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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: stannarp on Sunday 22 May 11 07:52 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
I'm pretty sure I've not posted about this before...
Looking for the death of Elizabeth SELLER (nee BENNETT) in about 1923. She married Thomas Theophilus SELLER in South Africa in 1882 (he was already married to Rosana CARLIN, 1875, Newtown, NSW at the time). They had several children between the date of their marriage and 1902, some born in Australia, others born in South Africa.
The information I have from a previous researcher in my family is that Elizabeth died on 30 Sep 1923 in Australia. I've checked NSW BMD's but not found anyone that could be her, based on this information (Thomas Theophilus died in NSW in 1943).
I would also be interested in any divorce or annulment for Rosana CARLIN (his first wife); have looked, but not sure I'm looking in the right places...it stands to reason that she would have initiated divorce or annulment proceedings upon discovering that he had committed bigamy ??? Also interested in a re-marriage or date of death for her (again, have looked, but not sure I'm looking in the right places)!
Regards,
Patricia
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Did ROSANNA perhaps remarry
Reg 8375 In 1905
EVANS EDWARD
To SELLER ROSEANNA
At SYDNEY
If so, the dissolulution must have been before 1905
Sue
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Hi there,
Do you have her parents given names? That information can help as it should be on the d.c.
Have you tried the digitised newspapers? http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper (edit to add, try this one, it is live) http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home
Have you tried the NSW State Records Office for possible NSW divorce? (There's mention for a Thomas Seller as a respondent, in 1903 however the petitioner not any name you have mentioned in this thread http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/
Although it does stand to reason that your lass may have initiated divorce or annulment upon discovering a likely bigamous relationship, please don't overlook the situation that she would have faced .... likely newspaper headlines, lack of housekeeping funds, expenses to solicitors, action in the Supreme Court of NSW, loss of family home, and need to find alternative means of income.... So not all bigamous relationships were reported. Bigamy was (and still is) a crime, thus it is prosecuted by the Police, but only after they have been actively informed of the crime. Many bigamous relationships were not reported to the police, and not all those reported led to criminal charges being laid.
Under the Resources board here at RChat are sub-boards for each state/territory. BDM and Divorce and applications for Maintenance came under state responsibilities, so records are state based, and not in one central location.
RED POST, so a transcript of that 1905 marriage would confirm if Roseanna Seller declared she was a divorcee, and it so, it should note the details (date, place of divorce etc ...)
Cheers, JM
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I hope you will not mind my asking, but what certified evidence do you have for the information you have given.
I ask because there were at least 2 men named THOMAS THEOPHILUS SELLER in NSW.
This is the death notice of one
in 1890. There are in Memoria inserted by his children too.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/61231501?searchTerm="theophilus seller"&searchLimits=
Is it possible this man was the husband of Roseanna and the one who died in 1943, another entirely?
Sue
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Sands 1900 Directory
Thomas SELLERS, Dibb St Alexandria
Thomas SELLERS, 214 Walker St Redfern.
These are two inner west suburbs of Sydney.
There's also Sellar, Sellor, Seller, and other similar surnames.
From the NSW electoral roll for South Sydney, 1903 (first time females are on the roll) and at the Redfern polling place, there is an Elizabeth Miriam SELLER at her domestic duties at 39 Bourke St.
Cheers, JM
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Hi all
One Thomas T SELLER was married to Harriet SMALL and lived at Grafton. He died in 1890. Harriet remarried and TROVE has her obit.
Essie
DEATH OF A PIONEER. First White Child Born on the Clarence. GRAFTON, Monday. The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842-1954) Tuesday 1 November 1932 p 10
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And NSW Electoral Roll 1878, NEWTOWN (another inner west suburb of Sydney)
Thomas T Seller, a householder on Missenden Road, Newtown
and
Thomas Seller, a freeholder on Missenden Road, Newtown (he was also there on 1870 roll)
and
Frederick Seller, a freeholder on Missenden Road, Newtown (he was also there on 1870 roll)
and from 1878 roll, GRAFTON *
Thomas T Sellers, freeholder, at South Grafton
and from 1870 roll THE CLARENCE *
Thomas Sellars, a freeholder, South Arm, Woodford Island (Grafton)
* I think these would most likely refer to the chap Essie has found
Cheers, JM
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Thomas T SELLER of Grafton was the son of Thomas and Elizabeth.
It appears Frederick SELLER was another son of Thomas and Elizabeth, and the bigamist Thomas T was a son of Frederick (and Susannah nee CRANE).
Essie
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Noticed this NSW BDM index for birth in 1877, registered in the Newtown district (inner west suburb of Sydney)
Thomas F, son of Thomas T and Rosannah (ref 4352/1877)
And this NSW BDM index for birth in 1886 registered in the St Peters district (again, inner west suburb of Sydney)
William I, son of Thomas T and Eliza (ref 7329/1886)
Patricia, I think you will agree that there's every likelihood that there were several different families with the surname SELLER, perhaps there's a common forebear, however, I doubt there's any indication of a bigamous relationship for your Mrs Elizabeth Seller (nee Bennett). May I suggest you contact the person giving you the d o d as 30 Sep1923, Australia and ask for further information (District and State, and any further information from the d.c.)
Cheers, JM
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Also,
Have you considered purchasing a transcript of the 1933 d.c. (on off chance your contact has a typo in the 1923 date) for an Elizabeth M SELLER, death registered at Marrickville (another inner west suburb of Sydney), daughter of (as per index, and only with given names) William and Emily. That Elizabeth could be the one I spotted on the 1903 Electoral Roll at Redfern.
The ref no. is 7881/1933
Cheers, JM
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Have you considered purchasing a transcript of the 1933 d.c. (on off chance your contact has a typo in the 1923 date) for an Elizabeth M SELLER, death registered at Marrickville (another inner west suburb of Sydney), daughter of (as per index, and only with given names) William and Emily. That Elizabeth could be the one I spotted on the 1903 Electoral Roll at Redfern.
The ref no. is 7881/1933
Cheers, JM
Elizabeth Miriam SELLER who died in 1933 was the widow of Charles Frederick SELLER, and mother of Vera and Frederick.
TROVE - The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842-1954) Monday 1 May 1933 p 8 Family Notices
Essie
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Elizabeth Seller is not listed as a death in 1923 on Qld BDMs either (online)
Dawn M
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Hi all,
Thanks for the many replies, sorry, been offline for most of the day, only back now...starting from the bottom...
- my interest in Rosana CARLIN is more for completion than anything else, Elizabeth BENNETT was my g-g-grandmother, I just know very little about these circumstances, and am interested;
- I'll have a better look through the NSW archives, a lot of SELLER info is there, as they appear to have settled predominantly in NSW, did look through a set of divorce info a while ago, but cannot for the life of me remember where, and didn't find anything related, although what I was looking for was actually more about my own g-g-grandmother (thought the reason I couldn't find her death in 1923 might be because she had divorced and re-married!);
- one of the reasons I'm looking for the death of Elizabeth is to see if I can order her death cert, which might give me a clue as to her parents names, etc - we know very little about her (even the last of her surviving grand-children hardly knows anything about her), and there are a large number of Bennett's in the Eastern Cape of South Africa, where she came from, all seemingly related, and I've no idea where she fits in...;
- no certified evidence that I have of bigamy, except that in both South Africa and Australia there is a definite awareness of a scandal in the marriage of my g-g-grandparents...and a contact that I've made in Australia researching this family was also well aware of it (more so than I was, apparently he is still referred to as 'bad uncle Tom'!), this after well over 100 years...apparently he left his wife in Australia to fight in one of our South African frontier wars in the Eastern Cape and returned with another wife who he had met and married here. We knew that we had the SELLER Australian connection, but never really knew what the circumstances were (my gran did know, but she kept quiet about it);
- Elizabeth was definitely in Australia between 1883 and 1886, some of her children are born there, although I haven't found all of them on NSW BMD, in 1901/ 1902 it seems she was in South Africa, at least one of her children being born here, and my g-grandmother met and married my g-grandfather in 1901 (he was a paying guest in her mother's guesthouse);
- there were 2 Thomas Theophilus SELLER's that I know of, one my g-g-grandfather, the other his uncle (brother of Frederick SELLER, 'my' Thomas T's father...). The older one was born in the UK (probably London) in about 1825, the other born in Australia in 1855, son of Frederick SELLER and Elizabeth CRANE. The older Thomas T married Harriet SMALL in 1862, died in 1890, Harriet died in 1932;
- there is a single SELLER forbear (Thomas SELLER, b 1798, England), and I've got a fairly extensive family tree, courtesy of contacts in Australia and South Africa (sadly the person who compiled the original tree in South Africa passed away many years ago so I can't ask her for more info). Have only found 2 Thomas Theophilus SELLERS in it though...although it seems to be a large family, and I certainly don't have all of them, having focused mainly on the younger Thomas T and his father, but with many offspring, it did get complicated!;
Thanks for the insights and input, at least I have more to work with now!
Regards,
Patricia
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Hi all,
Long time no post.
I did (finally) find out what happened to Eliza BENNETT.
After Thomas Theophilus SELLER returned to Australia for the last time after 1910 she moved to Johannesburg, and adopted her mother's first husband's surname (BLEACH), and claiming to be a widow remarried.
When her husband died a year later she remarried again and eventually died of complications from diabetes in 1923.
This is a link to her record on my website. https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~stannardrose/genealogy/tree/tree-list/1453.htm
For anyone else researching Thomas Theophilus Seller, Eliza BENNETT and their interesting lives, I also did a tribute page of their story on my family history website, as it was a story that was deliberately lost to our family for so many years due to the controversial nature of their lives.
https://stannardroseza.blogspot.com/p/eliza-bennett-thomas-theophilus-seller.html?m=1
If you are researching them ... please pm me, as I would love copies of any SELLER family pictures fromtthe 1880's that you may have which might include Eliza. There are none to be found in my family because they were deliberately forgotten, and I would absolutely love to have a picture of Eliza if she appears in any.
Regards,
Patricia