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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Herefordshire => Topic started by: Nostalgic_One on Sunday 15 May 11 12:24 BST (UK)
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Ancestry has transcribed a birthplace on a census record as PI N.K., Hereford. I'm not familiar with the area and was wondering whether anybody could throw any light on where that might be?
Many thanks,
Nostalgic One
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Place Unkown
NK is the shortened version of Unknown used on census returns and I would say that PI is actuallu Pl.
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N.K. = Not Known
I think too that PI should be PL _place
Suz
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Hi there
Found a place this morning on the net which gives small villages and defunct hamlets from about the 13th centuary onwards. I presume its a place something like that?
Try looking at A Vision of Britain through time. You might find a small place on there
regards Sandymc
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Thanks for the responses.
I've just had a look at the original image again and it says something, I'm sure of it. Looks like 'Hereford (Phank).' I've attached it and would be hugely grateful if somebody could have a look.
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Is this the only census in which the relevant person appears? If not, what birthplace is given for him/her in other census years?
Please can you provide the census reference for the extracted entry?
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Unfortunately yes, this is the only census of any use. (It's the 1851 census, the person died in 1853, and the 1841 census only indicates whether people were resident in the same county they were born in).
The reference is:
HO107/1581
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So that others can find her, she's Elizabeth MACKINTOSH, 76, enumerated in Camberwell. I see from the entry immediately below hers (her daughter Catharine MACKINTOSH) that Catharine's birthplace was given as "London (Ph n.k.)". In those circumstances the bit in brackets for each of them must surely be something along the lines of "Parish not known".
"Ph" is an old abbreviation for Parish, and N.K. was often used the the censuses to denote "Not Known".
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Are you sure? I'm not convinced they do in fact say the same thing, even though the transcriber evidently thought they did. Daughter Catherine was definitely born in the parish of St. Martin in the Fields (this is very well documented).
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Yes, I'm sure that's what it says. There's one on the previous page too: "City of London (Ph. n.k.)". Later in the same schedule there is a "Hampshire (Ph n.k.)" and a "Dorsetsh. (Ph n.k.)", among other examples.
it doesn't necessarily mean the person themselves didn't know where they were born. Because the household schedules don't survive one has no idea how legible (or otherwise) they were. The enumerator whose job it was to transcribe the information onto the enumeration schedules may not have been able to discern the answers, or the householder may not have precisely specified the place of birth.
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In those circumstances the bit in brackets for each of them must surely be something along the lines of "Parish not known".
"Ph" is an old abbreviation for Parish, and N.K. was often used the the censuses to denote "Not Known".
I agree with Anna, I think they both say Ph N K, i.e. Parish not known.
Which could mean either that the head of household had forgotten the exact place of birth or that the enumerator couldn't read the schedule.
I have several examples in my own tree where someone apparently forgot where they'd been born, despite the fact that they'd given the place-name in previous and subsequent censuses.
Jennifer
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Thank you both. How annoying, I had hoped to be able to narrow down my search for baptism records a little.
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I searched for quite awhile for a 1778 Elizabeth Mackintosh to see where she could be born and why the parish was unknown. It then dawned on me that if she is a widow on the 1851 census that Mackintosh was not her maiden name so unless we find out who her husband was we are going to find it hard to find out where her parish was??? Have we any idea who he was so we can go back to 1778 to find out what parish in Hereford she was born?
regards Sandymc
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Oh you are so very kind Sandy. The kindness and helpfulness of people on these boards is most impressive.
She was born Elizabeth Bourchier and died in 1853 at the age of 85, which would make her birthdate around 1768. I actually started a thread about her here the other day. Somebody else found me a reference from Canon Pyon for that year which is a possibility. If you come across any other possibles, I'd be delighted.
I believe her family later moved to Westminster if that's any help.
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Hi again,
Thanks for the maiden name and I think I have found the same as you mentioned at Canon Pyon.
I think it is your Elizabeth as there does not seem to be alot of children
called Elizabeth in that area around 1768.
Elizabeth Boucher christened 9th August 1767 at Canon Pyon
parents are Thomas and Catherine.
Thomas Bouchier christened 14th June 1738 at Hope Mansell parents
Henry and Joan.
The i is missing out of Bouchier for Elizabeth but that is not unusual as not
everyone could spell properly. I also surmise that the reason Elizabeth
didnt know where in Hereford she was born could be the fact that they
moved to Westminster when she was young and probably never went back
to the village for whatever reason. Even in my younger days I as a child was not told everything by my parents and grew up in ignorance as we didnt have family discussions about anything lol.
I would say that this is a good bet to be your Elizabeth especially as her Mother was called Catherine and she also has a daughter with the same name.
Hope this is your family
regards Sandymc
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Well done Sandy! I think that may indeed be 'my Elizabeth.' She went on to have fourteen children (possibly more!) of whom Catherine was the youngest. There was also a Thomas amongst them. I'll let you know if I find any more information which confirms it, such as proof of a Thomas Bourchier who moved to Westminster. I don't suppose the baptism record hinted at occupations at all, did it?
Many thanks once again.
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Hi
No occupation was mentioned I am afraid. I did have a look for you on deaths in London and there are quite a few Thomas Bourchiers. As you may know the surname is of French dissent and the Hugoenoets came to England in the 1700's after being slaughtered over in France because they were Protestants. There is a non conformist death in London of a Thomas Bourchier in 1826 but it doesnt state what year he was born. Thomas would have been in his 80's by then. I did find a young Thomas and wondered if that was Elizabeths son. He married a Isabella and had quite alot of children, dont know if you know who his wife was?
There is a coat of arms for the Bourchier if you do a search. It is also interesting reading about the Huguenots.
I love researching ancestry as you get to know so much history as well,
good luck with the search.
regards
Sandymc
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Thank you Sandy, you are so kind. You're right, the Bourchiers are very interesting, aren't they?
I'm almost certain that Elizabeth's son Thomas (Mackintosh) married a Mary Pead. I'll have a look for the Thomas Bourchier 1826 though. Elizabeth herself lived to be in her 80s after all, so it's entirely possible that her father did too.
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My husband was born in Mexico with the last name of Mackintosh. We have information on Thomas Mackintosh and one of his sons who came from England with him. We finally made the connection to England/Scotland last spring when we Googled "Thomas Mackintosh and Guadalupe y Calvo". We found a reference in the Gentleman's Quarterly that had his name in connection with the marriage of his daughter. Would be happy to share information with you if you would be interested.
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Many thanks for your message ThreeMacks. I have a tree on Ancestry called 'The Mackintosh Family Of Totteridge Lodge,' which may well be of interest to you. Members of the family who are known to have migrated to Mexico from London are Ewen Clark Mackintosh, his brother Henry Alexander Mackintosh and their nephew William Lyster Hay Mackintosh.
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I have reviewed your tree quite a few times. I have a tree on Ancestry.com as well. You are welcome to view it too. Mackintosh Family Tree is the name of it. Thomas and his son William both came to Mexico in the northern part. They owned a mine there in Guadalupe y Calvo, Chihuahua. They built a mint there. It is high in the mountains in southern Chihuahua. We have been there and photographed. It has been turned into a federal prison so we were only able to take photos of the outside. I need to take pictures of my old photos so I can load them on Ancestry.
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Many thanks for your message and I you have found my tree useful. You must mean William Henry Pead Mackintosh? How fascinating. I don't currently have paid membership to Ancestry. I hope to do so again in future however.