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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: enzfan on Friday 27 May 11 23:21 BST (UK)
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Hi
I am trying to find out anything I can with regards to Ambrose Eyles who arrived in Australia in 1849 and died in Collingwood, Melbourne the following year.
I have searched TROVE and have found three items - his arrival, his widow's subsequent marriage and his daughter's marriage
I am keen to find out who his parents were as I suspect that Ambrose is a missing ancestor of mine
Thanks
Robyn
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You say he arrived in Australia in 1849 - where from?
How old was he when he died as that helps with a birthyear
If he died in 1850 - presumably his wife and daughter also arrived with him in 1849 so what were their names/birthyears?
There is christening entry in 1823 for an Ambrose Eyles in Melksham Wiltshire whose parents were John & Fanny
Freebmd has an 1848 marriage in Devon of an Ambrose Eyles and Elizabeth Croome Ruddle
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Hi
Sorry for lack of info
The Ambrose Eyles from Melksham is definitely mine.
I am hoping that I can connect him to that 1848 marriage and the subsequent departure to Australia. Ambrose was 27 when he died so the dates all line up. In the 1841 census an Ambrose Eyles was living in Devon and training to be a druggist. Elizabeth Ruddle was a Female Servant in the same house
Ambrose and wife, Elizabeth Croome Ruddle, arrived on the John Munn September 1849. Departed from London and Pymouth and arrived Adelaide. According to an Ancestry Tree the daughter was born in 1850 in Australia
Robyn
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From the IGI
ELIZABETH CROOME RUDDLE Christening: 30 DEC 1825 Potterne, Wiltshire, Father: WILLIAM RUDDLE Mother: ELIZA
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That 1841 shows head of household as John Crooms - I don't think that's a coincidence do you?
Elizabeth is shown as not born in county (ie Devon as are John Crooms and Ambrose Eyles which ties in with Wiltshire as their birthplace
IGI
WILLIAM RUDDLE Spouse: ELIZABETH CROOME Marriage: 26 JUL 1821 Bishops Cannings, Wiltshire
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Hi
Thanks for that. Just need to make link of Ambrose from Melksham to Ambrose in Devon.
Would an 1850 Victorian death record show parents, do you know?
Robyn
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Hi
Would an 1850 Victorian death record show parents, do you know
I honestly don't know but on balance - I doubt it.
I have just used http://www.nla.gov.au/collect/genealogy/bdm/ which shows one match for an Ambrose Eyles death in 1850
However - that was just using his name and year of death
If I then put in a father name of John and a mothers name/maiden name of Fanny Thompson (see IGI marriage) it shows no match
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Hi
Thanks again for your help. Much appreciated :)
Will have to try the marriage record but again not sure what would be included
Robyn
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This is the death index registration.
If the parents were known, I believe thay would have been listed.
However we have among our chat group those who are very knowledgeable about such records, and certainly someone will have more to conribute
EYLES Ambrose
Father-
Mother-
Age 27
Place COLLINGWOOD
Year 1850
Reg 28272
Denomination Church of England
Parish St Peters, Melbourne
Fiche 413
Here is the marriage of the daughter
EYLES Elizabeth Croome
To BARTLEMAN George Joshua (born Woolwich)
Birth Place (of bride) AT SEA
Year 1877
Reg 197
Her birth registration
EYLES Elizabeth Croome
Father Ambrose
Mother Croome ELIZABETH
Place COLLINGWOOD
Year 1850
Reg 26496
Denomination Church of England
Parish St Peters, Melbourne
Fiche 386
There were a number of children to the couple and I will list their names in case there is an ancestoral reference you may recognise to help your inquiry.
George
Florence
Gwenillian
Ruth Evelyn
Aubrey Ernest
Reginald Ambrose
Esther Amy
George
Harold Coles.
The details of these can be given if of interest.
Sue
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Hi Sue
Wow!
Thanks so much for this information.
It's interesting to note that Ambrose and Elizabeth's daughter was born onboard ship on their way to Australia.
Yes, I think it would be helpful to get any other information/details you can access as it appears that there must be an EYLES branch in Australia. There are two EYLES branches in New Zealand, from two of Ambrose's sisters, Jane and Martha. Ambrose was the only son of John and Fanny so the name EYLES died with him (if this is him?) I will order the marriage record and cross my fingers that the parents are recorded
You have been very helpful ;D
Robyn
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I will type the details.
Meantime, here is the death of the daughter. she had a good long span ;D
BARTLEMAN Elizth Croonie
Father Eyles Ambrose
Mother Elizth Croome RUDDLE
Death CANTBURY
Age 94
Year 1944
Reg 4610
Sue
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Hi Sue
Unfortunately none of the kids names have obvious 'family' names.
Is Woolwich in Australia or England and is Cantbury - Canterbury - Australia, New Zealand, England?
Robyn
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Woolwich is in England and was in County of Kent.
Canturbury is a suburb of Melbourne, where GEO BARTLEMAN may lived in later years I think.
You can see his rather quaintly worded will digitised here. (download is slow!!)
http://210.8.122.120/indexes/index_search.asp?searchid=54
Here is the death
BARTLEMAN Geo Joshua
Father Bartleman George
Mother Emma Rebecca Edgehill COLES
Place MELB S
Age 76
Year 1922
Reg 6284
Event: D
Here is his arrival in Australia
The Bartlemans arrived Dec 1854 per 'Champion of the Seas'
They were unassisted immigrants from a British port.
BARTLEMAN
INFANT WITH B 082 008
EMMA Aged 30
GEOAged 9
GEO Aged 40
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Bartleman. Father George Joshua. Mother Elizabeth Eyles
George 1878 Reg 22304X
Florence 1879 Reg 24990 at Plea.
Gwenillian 1881 Reg 18496 at Plea.
Ruth Evelyn 1883 Reg 12720 at Staw.
Aubrey Ernest 1885 Reg 6220 at Staw
.
Reginald Ambrose 1886 Reg 29894 at Staw.
Harold Coles 1891 Reg 17353 at Stawell
Esther Amy 1893 Reg 26697 at Stawell
George 1899 Reg 22304 at Stawell
Sue
PS By his death, George born 1878 had the second given name Herbert which does not show on birth.
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Hello,
The Ambrose who died in 1850 :
Ambrose EYLES d 1850 aged 27 -no parents listed # 28272 Church of England St Peters Melbourne Fiche : 413
Elizabeth remarried:
Elizabeth Croome EYLES married Frances William NALDER 1852 # 21667 Church of England St Marks Collingwood Fiche: 332
Their children: { mothers name given on 5 of the children's births- Elizabeth Croome RUDDLE}
1. Mary Flor b 1853 Merri Creek # 20834 C of E St Mark's Collingwood Fiche: 327
2. Francis William b 1855 Box Forrest # 438
3. John Croome b 1857 Pleasant Creek # 16493 d 1858 aged 1 Pleasant Creek # 8538
4. Maria b 1860 Pleasant Creek # 4338
5. Ada Emily b 1862 Pleasant Creek # 16936
7. Alice b 1864 Pleasant Creek # 17518
another entry
Alice b 1864 Pleasant Creek # 24040
If you want me to look further down this line let me know ;)
The only connection I can find with the RUDDLE name - and I don't know if or how they fit with the EYLES/CROOMES
Mary Croome RUDDLE b 1862 Kyneton - George RUDDLE and Rachael GILMORE # 15262
John Croome RUDDLE b 1867 Kynton- parents as above # 2822
Elizabeth RUDDLE d 1897 aged 81 { b Wiltshire} - Charles CROOME and Sarah COOK # 5266
regards
Alison
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Found Elizabeth's death :
Elizabeth Croome NALDER d 1917 aged 92 { b 1825} Stawell- William RUDDLE and Elizabeth CROOME # 6620
So if this is the Elizabeth that was married to Ambrose, why didn't she marry as RUDDLE both times ???
I had a 3X great grandmother who did the same thing and I have never been able to find the father named on her DC. She always went by her mother's name ??? Illegitimate I think as I have never been able to find a marriage for her parents and her mother went on to marry someone else and have more children ....
Alice NALDER d 1920 aged 56 Stawell- Fran Wm NALDER and Elizth Croome RUDDLE # 16447
Elizabeth Croonie BARTLEMAN d 1944 aged 94 Canterbury- Ambrose EYLES and Elizabeth Croome RUDDLE # 4610
Her children :
Aubrey Ernest BARTLEMAN d 1950 aged 65 Hawthorn E # 4938
Esther Amy BARTLEMAN d 1952 aged 59 Mont Albert # 5074
Geo Herbert BARTLEMAN d 1952 aged 74 Mont Park # 6248
Ruth Evelyn BARTLEMAN d 1979 aged 96 Brighton # 28766
Gwenillian LABY d 1966 aged 88 Malvern # 27427
regards
Alison
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Eyles / Bartleman wedding announcement
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0dgt/
Eyles/ Nalder wedding announcement
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0dgu/
Regards
Alison
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ELIZABETH C NALDER, widow of Stawell, left a will which, like the other I have mentioned is digitised and can be read at the link I have given.
There is an interesting codicil to it also .
Her daughter and son-in-law BARTLEMAN are mentioned a lot.
Sue
ADDING :( None of this really brings us any closer to resolving your uncertainty about the AMBROSE's parents :( >:(
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Hi there,
I wonder if there's any sightings in any of the NSW Indexes ..... The colony of Victoria had not yet separated from NSW colony when Ambrose likely arrived (1849) or likely died (1850)
I will have a good look through various online sites and be back shortly.
Cheers, JM
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In the mean time ...
Seems there were problems for the passengers on the John Munn .....
.....Ambrose and wife, Elizabeth Croome Ruddle, arrived on the John Munn September 1849. Departed from London and Pymouth and arrived Adelaide.......
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/50245120 3 October 1849 Sth Australian Register
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/50247680 10 October 1849 same paper
Cheers, JM (so into Adelaide, perhaps there's not much to be found in NSW archives, but I will keep looking)
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Confirming Ambrose arrival on the John Munn (named as a signature, also noticed there's a Miss Eyles too)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/50247682 10 October 1849 Sth Aust Register.
Re what information to expect on a burial certificate issued 1850 .... ie issued before civil registrations had commenced. Firstly, it is not a death certificate, it is only a burial certificate. In Victoria and in NSW and several other states of Australia, death certificates contain not just the name of the person who has died, but the known details about that person's parents, often including nee names, occupations (of the parents) and of course if the deceased was married, the details of that marriage, any other marriages, names of the children of each marriage, how long in the colonies and many other vital family history clues.
The burial certificate should give the name of the deceased, the date of burial, and the name of the cemetery, and the name and qualifications of the person conducting the service.
As this was in Victoria, but at a time when it was still in NSW, the Rev'd ought (but often overlooked doing) to have sent a quarterly return to the NSW Chaplain for the C of E (regardless of the denomination for that Rev'd). Thus there ought (but often is not) to be an NSW Early Church Record on the NSW BDM online index.
Now, the NSW BDM online index is not always accurate, and even if the quarterly return did come from Collingwood to Sydney, then while it would have been recorded in parish records in Sydney, that does not mean that the NSW BDM received any notification (in another quarterly return, this time from that Sydney parish) of that burial. And, those Early Church Records (they start with "V" on the online index), were not reconciled when the NSW BDM did get all the ECR records back towards the late 19th Century.
BUT .... IF there is any likely burial notified via the NSW Chaplain (St Phillips, C of E, Sydney), and if that could be found at the NSWW BDM online index, then it may well help .... because ...
There may be what is often overlooked ..... a family sheet .... in the local parish back at Collingwood, and it may have been duplicated in Sydney ;D and that may have been filmed several decades ago .... and the film may be lodged in several States Public Libraries .. IN WHICH CASE .... the State Libraries are usually very co-operative and helpful.
Fingers crossed that this long post makes sense ....
Cheers, JM Hope the spelling is OK, have not done a spell check, jerky screen.
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Hi there,
Re your Ambrose,
Have you checked the d.c. for an Ambrose EYLES, 4th Qtr 1841 registration at Melksham, Wiltshire Vol 8 pg 239
There is christening entry in 1823 for an Ambrose Eyles in Melksham Wiltshire whose parents were John & Fanny
...Freebmd has an 1848 marriage in Devon of an Ambrose Eyles and Elizabeth Croome Ruddle
The Ambrose Eyles from Melksham is definitely mine.
I am hoping that I can connect him to that 1848 marriage and the subsequent departure to Australia. Ambrose was 27 when he died so the dates all line up. In the 1841 census an Ambrose Eyles was living in Devon and training to be a druggist. Elizabeth Ruddle was a Female Servant in the same house ....Ambrose and wife, Elizabeth Croome Ruddle, arrived on the John Munn September 1849. Departed from London and Pymouth and arrived Adelaide. According to an Ancestry Tree the daughter was born in 1850 in Australia
Possibly several chaps named Ambrose Eyles in England in the 1820's, 30's, 40's ....
Cheers, JM
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Hi
Thanks so much for your contributions. I really appreciate all your effort in helping me with my quest. I shall put the marriage query onto the Devonshire Board and see if I get lucky
Again, thank you very much
Robyn
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According to a tree on A*****
Ambrose EYLES b 1823 Wiltshire County England.
Son of :
John EYELS b 1797 d 1840 Melksham Wilthshire and Fanny THOMSON b 1979 d before 1841 they married 27.5.1818
Their children: { all born Melksham Wiltshire}
1. Frances b 1819
2. Jane b 1820 d 18.11.1903 Nelson NZ
3. Martha b 1822 d 1856 Chippenham Wiltshire
4. Ambrose b 1823 d 1850 Collingwood
5. Mary b 1825
6. Ann b1826
Jane was married first to Joseph MOORE in 1842 they had 1 son Ambrose Eyels MOORE who died in NZ in 1903.
Jane married again to John GULLY 22.7.1846 at Melksham . They had 6 children the first 3 in England and the second 3 in NZ having emigrated there in 1851.
Regards
Alison
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Hi Alison
Probably my tree.
I descend from Jane Eyles and John Gully. Martha Eyles' husband and children also came to NZ after her death.
Trying to find out if the aussie Ambrose Eyles is their brother
Regards
Robyn
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Well,
When you say it is "your tree, do you mean you are the author?
Whoever is the author should not be saying ........
Ambrose b 1823 d 1850 Collingwood
unless they know this is the certified case.
Does this author have information we have not been able to locate, or is it the common case of "circumstances and factors suggest......." ;D
Sue
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Hi
You're right but it will be me - Grant Family...
I'm just entering stuff to see if I get hits while I'm working on this part of my tree - a work in progress
Robyn
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Hi
Reply to MAJM
The 1841 death is an uncle Ambrose
Robyn
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Yes it is The Grant Family
Regards
Alison
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Well, It just goes to further support the statement that there are a lot of very dodgy family trees out there online.
Unfortunately researchers blithely copy large slabs of information from online trees and accomodate them into their own family history. There are no rules that say you can't do this.
No doubt the death of AMBROSE EYLES in COLLINGWOOD MELB. is already a firm fact in someone's history because you have published it as so.
However, we live in the modern communications age ;D and such things will continue to be an issue.
Sue
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Hi
Sorry if I've done something wrong but you will see that where there is doubt I do say so.
If others copy that as gospel then more fool them
Robyn
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If others copy that as gospel then more fool them
Robyn
Quite so!! ::)
Sue
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Hi Sue
I have removed it because I do appreciate how frustrating it is when others, especially other relations, publish incorrect information.
Hopefully I can put it back when I can confirm Ambrose's parents
Robyn ::)
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Hi.
May I ask how do you know that d.c. is for anyones uncle .... please transcribe it.
Cheers JM
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I have removed it because I do appreciate how frustrating it is when others, especially other relations, publish incorrect information.
ROBYN
That is probably for the best ;)
I probably speak for many when I say I wish more researchers were as thoughtful and conservative in their approach.
Sue
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Do you have m.c. for Mrs Eyles 2nd marriage .... it MIGHT detail her 1st marriage and issue of that ....
Very sensible to have removed ....... you mention poss birth in Adelaide so you need to get the family from one colony to another before Ambrose death
Cheers JM
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Hi to JM
Can't transcribe death record as I don't have it but ...
Jane Eyles (1823 Ambrose' sister) is my ancestor. She is found living with her maiden aunt Ann and her widowed uncle Ambrose in 1841. No one knows exactly when her parents died although there is a death record for a John Eyles in 1840. Her mother, Fanny must have died prior to 1837 as I can't find anything yet.
Jane married John Gully and they subsequently moved to NZ.
John Gully was a notable colonial watercolour artist in NZ and there are publications on him. One, done by a descendant, included the pointers to Jane living with Ambrose and Ann in 1841 however because of a transcription issue it has taken me ages to find the record. It was only then that I could even confirm that they were relations on her paternal side. The same author also reported that Ambrose died in 1841 and that Ann died the following year leaving everything in trust to be administered one-fourth for the benefit of her neice Jane. Clearly this relative has done quite a bit of thorough investigating.
So Ambrose Eyles who died in 1841 is Ambrose Eyles, born 1823, uncle.
It may very well be useful for me to get hold of a copy of the will as it may mention Ambrose, his occupation and whereabouts. Not sure how to go about getting of a UK will
Robyn
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;D
Have you access to the "Home Counties" 19thC newspapers .... perhaps looking for Ambrose 1841, marriage 1848, emigration 1849, birth at Adelaide of likely daughter, death at Collingwood etc, remarriage of his wife, etc
Have you tried the NZ digitised newspapers http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast
Here is a link to the National Archives of the UK http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM
Thanks for that.
I found the will and am just going to try and transcribe ye olde englishe but Ambrose does get a mention.
Ambrose was also a witness at his sister Jane's 1846 marriage to John Gully. My gut feeling is that he will be the one who married Elizabeth Ruddle. Just need some proof
Robyn
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Hi JM
Thanks for that.
I found the will and am just going to try and transcribe ye olde englishe but Ambrose does get a mention.
Ambrose was also a witness at his sister Jane's 1846 marriage to John Gully. My gut feeling is that he will be the one who married Elizabeth Ruddle. Just need some proof
Robyn
Fingers crossed, this link is an updated and good resource for extracted parish records (updated from the IGI and etc) https://www.familysearch.org/
Cheers, JM
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Hi to all those interested
Have received the marriage certificate and I am certain that it is my Ambrose who married Elizabeth. The father and father's occupation is correct
Many thanks for information supplied which I can now use with confidence
Robyn
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Hi Robyn,
I am looking for relatives of Ambrose Eyles 1774-1841 or William Eyles 1774-1856.
I have inherited a pair of duelling pistols. The inscription on the box indicated that Ambrose gave them to William. I am curious about the link to my family on my grandfathers side.
Regards William Smith