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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Inverness => Topic started by: Birdbrain 1948 on Tuesday 17 May 11 13:36 BST (UK)
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Records I have seen about Long-John Macdonald of Ben Nevis Distillery fame show he was born in Laggan in 1798. I believe he had several siblings including a brother named Alexander but I have no other details and I am very interested to find out more about him. Does anyone know more about this family tree please? I am particularly interested to know where Long John & his siblings were born. The parents are Donald Macdonald and Janet Macdonald and I understand they farmed at Torgulbin. However, John's record clearly states he was born in Laggan.
Also, can anyone help me to find where 'Dolchraig, Stratherne is please? Many thanks for your time.
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Hi Birdbrain
Have you come across this link www.devenport.biz/ryan1.html - Quotes Long John as being one of seven sons.
Regarding Strathearn, this would be in the county of Perthshire, see www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/PER/gaz1882.html.
Monica :)
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Hello Monica. Thanks for such a swift reply - amazing! During my research I was lucky enough to meet with the Campbell sisters of Roybridge and they provided me with a 'Pedigree of Long John Macdonald' and that is where I have seen that he has several brothers as you say. I believe my family has a strong connection to this family and I am interested in finding out more about Alexander - John's younger brother (after Archibald, then Peter, then Alexander.) I have also read the long account of Long John's founding of the Whisky Distillery near Ben Nevis and in fact visited it two years ago now. It was very interesting to see it again; thank you.
My search centres on trying to establish who "Alexander Macdonald, Farmer of Dolchraig, Stratherne" could be as he is named as my great grandfather's 'illegitimate father'on the birth records. This information came as a great surprise as George (Macdonald) was born in Kingussie in Sept 1846, - the family have always thought that Long-John was the father. However, Alexander is named as George's father on all his subsequent records & one indicates he (Alexander) might have died around 1872-1875. Other than that - I have no clues. As I said, my family folklore has always thought that Long John was the father and Long John (according to the chart I have) was born in Laggan, firmly putting them in the area surrounding Kingussie, Newtonmore etc. The whereabouts of Stratherne (Strathearn?) has remained a mystery to me and although Perthshire has been mentioned before I also had this message..."Could Strathern – be Strathdearn – that is the area around Tomatin?" So, I just don't know. Can you help me identify the exact area that Strathearn is in Perthshire? Interestingly I actually lived in Callander for three years, long before I began this journey of searching for the past! Any other help locating the above Alexander Macdonald (such a common name!) would be very gratefully received. Many thanks again for your reply.
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I think you are right to initially focus on the "Alexander Macdonald, Farmer of Dolchraig, Stratherne". He would have been farming there likely through the 1840s to meet the dates of your George's birth.
See from the link I posted earlier that the family were Roman Catholic as Long John was buired at Cille Choirill. Also that lots of genealogy work has already been done on the family. What info was included regarding Long John's brother Alexander, if any, on the family charts you have?
Can I also ask, what do you think is the source to the family stories connecting George to Long John and his family?
Just adding your last post on George for background with what has been found in later years www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,496603.0.html
Monica :)
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Hello again.
The source of the 'belief' comes from my own grandfather (for one) who died in 1966. He was the youngest of George's three children and lived with George up to his death in 1925 in Edinburgh. George Macdonald was known to be "very bitter about his illegitimate status" - in fact he became too fond of a wee dram and I have discovered from my research he was eventually pensioned off from the Edinburgh Police where he had been a sergeant. I have written accounts by my mother (she is still alive and aged 91 and can remember seeing George when she was only four years old) and I quote from her notes about her own father (for that is all they are) name of Douglas McLaggan Macdoanld ...."His father was George Macdonald supposed to be a bastard son of a servant girl & some high up in a Whisky Distillery known as Long John Macdonald. He was given the name but no recognition or money." You can see why I call it family folklore! The 'servant girl' was one Isabella Mackay of Kingussie. However I have spoken with my third cousin June Macdonald -who is aged about 85 and lives in Canada and she says that she was always told this same story as a child too, "and we are definitely related to him". In addition to that she can definitely recall her school’s prize giving occasions at the Usher Hall Edinburgh when Andrew Thomas (Joseph) MacDonald RC Archbishop of St Andrews & Edinburgh gave the prizes and “she knew she was related to him.” This gentlemman appears on the records of Long John's pedigree that I have a copy of, linking us to the family from a different angle. So, it is all unsubstantiated, but one has to wonder how this name was conjured up? I became very interested to find out more in Aug '09 and discovered a lot more, but I was flabbergasted to find, then read the birth record of George which states that he was the illegitimate son of Alexander Macdonald. The family certainly did not know that!
You ask what else I know about Alexander, but sadly that is all I know - just that he was the fifth son to Donald and Janet Macdonald Farmers at Torgulbin. Angus was the first, then John (Long-John) Archibald, Peter, Alexander, Donald and Colin. No dates - no marriage details - that's all. The document states that Long John was born at Laggan - I'd love to know where as that connects the Macdonald family to that area. Any other help would be most welcome - thank you again.
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As I know with the MacDonalds (mine were based in Moidart) you are in for the long haul trying to figure it all out....however, I know someone who may be able to help but I need to contact them via email to see whether they can add to what is here (which I am sure they can given their vast knowledge of these family lines for this area of Inverness-shire that you are looking at). Leave it with me (this person is no longer UK based).
Monica
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Hello again. I meant to add that yes, I was aware that Long-John's family were Roman Catholic and I have visited the graveyard at Cille Choirill twice in fact looking for the grave. It's a wonderful place and I didn't manage to locate Long-John's grave on the first occasion, but did find it when I went back in April last year. When I began this search I was somehow given the telephone number of Rory Macdonald (Long-John's great or 2 x gt grandson) and spoke to him about my family 'beliefs'. He was very kind to listen to me, but I suspect he thought I was some sort of fraud and said that Long John did have an illegitimate daughter whom he recognised, but he had never heard of an illegitimate son born and that in any case 'Long-John' was a common name for any tall gentleman of that Christian name - a point I guess. It is the link with the Whisky Distillery that I find intriguing - where on earth would someone have come up with this story if there wasn't a grain of truth there? I'd love to phone this gentleman again to see if he has any further family history regarding Alexander, but I dare not as I think it would be too intrusive. ???
Incidentally the family 'knowledge' again states that George renounced the Catholic faith because of his bitterness about his status & he was subsequently married within the Church of Scotland. However, I couldn't say whether the family he was placed with (the Grants at Abernethy) were Catholic anyway - probably more family folklore?
Thank you again for your interest.
N.B. I've just seen your subsequent posting and thank you very much indeed. If there is any more detail I can give - please do let me know.
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When you say that George's father, Alexander, may have died in the period of 1872-5, what is the source for this?
Monica
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George's first marriage was recorded in the district of Rothiemurchas on 22nd Feb 1872 when he is aged 25 and a police constable residing in Edinburgh. He married Ann Stewart (or Stuart) from Aviemore. His parents are recorded as Alexander McDonald (I use the spelling on the certificate) Farmer and although there is a scribble near the name I cannot read it. Interesting is the fact that his mother is recorded as Isabella McDonald m.s. Mackay - and she never was a Macdonald as she remained Isabella Mackay until her marraige to a Donald McKillop in 1880! There I was searching for a 'Isabella Macdonald' when all the time she was known as 'Bella McKillop' - such is the nature of these journeys I guess! :o
Sadly Ann Stuart died only three months after they were wed in May 1872 from smallpox. George went on to marry Rosina Fraser (my gt grandmother) at Dalkeith on 2nd July 1875 and although Isabella is still recorded as living, Alexander Macdonald is recorded as "deceased", which is why I thought that he may have died within that period. However, one has to wonder how George knew this if he had no contact with his father or mother? But I don't know this for sure so this is supposition on my part.
Regards, Audrey.
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That all makes sense, Audrey :)
Guess father Alexander showed as 'farmer' on all the documents also?
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Yes, you are right. Alexander Macdonald, farmer is recorded on all three marriage certificates (yes, poor George was married and widowed three times). His third marriage was to Ann Bain on 20th August 1910 in the St Giles area of Edinburgh when once again Alexander is recorded as a farmer and deceased. His mother is still recorded as Isabella Macdonald m.s. Mackay (even though she was Isabella McKillop - so I think George never knew this) but she is also recorded as deceased at that point (she died in 1890) George died on April 20th 1925 aged 78 and his father is recorded again as Alexander Macdonald Farmer. The death was registered by Alexander Grant Macdonald who was my grandfather's elder brother. I guess that would have been the normal custom for the oldest son to record the death, even though George was living with my grandparents at the time. This also suggests to me that George's children were aware that his father was named as Alexander - so again, I have to wonder where this belief that Long John was his father came from. Quite a mystery!
Good night for now ....
Audrey.
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Night, Audrey :)
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Birdbrain, there are some Macdonalds in the Catholic burial ground at the wee ruined church at Aberarder, Laggan. The Laggan Heritage Group have been working recording gravestones at the parish church of late.
Skoosh.
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Hello there - many thanks for your reply. :)
Can you tell me - is there more than one Laggan? I have visited the area around Kingussie & Newtonmore. Is Aberarder in the same area please?
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Birdbrain (don't like calling you this) there are many Laggans but only one parish of Laggan, SW of Newtonmore. The website is http://www.laggan.com/
Aberarder is at the NE end of Loch Laggan, the old roofless church is beside Aberarder House. The small crofting community of Crathie were mostly RCs and used this as a burial ground. The last inhabited croft was abandoned after a housefire when the Spey dam was being built, this construction flooded their land beside the Spey. The chapel , built for them by MacNab of Dalchully, was taken down at the same time. It was below Dun Da Lamh, south of the dam. The folk weren't particularly devout apparently, if there was no priest coming on a Sunday they would just toddle along to the Free Church. You might try the Heritage Group for a list of the gravestone inscriptions. For an overview of the district try
http://wheresthepath.googlepages.com/wheresthepath.htm
Type in Laggan, a few come up, try the third, using the compass on the map on the left page, the aerial photo follows on the right. Skoosh.
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Skoosh, Audrey has given her name now so you can use that instead of BB ;)
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Audrey has sent me the image of the OPR entry for George's christening entry in 1847 to try and help with the attachment.
It reads:
George, illegitimate son of Alexander M'Donald [section to be confirmed] and Isabel MacKay, Kingussie, born 15th Sept. 1846 and baptised 8 May 1847.
Added: Segment of the OPR also posted on the Deciphering and Recognition Help board here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,533377.0.html
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Hello Skoosh.
Many, many thanks for your messages & all your helpful and interesting information. The 'Wheresthepath' website is a wonderful resource & will be so helpful to one who doesn't know the area too well. Thanks. I've yet to check out the Laggan website but I will.
Incidentally I use the 'Birdbrain' name as I chose it for 'twitter' and 'Wildlife Whisperers' which I am a member of as I am very interested in bird watching. Although it can describe my state of mind accurately - ( the clue is in the date!!) ::) I also know that birds have wonderful brains........ I only wish I could aspire to be as clever!! :(As Monica says - Audrey is fine but thanks for your consideration.
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Audrey, notable MacDonald/Macdonell RC families in the west of Laggan parish were those of Knockrome & Garvamore, they were off the Keppoch lot, who hung on despite the MacPhersons. The MacPherson Museum in Newtonmore might be worth a try for info'. As for the birdwatching, haven't heard a cuckoo yet but might be lucky tomorrow, off to the Heilans!
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Hello again Skoosh,
The more I hear the more I want to come and stay a while around the area (again) to try to work out the distances. Sadly, family circumstances rule out a visit for a while - but I live in hope. I was just looking at the map when I saw your message & was trying to work out how likely it might be for a lass who lived in Newtonmore around 1841 to travel to Torgulbin which I think may be around the Loch Laggan area? I'll try the MacPherson Musuem to see what I can discover next. What a journey!
Good luck with the cuckoo hunting. I've not heard one for a couple of years now. However, we are off to the Shetlands in June. Can't wait to see all those gannets & the puffins of course, plus anything else we may be lucky enough to see. Now, I wonder if I have any ancestors from the Sheltands!! ;)
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Audrey, Torgulben's in Glen Spean west of Loch Laggan, have you seen this site on Long John,
http://www.devonport.biz/ryan1.html
Shetland sounds terrific, never been, had a gt' grannie from North Roe, Northmavine.
Cheers, Skoosh.
Sorry about this link Audrey, it would appear to be "no workin!", it was from a descendant of LJM, by the name of Ryan, living in Devonport, can't remember where I got it!
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Hi there currently researching my wife's (Barbara MacDonald) fathers side, they are predominantly from Laggan way i have found so far is that her father is John MacDonald b. 1922 grandfather Stevenson MacDonald b.1893 grand father x2 John MacDonald and x3 possibly Duncan MacDonald .. anyone know of any of these. ? would like to go back further ...
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I am scratching my head over Stratherne.
There is an Invererne in Moray, but there's nothing like a strath anywhere near it.
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Hi Colin
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Is this the family in 1901:
John Mcdonald 45 Gamekeeper b. Laggan
Elizabeth Mcdonald 38 b. Alvie
Stephenson C Mcdonald 8 Son b. Kingussie...birth shows in 1892 on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Jessie Buchanan 65 Mother In Law b. Alvie
Mary Mcdonald 60 Servant
Jane Mcintosh 36 Visitor b. Laggan
Address: Quoich, Kingussie and Insh
Is this Stephenson's burial details?
www.findagrave.com/memorial/202395347/stephenson-macdonald
Monica
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If I am looking at the right census entry for 1861 for John, he is showing as grandson to Duncan? Everyone born in Laggan
Duncan Mcdonald 55 Gamekeeper
Isabella Mcdonald 30 wife
Elizabeth Mcdonald 17 daughter
John Mcdonald 11 Son
Archibald Mcdonald 9 Son
John Mcdonald 6 Gamekeeper Grandson
Andrew Mcdonald 6 Gamekeeper Grandson
Address: Mealgarve, Laggan
You would need to look at the original image on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk to confirm the household entry.
Given the age of Isabella and eldest child in the house, a possible second marriage for Duncan?
Added: I think the age of Isabella is mistranscribed. There is a marriage for Duncan MacDonald and Isabel MacDonald showing in the Old Parish Registers on 18 Feb 1830 in Laggan.
Have you looked at the original marriage entry for John and wife Elizabeth Buchanan to see what details he gave for his parent/s? Possibility he might have been born illegitimately to a daughter of Duncan and also had a twin in Andrew.
From the index on Family Search there are two entries:
John McDonald born on 7 January 1855 in Laggan, Inverness-shire
Mother:Anne Mc Donald
Andrew McDonald born on 7 January 1855 in Laggan, Inverness-shire
Mother:Anne Mc Donald
These two entries would fit well with the household in 1861.
Monica
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Some earlier censuses for the family:
1841 www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14c8a7f4040b9d6ecb93ea/sophia-macdonald-1841-inverness-shire-laggan-1839-?locale=en Confirming a daughter Ann in the household (although relationships not shown on the 1841 census).
1851 www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14cd7df4040b9d6ed17f1c/sophia-mcdonald-1851-inverness-shire-laggan-1839-?locale=en
A couple of entries that could fit for Ann in 1851 working away from home.
Monica
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Suggest once you have confirmed details further, your next step will be to check the death certs for Duncan and wife Isabella. They were still alive in 1881, also showing at Mealgarve, Laggan (the Gamekeeper's House it seems). This will hopefully let you confirm their parents' details to let you work back to the next generation.
There is this possible death entry for Duncan:
Duncan MCDONALD
Agee 81
Mother's maiden name MCPHERSON
1888
104/ 8
Laggan
And Isabella, a possible one for her:
Isabella MCDONALD
Age 89
Mother's maiden name MCPHERSON
1897
104/ 8
Laggan
Lots of photos of the area around Melgarve here https://m.geograph.org.uk/of/melgarve
In respect of Ann, mother to John and Andrew, you would guess that she went on to marry and have a family...something else to follow up on ;)
As to who the father was, not sure you will find that info really unless some record was made at the Kirk (if the family were presbyterian) or any action was taken for ailment. Also the possibility that John and Andrew may have known the name of their father and gave it for the record at the time of their marriages. Take care though as very often this detail was ficticious.
Monica
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Thanks so so much for your reply , that's amazing.
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Colin, I did make further headway last night before I went to bed ;D
Ann went on to marry a William Fraser in Laggan in 1859 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT5F-FNL William was 29 at the time of his marriage and a shepherd like his father John. Mother Ann McIntosh, deceased.
You need to verify your steps as you trace Ann as I can see more that one couple with those names having children in the same areas at that time.
Monica
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I found a family tree on this group on Ancestry www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/166027459/person/292158071815/facts You need a subs to view and I don't know if you have this. No original documents attached. Working from the details there....which all need to be confirmed on Scotlands People ::)...I note the following:
Duncan MacDonald
1807–1888
Birth 5 MAR 1807 Laggan, Inverness-shire
Death 2 SEP 1888 Laggan, Inverness-shire
Father William MacDonald
Mother Ann McPherson
Isabella MacDonald
1808–1897
Birth ABT 1808 Laggan, Inverness-shire
Death 20 JUN 1897 Laggan, Inverness-shire
Father William MacDonald
Mother Ann McPherson
That explains why on the SP death index both mothers show with the McPherson name.
All need confirming, Colin.
Monica
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This looks like Ann on the 1871 census, following her marriage and with a growing family:
William Fraser 38 Under Foreste? b. Alvie, Invernessshire
Ann Fraser 38 b. Laggan
Sophia Fraser 11
Ann Fraser 8
Duncan Fraser 6
Isabella Fraser 3
Jane Fraser 1
Isabella Mckenzie 22 Servant
Address: Dromanguish, Contin, R & C
By 1881, the family are at Glashcarnoch, Kinlochluichart, Contin. Three more children:
Maggie Fraser 9
Tina Fraser 6
John Fraser 4
William Fraser is now showing as a Gamekeeper. The family remained there until 1901 at least and show on the census there. I think this is Ann's death:
Annie MCDONALD/FRASER
Age 64
Mother's maiden name MCDONALD
1898
060/2 5
Kinlochluichart
Monica
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Well done indeed Monica, a Crathy birthplace, formerly 30 houses, indicates that the McDonald's were probably RC's.
Bests,
Skoosh.
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thankks again you have been so busy, we earlier today founf the marraige of the tow but then could not find where they went. keep up the great work. colin
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The houses shown at Melgarve on Geograph were built by Sir John Ramsden 1870-80 so presumably Duncan & Isabella died there. The house the family occupied in the 1850s/60s was possibly a bit like the black-houses in the Newtonmore museum?
The Upper Spey, from Garva Bridge to beyond Loch Spey, was formerly subdivided and let as sheilings to farms lower down the Spey and only occupied in summer. These McDonald's were hardy folk wintering at nearly 1200 ft. The business of keepers & shepherds living isolated in such remote locations was a result of the Clearances.
A Good New Year folks,
Skoosh.
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And a happy one to you too, Skoosh :)
Monica
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Second thoughts folks, raised Melgarve with a local and its quite possible that the Geograph photos of Melgarve is indeed the house that Duncan the keeper & Isabella lived in. The south front has one door & a window, the north has a door and two windows and is adjacent to General Wade's Melgarve bridge of about 1730. Now a bothy the front door accesses the livingroom with a small bedroom off with a north window. The stairs lead to two bedrooms, one large which covers the stable below with north door and window.
Sir John Ramsden bought Glenshiro & Sherramore estates to add to his Ardverikie (the big hoose on "Monarch of the Glen") holdings and proceeded to build lodges, farms etc'
His architect John Rhynd designed and built a number of shepherd's houses on the Upper Spey & Glen Roy with the fanks well away from the houses and a small byre/stable at the west end. Very fancy for shepherd's houses of the time but these don't match the lay-out of Melgarve or the joinery work.
Dating 1870/80 the house nearest Melgarve doesn't fit the census returns for 1851/61 and the probability is that Melgarve was built by a former laird. In any case, if Duncan died at Melgarve in the 1880's that's the house
Bests,
Skoosh.
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Good pic of Melgarve, probably built in the late 40s, Melgarve was the drove stance for cattle coming over the Corrieyairack. By the middle of the century some estates were charging so much per score for droves overnighting at the stance so a house at the back of beyond makes sense?
https://m.geograph.org.uk/photo/4023404
By a Nic Bullivant, this is actually the back of the house.
Bests,
Skoosh.