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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: billnkempsey on Tuesday 17 May 11 08:02 BST (UK)
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I'm trying to solve a long-standing family mystery. One of my gg-grandmothers is Ellen Jane Eliza McCluskey, at least that is the name on her marriage certificate dated 25 June 1868 (Echuca, Victoria, Aust). On that certificate her parents are Hugh McCluskey and Ann (??ison) and her birthplace is given as Glasgow. Her father's occupation is Stationer.
She died in 1873 (5 Aug, Barma NSW, just across the Murray River from Echuca). Her death certificate lists her parents as Hugh McLuskey and Ann Morrison and states she was born in Glasgow and 'has spent 7 years in NSW'.
Nobody has ever found any records of Ellen outside Australia, nor any hint of a Hugh McCluskey/McLuskey (Stationer) and Ann (Morrison) of Glasgow.
Does anyone have any information about such people?
Otherwise, does anyone have any hints about were I might search for such info.
Never found a shipping list with her on, but she may have arrived as a maid or similar.
Many thanks for reading this far!
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Hi billnkempsey
From what you have for Ellen, what do you estimate her approx. birth year to be? It will help people trying to do any searches :)
Monica
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Depending on what her est. birth year was, these are the only census entries I am seeing at present:
1841:
Hugh McLusky 34, Cotton Spinner b. Ireland
Ann McLusky 34 b. Ireland
Mary McLusky 7
Ella McLusky 5
James McLusky 3
Hugh McLusky 6 Months
Address: Cowcaddens Street
1851:
Ann Mclusky 50 b. Ireland
Maryann Mclusky 17 Power Loom Weaver/cotton
Helen Mclusky 15 Power Loom Weaver/cotton
James Mclusky 13 Rope Maker (app)
Address: 39 Piccadilly St, Barony
Monica :)
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Just following through with these census entries for this family through to 1861:
Ann McLusky 61, formerly laundress b. Ireland
Ellen McLusky 24, Cotton (factory) Weaver b. Glasgow
Eliza Marrison 34, visitor b. Ireland...as transcribed, likely Morrison?
Address: 6 Piccadilly Street, Anderston, Glasgow Barony
There is a death showing on the official pay to view site www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk for an Ann Morrison/McLusky who died in the St Rollox area of Glasgow in 1883. This Ann shows a birth year c. 1807. A possibility for the Ann we have perhaps been seeing in the censuses above?
Monica
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Sorry for the string of posts, billnkempsey :P I am just posting as I find info (hope info makes sense!).
What was Ellen's religious denomination? From the site linked above, Scotlands People, there are four entries showing on the Roman Catholic Birth/Baptism database for the children of a Hugh McLusk(e)y and Ann(e) Morrison at Glasgow St Andrew's between 1830-1851.
Spellings are rigid on SP, so best to search with wildcards to pick up all variants. I have been searching for a Hugh McLusk* and an Ann* Morrison, this is bringing up the four entries.
Monica
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Have you discounted this shipping entry:
Ellen McCluskey, 21, Scottish. Arrival in Melbourne from Liverpool on the 'Star of England' on 23 Jan. 1865
I know age seems light but people's ages varied enormously on all sort of records...
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Hi Monica,
How many posts? You have been busy!
Many thanks for the info and especially for the time taken.
Firstly the shipping. Where on earth did you find that! No matter where I've looked (online), her name hasn't appeared. Mind you, there's a division in the data at 1865, so maybe something isn't indexed correctly over here? (Yes, I'm clutching at straws there, the paper records are in Melbourne and I'm not down there very often.) At least I have a target date and ship now. Ta!
As for denomination? No information, although her marriage was conducted by a CoE minister, but that surely proves nothing in 1868 rural Australia. Sadly she died, following childbirth, 5 years later (presiding minister again CoE). As no child is recorded for 1873 this was a complete tradegy.
I suspect you have found the family, allowing for Ellen trimming a few years off her age when she married. Interestingly (suspiciously?) her age at marriage is the same as the groom! On my father's side we've just discovered a bride who also did that, plus ca change...! I'd always estimated the birth year as 1843, from the age of 25 given on the marriage cert in 1868, looks like it was really 1836 and a blushing bride of 32.
So Hugh either died or shot through between 1841 and 1851, I can't imagine that being a cotton spinner in Victorian Glasgow was a safe occupation. At least I have a date range now.
You're suggesting that going onto scotlandspeople would bring up some likely records? I haven't checked that site before because the information I had was so sketchy, guess its time to bite the bullet. (Speaking of which, I hope you have not had to pay for any of these searches, that would be service above and beyond.)
The bad news, as I understand it, is that now the search must now move to Ireland, where the records are sadly incomplete unless they're Northern Irish(?). Do you have any hints?
Again many thanks
Cheers
Bill
PS Just found the shipping record!
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Hi Bill
That's great that you have found the shipping entry. Hope it includes additional info which is of use.
Some guides here on RootsChat that might help:
Where to start with Scottish Research www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,24468.0.html
Optimise Scotlandspeople searches www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,43916.0.html
As for Irish roots... :'(....what can I say, except for hard! If we do have the right family, haven't seen any reference as yet to where in Ireland parents may have originated from (sometimes census entries can include this). Hopefully you will be able to trace Ann Morrison/McCluskey's death entry which should include her parents names (if known to the informant). That's probably the next stage. Hugh will be a puzzle though, with his likely death before the start of official registration in Scotland from 1855.
Monica :)
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Catholic marriage records from SP
19/06/1831 MCCLUSKEY HUGH and ANN MORRISON at BARONY GLASGOW CITY CITY/LANARK 622/00 0160 0384
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Thanks again Monica.
Many thanks to sancti, I had just noticed that one my family sources mentioned a marriage in June 1831 so I check there before checking here. Glad I did, the mystery deepens (for me, anyway).
I found the 19 June 1831 record (McCluskey/Morrison) in the OPR section. Then read sancti's message and saw 'Catholic' and checked there. That register has the marriage on 14 July 1831 between McLusky and Morrison? Does that make sense. Could this have been a mixed marriage? Or was it normal to do both if you were Catholic in Glasgow? The Catholic record also seems to contain a wealth of information but its very faint. It starts 'Hugh McLusky born in the parish of B....' but I can't read the rest. Is there a way of getting a good copy of that entry? (I'm only a newby, so remember to tell me the obvious things! Yes, I'm hoping its only a button press away.)
I'll print it out and see if that helps.
As Monica says, a place name would help!
Cheers
Bill
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You might be very lucky Bill and get some indication of Irish origins from the RC marriage entry that Sancti has found! You can contact SP regarding an illegible image www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?r=1210 If you explain to them the problem, they will arrange for the image to be enhanced and will send this to you via email. They are very quick to respond to this type of query.
You will sometimes find for this period that you are in that RC marriages were included in the Old Parish Register entries (for the established Church of Scotland, ie presbyterian). Not a sign of a mixed marriage, most likely an efficient Church of Scotland clerk recording all the events in their parish as it was expected for the Church of Scotland to try to do.
Monica
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That was a quick response! Ta.
I'll try contacting SP and see what they say. All I can read is parish of B... county D.... and then faint lines after that. Although the parish for Ann seems to have been left blank! Maybe the mixed marriage isn't out of the question? (But could just be too faint.)
Cheers
Bill
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The OPR entry is probably the first announcement of the banns 19 June and the actual marriage would be the date in July
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Thanks for the info sancti! That makes some sense of it.
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Sorry for the string of posts, billnkempsey :P I am just posting as I find info (hope info makes sense!).
What was Ellen's religious denomination? From the site linked above, Scotlands People, there are four entries showing on the Roman Catholic Birth/Baptism database for the children of a Hugh McLusk(e)y and Ann(e) Morrison at Glasgow St Andrew's between 1830-1851.
Spellings are rigid on SP, so best to search with wildcards to pick up all variants. I have been searching for a Hugh McLusk* and an Ann* Morrison, this is bringing up the four entries.
Monica
Just checked the RC births and they are double entries so only 2 births showing
Birth 11/09/1832 Bapt. 16/09/1832 MCLUSKY FRANCIS - HUGH MCLUSKY/ANN MORRISON M GLASGOW, ST ANDREW'S
Birth 19/09/1837 Bapt. 24/09/1837 MCLUSKEY HARROLD - HUGH MCLUSKEY/ANNE MORRISON M GLASGOW, ST ANDREW'S
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My gtgtgrandfather Edward McDevitt aka M'Daid married Elizabeth M'Cluskey I believe in County Derry 1842 RC ceremony.. Their son my gtgrda John was in Calton Glasgow 1855 or so til about 1877. He tho Roman Catholic married a Presbyterian. One of my gt uncles has Closkey as a middle name. The children were raided in both religions.
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Thanks again for all the info.
The two births are interesting, especially given that the 4 children that appear in the 1841 census don't get a registration but the 2 registered aren't on the census? Just how many Hugh and Ann McLusky's are there?
Hugh McLusky (nor Hugh jnr) don't appear on the 1851 census, but I can't find a death notice for either. (There is a Hugh McLusky who died in 1874 at age 7, but he's the only one I can find.)
Now checked the death notice Monica directed me to - gives Ann Morrison's parents! So that's a step forward. This notice also indicates that Hugh was dead by 1883, but I suspect long dead by then.
A historian of Scots in Australia filled me in on the situation at the time and tells me that the double entry was required to get formal registration of the marriage. Also explained why St Andrew's is referred to as a 'chapel' in the marriage registration. (The entry before mine is signed by Andrew Scott! Can't make out who officiated at Hugh and Anne's however. William something or other)
Looks like Hugh hails from Banagher parish, county Derry, while Anne (probably) comes from Armagh. You haven't come across any Anne Morrisons (dau of James and Mary Morrison) have you Mona Lisa?
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Obtained an image of Ann McLusky's death registration, listed as Pauper, widow of Hugh McLusky Cotton spinner, which fits with the 1841 census data. Lists her place of death as City Poorhouse, Glasgow. Is it possible to access those records online?
Intriguingly it lists her daughter as Mrs(?) Cairney, must be Mary/Maryann? Something for me to follow up?
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Intriguingly it lists her daughter as Mrs(?) Cairney, must be Mary/Maryann? Something for me to follow up?
Which gives you your next piece of info! From the 1871 census:
Michael Cairney 50, American Shipp Of Agent (?spl) b. Scotland
Mary Cairney 37 b. Glasgow
Joseph Cairney 15 Apprentic Engine Fitter At Work b. Glasgow
Mary Cairney 14 Domestic Servant b. Glasgow
Ann Cairney 12 b. Glasgow
Hugh Cairney 8 b. Glasgow
Michael Cairney 3 b. Glasgow
Ann Morrison 60 Grandmother, b. Ireland...this should read mother in law as the stated relationship should be that to the head of the household, in this case Michael Cairney.
Address: 17 Dumbarton Road, Anderston Glasgow
From IGI, actual extract from the OPRs (image should be on SP)
Michael CAIRNIE and Mary Ann MCCLUSKIE married (or banns) on 12 Jan. 1854 in Barony, Lanarkshire
Monica
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The Cairneys in 1881:
Michael Cairney 60, America & Foreign Shipping Agent b. Glasgow
Mary Cairney 46
Mary Cairney 22
Annie Cairney 21
Matthew Cairney 14
Peter Hughes 2 grandson b Glasgow
Address: 300 South Wellington St, Glasgow Hutchesontown
:-\ Wonder why mother Ann Morrison ended up a pauper at the poorhouse a few years later?
Monica
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Hi MonicaL,
It is not possible to thank you enough for your help. At this rate we'll have some living relatives by the end of the week!
I notice on the 1881 census that Annie Do, hence Cairney, is listed as married. My guess is that Peter Hughes is her son?
I'll try and check that out.
Cheers
Bill
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Peter could be either Mary Jnr or Annie's son perhaps? If you are searching for a birth reg for him, his surname may be down as Cairney rather than Hughes. If he was illegitimate, unless reputed father accepted paternity and accompanied mother to register the birth, the birth registration of baby would be under mother's surname. Nothing to stop the child being known by reputed father's surname though as they grew up...
Watch your spelling variations on Cairney on SP! Might be worth searching it as Ca*nr*, if you have a problem finding entries.
Monica :)
Added: Possible birth in Anderston, Glasgow for a Peter Cairns in 1878?
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Hi MonicaL,
Peter Hughes, born 15/2/1879 to Peter Hughes and Annie Hughes (mn Cairney). Reported by Mary Cairney. I'm looking for the marriage as we speak.
The image quality on that one is appalling, I've asked if they can pep it up a bit.
B
PS Like you I'm wondering if there actually was a marriage, but you never know.
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I stand corrected!
31/12/1877 Peter Hughes married Annie Cairney in the presence of Michael and Mary Cairney, (MC listed as shipping agent).
B
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Why do we always expect the worst ::) ;D Great you found Peter's birth entry under Hughes...and now the marriage!
Monica
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Now the trail runs cold.
Following your hint I looked for a death for Michael Cairney (between 1881 and 1883, initially) but no luck. (A Michael Carney died at Birkenhead in 1885, but you only get the index entry in England, so ...) Also can't find any 1891 census records for Annie or Peter Hughes. I do find a Mary Cairney with the right age, widow, living alone in 1891. (Although, interestingly, she is living next door to Agnes Morrison! An unmarried cousin, perhaps? Not knowing how they divided up the census data, maybe they are sharing? Truth be known, it could be Morrisey not Morrison.)
Probably time to get on with the days work now.
B
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Hi Bill
Sometimes when it gets hard to identify someone on the censuses, might be worth checking for deaths.
On Scotlands People, it can be easier to search for married women's deaths as you can search with both maiden and married surnames. Word of caution here though....You cannot tell from the indexed search results which surname is which, ie, which is married or maiden name, until you look at the image :-\
I can only see one possible entry for Ann McLuskey/Hughes' death. There is one showing in Lanarkshire in 1931, with that Ann having a birth year c. 1859 which would fit for your Annie (with the previous health warning about not knowing which way round the surnames may be!).
Monica
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Hello,
I know this is along shot but I have a William Mccluskey born Ireland married Agnes McAdam also born Ireland. William was born abt 1815 and died 1867 his parents are listed as John McCluskey and Helen Toole. William and his family lived in Rutherglen, Lanarkshire.
HS
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Hi HS,
Could be? The dates are compatible at least, your William in 1815 and my Hugh in 1806.
With MonicaL's fantastic help I've managed to (educated) guess that Hugh was born, or at least lived, in Banagher parish in Derry. And that's about the sum total of my knowledge of Hugh! Do you have any idea what the best approach in Ireland is?
Cheers
Bill
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One mystery solved and three new ones the result! Sound familiar?
With the help of MonicaL and others managed to find my initial answers, best if I ask the others in separate posts:
Where did Anne Morrison and Hugh McLusky really come from and what are the circumstances surrounding Ann's death in the City Poorhouse?
Thanks to all
Bill
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Bill,
You can start a new thread on these, just remember to add a link to this post so that people can see what info you have so far so that searches are not repeat and people focus on new stuff!
Monica :)