, Cobar in a little wood cabin. Their 2 sons (my dad was the younger) were born there. All moved to Auburn in Sydney when the mines shut down around 1915-20. They then moved to 28 Adelaide St. Belmore within a year or so as my dad went to Belmore primary school and Canterbury Boys High School. It was only a 2 bedroom house at Belmore and there was never any mention of any relative living there. My grandmother died in 1962 and the house was sold after my granfather's death in 1969. It's so strange that there is no witten or photographic records of Alice (& her 1st. husband Daniel McBride Scott). There is no evidence that she remarried but an old family relative (on my mother's side) thinks Alice may have remarried and had a daughter. I hope that this explains the history and mystery of the case. TEDED
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Thanks,
Any suggestions for tracing a death and burial in Australia (1905-1955 period) when only the christian names are available. Have birth date, 1st. marriage date but not the 2nd marriage details, thus an unknown surname. TEDED
So the searching needs to be from 1922 and not from 1905 .... and there's a far western NSW connection ....
Have you looked for Alice in the electoral rolls? she was eligible to enrol ....
I have family moving from Cobar to Sydney post WWI and living in two room house .... several generations all in same house, inlaws, two couples, and their children as well... Big backyards in those times, vegie patches fed the household, and there were verandahs, lean to additions etc.
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
Outside of your 1905-1955 timeframe, but
On NSW BDM online index, there’s this one that you may want to consider...
Alice Mabel SCOTT, death at Brayton, aged 93 registered in 1975... Ref 15836 (likely birth years 1882,3,4)
The index does not include any given names for her parents, suggesting these were not known to the informant, perhaps the middle name may be misleading.
At the Ryerson Index
This shows as Alice M SCOTT, and a notice was in the Goulburn Post in 23 June 1975. http://www.ryersonindex.org/
Cheers, JM
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No. That would make Alice 110yrs. old. She was born in 1865. TEDED
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From the online NSW BDM index
Death in 1947
Alice WALKER, dau of David and Martha, registered at Concord district reference 29855
A transcript of that d.c. would help confirm or eliminate....
Cheers, JM
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Hi
What do you make of this ??????
Thursday 23 March 1922
BASSETT –The remains of the late ALICE ELEANOR BASSETT, late of Cobar NSW, will be laid to rest In the Rookwood Cemetery on arrival of the Funeral Train THIS AFTERNOON . . .
Death in 1922 NEWTOWN district #2036
BASSETT Alice H
Parents THOMAS & MARGARET
Essie
ADDED
A BASSETT death with a middle name Scott and a mother Alice?
PARRAMATTA 40211/1967
BASSETT John Scott
mother ALICE
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Very interesting Essie
now to find a husband perhaps on the electoral rolls perhaps at Cobar, or the MI at Rookwood :)
Cheers, JM
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Rookwood MI
Alice Bassett 22 March 1922 aged 57 gives 1865
Rookwood Cemetery
Alice Bassett
22 March 1922
Age: 57
MI our mother Plot: Section 6 ROW 13 Plot Number: 2761 Size: 1
Rookwood Cemetery Anglican
JM
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Saturday 17 March 1923
IN MEMORIUM
BASSETT- In loving memory of our mother, Alice, aged 57, died March 22 1922. also our dear sister, Mabel Marie Wall, aged 24 died November 1, 1922.
Inserted by Martha and Lily
Essie
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And from Ryerson, following up the 1967 sighting by Essie
BASSETT John Scott
Death 27Oct 1967
at age 67 at Parramatta
Sydney Morning Herald 28 Oct 1967
giving birth year of 1900 ... ???
Cheers, JM
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Don't know now if John Scott BASSETT means anything since I have found the "daughter" mentioned by TEDED.
Marriage for sister Mabel
NEWTOWN district #10711
Date 1917
WALL Norman R & BASSETT Mabel M
Essie
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Some thoughts
Seems you are on track Essie,
So married in 1917 as Bassett, when, where, and what surname was the bride born and if born SCOTT then when was the name altered ... and what names for parents on the 1917 cert ....
Where would you like me to look next?
Cheers, JM
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Mabel's birth
33227/1898 Mabel Scott, mother Alice E, no father listed on index, registered at NYMAGEE
Cheers, JM
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NSW Electoral Roll 1903, The Darling, Polling Place Nymagee
(1903, first time females on the roll, it was NOT compulsory for males or females to enrol, but you needed to be 21 and over to be eligible)
Alice Helena BASSETT, at her domestic duties, Nymagee (no street address)
NONE with surname SCOTT ...
NO others with surname BASSETT
Cheers, JM (very confused now, as to who was Alice Helena Bassett in 1903 .... )
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UPTON ;D
NSW ER 1903, The Darling, Nymagee
Henry UPTON, a miner at Nymagee (no street address)
Maria Anne UPTON, at her domestic duties at Nymagee (no street address)
As there is no street address on this copy of the roll, do not presume Henry and Maria Anne are at same address, or are related to each other.
Cheers, JM
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I think Mabel had a brother, I think John SCOTT birth 1900 registered at Nymagee to Alice E W (no father listed on index) Ref 24848...
Still very confused as to who was Alice Bassett 1865-1922
JM
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Still confused as to BASSETT
But I notice that the same rego numbers show John SCOTT and Mabel SCOTT were also registered under the surname UPTON at Nymagee
Mabel UPTON 33227/1898
John UPTON 24848/1900
Also, that Henry and Maria A UPTON at Nymagee (see 1903 Electoral Roll) were parents to two children registered there in same era
Lillian M in 1901 and Myrtle H in 1904.
Can Lillian be contracted to Lily .... Yes, certainly... Saturday 17 March 1923
IN MEMORIUM
BASSETT- In loving memory of our mother, Alice, aged 57, died March 22 1922. also our dear sister, Mabel Marie Wall, aged 24 died November 1, 1922.
Inserted by Martha and Lily
Essie
Cheers, JM...
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Several notices for Mrs Wall, SMH Friday 3 November 1922
Surnames (apart from Wall) mentioned include Morris , Scott , Bassett
Cheers, JM
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It seems to me we have found Alice SCOTT nee UPTON later BASSETT - the mother of Martha and Lily SCOTT !!!
Saturday 17 March 1923
IN MEMORIUM
BASSETT- In loving memory of our mother, Alice, aged 57, died March 22 1922. . . . . Inserted by Martha and Lily
I doubt there was ever a marriage to Mr BASSETT if Mabel M BASSETT and John Scott BASSETT were registered under Alice’s maiden name.
Essie
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ESSIE. It looks like you are saviour. If it's true, it's a facet of family history that has been a complete mystery to us. I'm sure my youngest sister, who has put a lot of research into this side of the family, will thoroughly check it all out. TEDED (Martha's grandson)
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One mystery solved with Alice - and not only was there another daughter but a son as well. Indeed some truth in that family story!
But the whereabouts of Daniel McBride SCOTT is still unkown. Was there a marriage breakup or had Daniel died prior to 1898?
Now also an added mystery pertaining to the BASSETT surname.
Essie
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Yes, one mystery solved, and of course more questions found!
I have double and triple checked the 1903 roll for Nymagee, no sighting of anyone named David McXXXXXXX etc, and of course there's definitely only ONE Alice Helena BASSETT listed there,
So when did Mrs Scott become Mrs Bassett ... well, sometime between 1900 (when she was either Miss Upton or Mrs Scott as per the b.c. rego) and 1903 when she was on the electoral roll, without a Mr Bassett listed (I stress again, Mr Bassett may have chosen NOT to enrol .... or perhaps he was not there, or perhaps ... he was not a British Subject, ie not born in any of the Colonies, nor anywhere in the then British Empire .... or perhaps he was enrolled within that electoral but at a different polling place ....
The rolls I am looking at are NOT keyword searchable, so it is not an easy task... sorry ...
Cheers, JM
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1903 NSW ER The Darling,
polling at Bennett's Flat
Emily Arabella BASSETT of Tooloon, d.d.
William BASSETT, of Fairview, grazier
polling at Coonamble
Emily Arabella BASSETT of Tooloon d.d. (JM comments :D :D :D Emily was probably enrolled twice, just to make sure she was able to vote for that first time for females !!!)
Polling at Girilambone Copper Mine
Flora R BASSETT, of Girilambone Mine d.d.
Francis BASSETT, of Girilambone Mine, teacher
Polling at Warren
Thomas BASSETT of Warren, a labourer
I have gone through just each polling place, these are all I can spot for BASSETT, the other surnames ... well I am not sure if I will find them, Bassett is usually on the first page and thus easier to spot. I may have missed some, if so sorry.
Cheers, JM
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From Essie's reply (#22)
Death in 1922 NEWTOWN district #2036
BASSETT Alice H
Parents THOMAS & MARGARET
Perhaps the Thomas Bassett on the roll as at Warren in 1903 could be related...
Cheers, JM
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UPTON ;D
NSW ER 1903, The Darling, Nymagee
Henry UPTON, a miner at Nymagee (no street address)
Maria Anne UPTON, at her domestic duties at Nymagee (no street address)
As there is no street address on this copy of the roll, do not presume Henry and Maria Anne are at same address, or are related to each other.
Cheers, JM
You are all very clever RootsChatters!!!
I have just come home from work to find the mystery of many years - or part thereof - solved. Alice Eleanor Upton was my great grandfather's sister. The Henry Upton (in above quote) was also her brother.
There has been great work done on this family of late -
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,499414.msg3872536.html#msg3872536
Thank you again for all your hard work.
Just saw the latest replies - Alice's parents were Thomas Upton and Margaret Connolly - so that is her!
Shakel
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Re David SCOTT
EDIT TO ADD, JM had looked up wrong given name .... see later posts.
Has anyone looked at the following probate packet at the NSW State Records Office at Kingswood
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx
SCOTT David
Condobolin
date of death 24/02/1904
Probate granted 20/06/1904
There are two likely deaths indexed for 1904 NSW
David Scott son of John and Agnes registered at Orange ref 2598
David Scott son of David and Anne registered at Carcoar ref 12770
I doubt either of these would be for a death at Condo, but the locality in the NSW SRO is where the main part of the real estate was, rather than where he death occurred or was registered.
PS, NSW SRO keyword search should also be considered as a pointer for any divorce records
Cheers, JM
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So pleased that your longstanding brickwall is falling down :D
Please when the various transcripts of the various BDM certs do arrive, do consider posting the details from these...
Especially the one for Alice for 1922.
Cheers, JM
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Re David SCOTT
SCOTT David
Condobolin
date of death 24/02/1904
Probate granted 20/06/1904
There are two likely deaths indexed for 1904 NSW
David Scott son of John and Agnes registered at Orange ref 2598
David Scott son of David and Anne registered at Carcoar ref 12770
NSW SRO keyword search should also be considered as a pointer for any divorce records
Cheers, JM
JM, why David? We are looking for Daniel son of Robert SCOTT and Martha McBRIDE
Essie
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Agh, me scribbling notes have both David and Daniel written down, and then elsewhere David is crossed out ...
Cheers, JM
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JM
Tis logical to look for a BASSETT male somewhere in the same region as Nymagee.
Essie
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Essie. I've just been doing a bit of research on burials in South Africa (not my expertise), trying to track the other half of the marriage of my great grandparents. I stumbled across a burial for a "Daniel Scott" in the burial register for St. Mary Anglican Church at Barkly West (which is west of Kimberley S.A. ). This Daniel died on 1st. Oct. 1908, age 52 (the right age for Daniel McBride Scott) and he was buried the next day by J.Cottrell. I stumbled across this information on: www.eggsa.org Hope you can help me see if it's our Daniel or not. TEDED
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My youngest sister (from Canberra) was in Sydney yesterday and went out to Rookwood cemetery with my eldest sister. After a bit of a search, they found Alice's grave, which was a liitle bit overgrown. They did a minor clean-up, put some orange roses on the grave and took some photos of it. I'll post a photo when I get one. Aparently, her daughter,Mabel, is buried with her. It looks like Mabel died giving birth to a daughter, Beryl. In photos taken at my Dads's 21st birthday party in Oct. 1933, there is a young 10-12 yr. old girl called Beryl, who was a bit of mystery to us. It seems that Beryl was raised by LiL (Agnes Maud Scott), which explains why Beryl is in photos with Lil . So now the research begins into Beryl, and Alice's last 2 children, Mabel and John Bassett, as well as the father, Norman Bassett. Open one door any others open. TEDED
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I have now received a copy of Alice Helena (not Eleanor) Bassett's death certificate. Her parents, birth place (Young), 1st. marriage place (Temora), are correct. Lily and Martha are listed as the only 2 children of this marriage, though their ages are the wrong way around. There is no mention of the 3 children that died as infants. The certificate says "none deceased". Her 1st. husband is listed as John Scott (instead of Daniel). It claims she married Jack Bassett at Orange. NSW., though I've found no record of this yet. It lists the children of the 2nd. marriage as Mabel and Jack. I was unable to upload a copy of Alice and Mabel's headstone. Thanks for all your help in tracking Alice. TEDED
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Rather disappointing news. Wonder who the informant was. Someone only telling half truths ???
The two daughters certainly knew their father's name and their half siblings Mabel and John/Jack.
As for Jack BASSETT. . . . definitely no marriage in the online Index.
Alice's son John Scott BASSETT was aka Jack in newspaper notices. On the death registration for Mabel WALL nee Bassett/Scott/Upton her father was named as John, and Mabel was born around the time of that supposed marriage.
Essie