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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: garyhb on Wednesday 25 May 11 05:11 BST (UK)
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Hi
Wondering if some can help me find Lieutenant Birnie Brown(e) born about 1759 in Dalserf. I have also posted this on Northumberland forum as he died in Morpeth in 1825. He was married to Catherine Grace Cresswell.
The family alternated between Dalserf or Edinburgh and Morpeth so I am uncertain about where exactly he and his family were born
Their kids were
Alicia Browne
Bridget Sophia Armenia Browne
Elizabeth Addison Browne 1791-1844
James Hamilton Browne St-Cuthbert's Edinburgh 10 Aug 1792 -
Willam Browne 1794
Birnie Browne 1796-1855
Walter John Browne Morpeth 1799-1881
I do not know who his parents were.
Any information would help
Regards
Gary
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Gary where did the information come from with regard to the Dalserf connection?
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Hi i found this i hope it helps :)
http://www.halhed.com/t4r/getperson.php?personID=I10628&tree=tree1
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seems to be an india connection,maybe he was stationed there? have u looked up his army records?
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Not sure if this is ur birnie but it seems to fit.
http://thepeerage.com/p3810.htm#i38094
Seems he was granted a peerage.
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Hi Santi,
Thank you for your help. Ange30 has pretty much provided what I am aware of about Birnie Brown(e). My family tree is the Hamilton-Browne Family on ancestry and I had found the halhed site as well which gave his birth as Dalserf about 1759. He is also listed on the familyorg site as being born 1765 but no place. There is also a few more family trees on ancestry that have his father listed as James Hamilton (which I think is really James Birnie of Broomhill, as they were known as Lord hamilton). Broomhill I believe is also in Dalserf. His son James Hamilton Browne was christened at St-Cuthbert's, Edinburgh in 1792. I believe Birnie was also a wine merchant at one time in Leith.
Some Australian family members that I was recently able to find have provided some anecdotal info as well that the oldest son in each family took the middle name hamilton in recognition in the lands they lost in a court dispute with the Hamilton's and the Birnie.org site has a write up on the Birnie's becoming Lord Hamilton and then losing the lands back to the Hamilton's. They also said that they were wine merchants.
I have confirmed up to Birnie in my tree and am now trying to understand where he came from. Ie. if his father was a Birnie or Hamilton then where did the Browne come from.
He married in to the Cresswell family and is also listed in A genealogical and heraldic history of the commoners of Great Britain and Ireland enjoying territorial possessions or high official rank since he married into the cresswell family in Northumberland but unfortunately it does not say where he came from.
I have been searching on and off for a quite a while now, but I am really at a loss of what else to do short of travelling to Scotland & Northumberland. I would gladly send away for his official christening certificate but I don't know how to narrow down the scope of my search.
Regards
Gary
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Hi ANGE30,
Just wanted to say thank you for your help. :D :D
The Halhed site was one of my sources of info as well. The peerage reference is to his son also Birnie Brown(e).
you mentioned looking up his army records. No I have not but I can tell you he was a lietenant in the 21st regiment of the foot (Royal North British Fusiliers) which later became the Royal Scots Fusiliers.
Would you know how to look at army records?
Again I truly appreciate your efforts,
Gary
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Hi Sancti, Ange30
first sorry for the misspell of Sancti in the last post.
Second, Birnie Brown is also listed in the Edinburgh 1815 post office directory as being a wine merchant in Leith Edinburgh with an address of Leith Walk.
I sometimes forget what I have as I have being going through lots of old books, the internet etc to try to gleam a little more info.
Any info would be greatly appreciated
Gary
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Just found one more snippet on a Google book that is talking about his son James Hamilton Browne and references Birnie Brown
He was, I believe, the eldest son of Mr. Birnie Brown of Morpeth (a reputed son of one of the Dukes of Hamilton — born at Dalserf, Lanarkshire, and died at Morpeth, 10 July, 1825, aged sixty) by his marriage with Catherine Grace.
This is from the book Notes & Queries Oxford Journals 1907.
Sort of confirms Dalserf as well but @1765
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You could try looking up his army records at the national archives or u could also try ancestry.
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here is some docs relating to birnie at the national archives
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=059-iorlmil_4-1_2&cid=1-1-1-1-11-24#1-1-1-1-11-24
plus this one
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=059-f4_12&cid=1-1-103-4#1-1-103-4
U could try contacting TNA to see if his records are online.
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Might be worth posting on this site to see if anyone could help u track him down or atleast find out when and where he would have been sent to india.
http://www.victorianwars.com/viewforum.php?f=80
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Thank you Ange30,
You have given me quite a bit of information about his son Birnie
Regards
Gary
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Hello I am still searching for information about Birnie Brown(e) born @1759-1765. I have been able to confirm though written text that he was a son of James Birnie who became James Hamilton Birnie though his marriage to Margaret Hamilton in Edinburgh City on September 9, 1753. Birnie later marries Catherine Grace Creswell which tells us that he was not abandoned by James.
Assumption is he is a natural son of James and a female Browne. Any ideas on where to search further would be helpful.
Regards,
Gary
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Good to see you finally joined the dots. I didn't know about the Brownes until today. Found the connection in his Will. Seems he was a first possibly illegitimate Son. Birnie Browne was not in the Will but his son James was. I am a descendant on James Birnie Hamilton of Broomhill. Not sure what more information you wanted but it all relates to the lairds of Dalserf.
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hi thanks for posting. I have been able to trace most of Elizabeth Hamilton's family but know little about her. James Birnie Hamilton married Margaret Hamilton in 1753, and i found a record for Elizabeth dying 21 Feb 1808 at age 21. given Margaret her mum was born about 1737 i am trying to reconcile the dates. would you have any additional info on her or her sibings James and Margaret?
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Very Interesting for I cannot help but wonder if Birnie could be connected to the Brown's or Broun's I have found in my Draffan ancestry. If there is a connection then you must read all about the Snow Tumult in Glasgow in 1689.
George Draffan married a Jean Brown at Dalserf on 15th July, 1748.
However it is George Draffan's mother Bessie Brown that we need to look at here. Bessie was born in 1699 the daughter of George Broun and Grissell Gall. Now if these two married before 1689 then she could very well be the Grissell Brown who took part in the 17th February 1689 Tumult in Glasgow.
This is quite a long story, so better to direct you to this page which tells it all - https://drmarkjardine.wordpress.com/2016/05/09/the-great-snowball-tumult-at-glasgow-cathedral-in-1689-history-scotland/
There is a list of all the women's names at the end and one as you will see was Grissell Brown.
Malcolm
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Interesting site Malcolm, thanks for that!
Skoosh.
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"The son, John Birnie, styled of Birnie, married Jean, daughter of James Hamilton of Broomhill, Bishop of Galloway, second son of Sir James Hamilton of Broomhill, baronet, a younger brother of Lord Belhaven, from whom the bishop seems to have acquired the lands of Broomhill.
The bishop had two sons, both of whom died without issue, and the estate of Broomhill, came into possession of his daughter Jean above mentioned, through whose right it devolved upon the Birnies. She was succeeded by her eldest son, John Birnie of Broomhill."
AND
"The estate of Broomhill, which is in the parish of Dalserf, Lanarkshire, remained in possession of the Birnies till about 1825, when, from the death of the last direct descendant, a lady, the estate was sold by her heirs to James Bruce, Esq., a native of the parish, who had returned from India, with a fortune."
https://www.electricscotland.com/history/nation/birnie.htm
So you have a John Birnie marrying a Jean Hamilton (doesn't that make them Hamiltons??), then the land that Jean Hamilton inherited was passed on to her son John Birnie.
1728 has John Birnie SNR passing land the John Birnie JNR
https://digital.nls.uk/histories-of-scottish-families/archive/95375127?mode=transcription
"Upon the 6th of June 1717, the aboue John Birnie married for the second tyme his before spoken off cussen, Margaret, only daughter of Mr Alexander Miln, one of the ministers of Glasgow, and Ann Hamilton ((Hamilton!!!)), youngest daughter to the also before James, Bishop of Galloway."
Margaret Birnie (nee Miln) died in 23d March 1729. "She dyed at Edinburgh, and left of ishue James,* born at Edinburgh, 10th August 1720."
https://digital.nls.uk/histories-of-scottish-families/archive/95375175?mode=transcription
Just 43 years later
"1773 The King has been pleased to grant his Royal Licence and Autho-
rity to James Birnie of Broomhill, Esq. in the County of Lanark, and his Issue, to take and use
the Name, and bear the Arms of Hamilton, the same being first duly exemplified according to the
Laws of Arms, and recorded in the Heralds' Office."
I would be wary of assuming anything about this family of Birnie-Hamiltons?
A sister of James or John Birnee of Broomhill could have married to a Brown(e) could have been the heiress and this could be where Brown(e) surname came from too.
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thanks for the new information. Yes James Birnie's maternal side was a branch of the Hamilton's and he also married Margaret Hamilton heiress of Dalserf on 09 Sep 1753 in Midlothian. As his elder brother, Alexander owned Broomhill, ownership reverted to Alexander's daughter Katherine who married Samuel Mitchelson after James dies on 22 April 1796.
what i am struggling with is James 4 children.
Birnie Browne born about 1765 in Dalserf
James Hamilton born about 1768 died about 1798
Margaret Hamilton born about 1780 deceased by 1808
and Elizabeth Hamilton born about 1787 died 21 Feb 1808 married Robert Campbell on 24 May 1803 and had a child James Campbell Hamilton born 01 Nov 1807 died 16 Feb 1869 at Dalserf.
what i would like more information about Birnie Browne and his siblings above. ie assuming the Hamilton siblings are Margaret's but the dates dont seem to quite work.
i have all the information about his father but do not know where the Brown(e) comes into the picture. The other children seem to be born late for someone who was married in 1753.
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Elizabeth is my 4th GGM she had 4 children with Col. Robert Cambell (Campbells of Glenfalloch)she died age 34. Robert the eldest died in 1855 but was not well enough to inherit. Jean and Kathrin twins born 1805 died In their late teens 1823/24. James the youngest 1807 married Mary Rorrison and had issue which carried the Campbell and Hamilton surname on by their eldest Daughter Mary who married Charles Henderson. Hence my user name CamHenHam as I am all three!
Elizabeth 1773 was one of 4 the others being Barbara 1771, James 1777 and Margaret 1779. Margaret I have as married to Col. Irving however it looks like he became a general from the parish survey of 1853. I have no record of children on any of these children other than Elizabeth hence I guess why her children inherited Dalserf and General Irving's estate.
Back to Captain James Birnie who I have a picture of somewhere, I guess as a navy man with a young bride they decided to wait for children. Maybe he got bored of waiting and had an illegitimate child in 1760 hence Birnie Browne. Either way we know he prospered despite whatever family politics keeping them estranged.
Btw if anyone discovers more about the Gpeneral in Dalserf I would be interested.
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Hi Camhenham,
Would they have lived in Dalserf House? Do you have any photographs of it?
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Captain James apparently didn't like the idea of living so close to the village so built Milburn house to live in. There are pictures of Dalserf house on the internet archives inside and out before it was demolished. His Daughter lived there and later his Grandsons Robert Campbell and James Campbell Hamilton.
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Thank you camhenham.
That helps to clear it up. for your 4th GGM Elizabeth, the Scots Magazine of Mar 1, 1808 listed for Feb 21, at Edinburgh, in the 21st year of her age, deeply lamented by her family and friends, Mrs Elizabeth Campbell Hamilton, of Dalserf and Milnburn, wife of Robert Campbell Hamilton.
i guess they used the day (21st) also as her age hence my confusion about her age.
Birnie Browne also lived at Dalserf house as the Caledonian Mercury of 23 Oct 1790 under Game Duty for Lanark lists Birnie Browne, Esq. residing at Dalserf House.
James Birnie from the appendix of the book House of the Hamilton's
age 465 Captain James Birnie Hamilton of Broomhill, Dalserf & Milburn in 1796, excluding his eldest son Birnie Browne, formerly an officer in the Royal Scots Fusileers, and subsequently a wine merchant in Leith, who died at Morpeth in Northumberland, 1825, devised the two latter estates to his other children: 1st James Hamilton, Esq of Dalserf and Milburne, who died shortly after his father. 2ndly, To Margaret, who married Colonel Irving, and died without issue. 3d, Elizabeth, married to Colonel Campbell Hamilton, and died leaving four children, of whom two survive. The eldest son of the above-named Birnie Browne, so excluded, James Hamilton Browne, was however nominated in the entail after the afore-mentioned Elizabeth Hamilton and her issue. Birnie Browne married Grace Catherine Cresswell, first born twin-daughter, and co-heiress of John Cresswell, Esq of Cresswell-Hall in Northumberland, representative of that very ancient family.
The Broomhill property, according to a previous settlement, devolved on the demise of Captain James Birnie Hamilton, upon Mrs. Mitchelson (Katherine Birnie daughter of Alexander Birnie), his niece, relict of Samuel Mitchelson, Esq of Clement, on of the principle Clerks of Session.
i was unware of Barbara and can only assume she died before James did.
thanks once again for this information! i am a descendant of James Hamilton Browne and James Birnie Hamilton through his son Birnie.
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Caledonian Mercury 1809 mentions Birnie Brown, wine merchant, selling a dwelling house, cellars and small house in Coatfield Lane, Leith
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Thank you Sancti!
He does eventually move his family to Morpeth and dies in 1825.
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Folk of this name still about in Glasgow I think? ;D
Skoosh.
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Thanks Skoosh. if they have the surname birnie browne then they are probably descendants of Birnie Browne's Second son Colonel Birnie Browne 1796-1855 who died in Peshawar in what was then India.