RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Marmalady on Tuesday 24 May 11 22:08 BST (UK)
-
Under what circumstances would someone term themselves "Gentleman" ? Was it sufficient that he had (somehow) amassed sufficient money that he did not need to work?
I have an ancestor who is described as a Gentleman on both his son's marriage certificate in 1848 and his own death certicate a year later. On the 1841 census he is described as "Ind"
I also cannot work out where he would have got sufficient money from -- his father was a stonemason and on his death some 20 yrs earlier had left less than £20 to be shared amongst several siblings so it does not seem to be inherited wealth.
I have not yet been able to trace his marriage, but it seems unlikely that he would marry very far above his own status.
-
See What made a "Gentleman"? http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,410656.msg2777609.html#msg2777609
Stan
-
I looked up the thread you sent.
Now the next question:
What does "Esq" stand for after a name? I know it means Esquire, but what does it signify when it is "XYZ, Esq" rather than "Mr. XYZ"?
MariaB
-
Bookmarking for future reference! I have an ancestor who called himself "Esq." ... but have no real idea what it meant, nor whether he was actually entitled to use it.
-
People who were 'gentry' or thought they were (?!) called themselves Esq. rather than Mr.
'way back when'
This is in England, of course. A few tried to put it on when they got out to Australia, but were quickly put in their place.
:D :D ::) ::) :P :P
Dawn M
-
A few tried to put it on when they got out to Australia, but were quickly put in their place.
Though the newspapers still often referred to them as Esq so I've found in my travels amongst my family.
- I have a couple of people named as Esq and they are also down as Gentlemen - in my case one bloke had enough money to be 'Ind'ependent and didn't need to work - don't know how that came about either - his parents were farmers and then tailors! (didn't even get free land) In the other case they were large landowners who employed others even though they also worked the land - not tooooo much of the 'hands on' maybe
- and how did they get from convict to publican to landowner - why free gov't land grants in the early days of the colony of course!!
;) ;) Some of my lot ended up with thousands of acres of free land!! No wonder they did well for themselves!
The other side who came later and had to buy land didn't do nearly as well!! ;)
Wiggy
-
"Though the newspapers still often referred to them as Esq so I've found in my travels amongst my family."
This is true, Wiggy, but the custom didn't last long, did it?
Tall poppy syndrome I think they call it ;D ;D ;D
Dawn M
-
You are correct! cut them down to size at all costs!! ;D ;D
-
I looked up the thread you sent.
Now the next question:
What does "Esq" stand for after a name? I know it means Esquire, but what does it signify when it is "XYZ, Esq" rather than "Mr. XYZ"?
MariaB
Originally the term Esquire denoted an attendant to, or the son of a knight or lord, but later denoted a status above that of a gentleman, or men who were regarded as ‘gentlemen’ by birth, position, or education. it then became just a courtesy title.
Stan
-
Thank you for this clarification, Stan. Bank of Ireland would still use the term "Esq" in the 1980s when the account holder owned land - most (married) farmers were listed " A.N. Other, Esq. & Mrs. Jane Other" - at least they allowed the wives their own first name that way :-)
What would be the corresponding term for a single woman of higher standing / origin, if there was any?
Maria
-
What would be the corresponding term for a single woman of higher standing / origin, if there was any?
The term "gentlewoman" was used, but I only come across it very occasionally.
-
I think the term 'gentleman' would sometimes be used by members of the aspiring middle classes. I have a couple of ancestors who were recorded as 'gentleman' on various documents, just because they seemed to have had enough money/land to not have to work - but they weren't born into the landed gentry, they were bakers and farmers.
-
Wiggy wrote
> Some of my lot ended up with thousands of acres of free land!! No wonder they did well for themselves!
The other side who came later and had to buy land didn't do nearly as well!! <
A clear case of ending up at the right place at the right time.
Isn't that a form of poetic justice when you consider for what kind of often petty misdemeanours they were deported?
Maria
-
I have a case where my gggrandmother was widowed with 4 children but she had some money since her husband had been a successful builder. Soon after she took up with a young man who gave his occupation as gentleman. They had 5 children and then he disappeared. When one of the daughters from this relationship was married, she gave her father's occupation as squatter which I suspect was more accurate. So I think the term gentleman was used rather loosely.
John
-
in Australia Squatters were considered 'gentlemen' often - they got out there and squatted on vast acreages and became the 'squattocracy' of Australia!! They are still there some of them with 'stations' (ranches) the size of Wales in some cases
-
Remember when at school in the 1950's we were told that the correct way to write the name on an envelope to a child it should be Master John Smith, his father would be John Smith Esq and if it was to a business it should be Messrs John Smith & Co.Ltd.
Jean
-
We didn't ;) - we had to write Mr John Smith for Dad! And the address sloped - remember that? and had commas at the end of the lines! :D
-
Think you are right there Wiggy, it was most likely to other men. I have vague recollections of typring envelopes at my first job in 1957 and the boss was always insistant that that Esq was after the name, Perhaps it would have been J.Smith Esq :-\
I still slope the address and end each line with a comma when writing envelopes. Force of habit I suppose.
Jean
-
I'm going to study addresses on envelopes from now on - those which are handwritten and slope must come from people of a certain age - I always did but then the post office asked us not to and I have to remind myself every time I address anything! I think it looks nicer sloped myself! (I bet Hyacinth does too! ;))
-
I've often wondered why some people address envelopes on a slope!
At my school we were told to put the writing level with long edges of the envelope.
Is it a generational thing?
??? ??? ???
Dawn M
-
Is it a generational thing?
Reckon it is - gives us away Jean!! ;D ;D
Actually I believe it is to do with computers reading the mail and sorting it instead of people - that's what we were told anyhow!
-
[quote
Actually I believe it is to do with computers reading the mail and sorting it instead of people - that's what we were told anyhow!
No computers around when I was at school :D :D :D :D
But that's a good point.
Dawn M