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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: owenc on Saturday 14 May 11 17:14 BST (UK)
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Hi i have recently come across information about the plantation locally and it seems that the land here was owned by Lord McClelland from Kirkcudbright and his wife Lady McClelland it looks like they have brought alot of people over with them most likely my ancestors, that is what i'm wondering about. Would all have the planters have came from Kirkcudbright or the north of england and the rest of southern scotland? Because looking at the 1630 muster rolls for here there are lots and lots of surnames which are not to be found in kirkcudbright most of whom are from the north of england such as Carruthurs which is from northumbria, would this mean that they highered people from all over southern scotland and Northern england then? Because i had always thought that the people they brought where people who lived on their estates in kirkcudbright, on that do they have any other estates in the scotland or england that i am not aware of that they could have brought people from?I have found reference to someone possibly from my family and by going by the spelling it looks as though he is from Northern england i have looked at familysearch.org for references at that time and every single one of them is from Northumbria. Is there any books on the estate that tell (i know there are estate records but i dont think they tell you where the people came from) you where the people who rented out each plot of land came from?
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Owen,
It is not clear which lands you are talking about. If it is Sir Robert McClelland then see http://www.ulsterheritage.com/forrest/londonderry.htm
Sir Robert had his castle in the townland of Ballycastle in the parish of Aghanloo and the base of the castle is supposedly still visable as the base of a farm outbuilding.
Regards
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Owen,
It is not clear which lands you are talking about. If it is Sir Robert McClelland then see http://www.ulsterheritage.com/forrest/londonderry.htm
Sir Robert had his castle in the townland of Ballycastle in the parish of Aghanloo and the base of the castle is supposedly still visable as the base of a farm outbuilding.
Regards
I'm talking about the churchlands of lady mcclelland in coleraine (don't know where though). Anyone know?
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Owen,
Sir Robert McClelland leased the Clothworkers Guild lands around Coleraine as well as the Haberdashers lands around Limavady. It was a huge estate but I do not know if his wife leased Church lands in the Coleraine area.
Regards
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Owen
The "Plantation" referred to the plantation of people, from one country (usually Scotland or England) into Ireland. The people were not planters, and there were no plantations, in the Caribbean/USA sense.
Hibee
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Owen,
Sir Robert McClelland leased the Clothworkers Guild lands around Coleraine as well as the Haberdashers lands around Limavady. It was a huge estate but I do not know if his wife leased Church lands in the Coleraine area.
Regards
Yes she did it says on the record lady mcclellands churchlands I think that must be down by castlerock and downhill that has to be my ancestor .. I'm just wondering Though where they got their people from? Like what area of Scotland or england because it couldn't have just been kirkcudbrightshire.. Did they have any other estates I'n Scotland or England besides Kirkcudbrightshire that they could have gotten tenants from where I could look...
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Owen
The "Plantation" referred to the plantation of people, from one country (usually Scotland or England) into Ireland. The people were not planters, and there were no plantations, in the Caribbean/USA sense.
Hibee
I think you'll find it was a plantation and a very large one at that 200000 people if that's not a plantation I dont know what is!?
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Owen,
It is not clear which lands you are talking about. If it is Sir Robert McClelland then see http://www.ulsterheritage.com/forrest/londonderry.htm
Sir Robert had his castle in the townland of Ballycastle in the parish of Aghanloo and the base of the castle is supposedly still visable as the base of a farm outbuilding.
Regards
Where is this building I lice on the windyhill road so I'm not very far from Ballycastle townland what road is the building on?? It would be very very intresting to see
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Owen,
We are not allowed to post details of living people or current addresses on this site so I will send you a personal message.
Regards
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hi Owen
From your first post query - no they weren't all from Kircubdright. My family name comes from Ayrshire and there were 4 brothers of that name 'planted' in northern Ireland - Down and Antrim.
Historically, the people were transplanted from Scotland (mainly) and England. The authorities in England were trying to subjugate the Irish (catholics) by overwhelming them with people of the 'correct faith'. It's well documented in numerous books.
What people are trying to tell you is that "The Plantation" in Irish terms has nothing in common with sugar planations and the like, in the Caribbean / America etc. :D :D :D
Dawn M
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hi Owen
From your first post query - no they weren't all from Kircubdright. My family name comes from Ayrshire and there were 4 brothers of that name 'planted' in northern Ireland - Down and Antrim.
Historically, the people were transplanted from Scotland (mainly) and England. The authorities in England were trying to subjugate the Irish (catholics) by overwhelming them with people of the 'correct faith'. It's well documented in numerous books.
What people are trying to tell you is that "The Plantation" in Irish terms has
nothing in common with sugar planations and the like, in the Caribbean / America
etc. :D :D :D
Dawn M
Hello thanks for Replaying... Your post confirms my thinkings... The mcclellands sound awfully similar to that of the people who planted Graham nortons people ... In that they highered tenants from all over.. But I'm trying to find out if they have
Any other estates that aren't in kirkcudbright were they highered tenants from so
I could try and look to see if my family name pops up so that when I get the
actual estate records I could locate them!? You are lucky because your name only
has one origin my name has two origins one from northern Scotland and one from
northern England both with different spellings which Is getting annoying because I
have found them in records with both English and Scottish spellings so now I have
no idea what to look out for but overall they seen to be closest to the English
one...But I have nearly 100 percent confirmed them as planters as if that man Is My ancestor then they are almost certainly planters as they are in the 1630 muster roll and as far as I'm aware no natives where aloud ... Just wondering did tenants come from Northumberland frequently? As it looks like the spelling in the list is from there (I have checked familysearch and this spelling is only found there) ...
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Owen,
Have a look at;
http://ancestryireland.com/scotsinulster/Scottish%20Undertakers/Scottish_Undertakers.html
The darker the shading the heavier the emmigration to Ulster.
Regards
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Owen,
Have a look at;
http://ancestryireland.com/scotsinulster/Scottish%20Undertakers/Scottish_Undertakers.html
The darker the shading the heavier the emmigration to Ulster.
Regards
Hi Thanks by looking at that the mcclellands are good wee bit from northumberland... It looks as though they mustn't highered tenants from somewhere else I'll ask again does anyone know if they had any other estates besides in kirkcudbright??
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The Muster Rolls contains mostly "planted" tenants, but some "native" Irish as well. A cursory check of the Rolls for the Mercers (Kilrea/Swatragh) and Ironmongers(Garvagh/Aghadowey) Estates shows about 7% with gaelic names (i.e. not including those Irish who anglified their names). The Crown authorities were more interested in increasing the proportion of "loyal subjects" than simply the proportion of protestants (although the rivalry/wars with Catholic powers on the Continent like France and Spain often put the loyalty of Catholics under suspicion, so there was a considerable overlap).
Robert McClelland (Lord Kirkcudbright) was the chief tenant of the Haberdashers and Clothworkers Estates and also had large estates in Donegal and Co Down as well as his Scottish lands. He was also heavily involved in the Courts of King James I and King Charles I in London so travelled extensively from his residence at Ballycastle. His wife was a Montgomery of Newtownards and his wide range of influence means his tenants could have come from anywhere. Following his death, the Haberdashers lands passed to his son-in-law, Sir Robert Maxwell.
According to JS Curl's book "The Londonderry Plantation", "McClelland brought many members of his family and other Scots from Galloway to his lands in County Londonderry". Curl also note that in 1622 he had 100 "british" tenants to 125 "native" tenants on his Haberdashers Estate. By 1630 he had the highest number of british settlers of any of the estates in Co Londonderry ("many of whom were Scots, encouraged to settle by McClelland").
Hope this helps.
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Hi thanks very much for that it helps alot! It looks as though according to that the planters came from southern Scotland but not just kirkcudbright as I suspected... That's that cleared at least now I will know a general area to look at but I suspect that my ancestors come from somewhere east of kirkcudbright just beside the borders area going by family search and areas where it occurs most frequently... Although that may not be true!? It's very odd because I always thought the planters came from all over Scotland but now it seems they come from the lowlands and Ayrshire etc... Hmmm
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Yes I think the Scottish were mostly from the lowlands.
They probably couldn't find the Highlanders to 'transplant' them - or they resisted more than the lowlanders?
:D :D ??? ::)
Dawn M
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Typo...
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Yes I think the Scottish were mostly from the lowlands.
They probably couldn't find the Highlanders to 'transplant' them - or they resisted more than the lowlanders?
:D :D ??? ::)
Dawn M
Hmm no I think it was because they were catholic and weren't loyal to the crown aswell as the fact that they didn't speak English up there I think I read somewhere that for one undertaker to become an undertaker he had
to swear to an oath that he would bring over at least 20 Strong Protestant men (theses were implemented to protect the planters from the woodkern who tried
attacking them regularly although I doubt there were many of them here because
this area was all forest and it was sparsely populated according to wikipedia the population In 1600 was only 30000 and by the end of the plantstion it was a mega 300000) loyal to the crown and spoke english only LOL ....
Here's a bit about them : http://grayfamilytree.homestead.com/Ulstersettlement.html
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Hi Owen
I see you have done a lot of work on your connections. Have you by any chance come across a marriage in Magilligan or Limavady where a Cummings married a Miskimmins?
Thanks
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Hi well I haven't found anything. But I know my surname used to be miskimmins. I know that there was a part of our family at the times of miskimmins that separated and changed names to Cummings. Maybe your related.
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Thanks Owen.
I'm Liam son of * (from Limavady) now in Derry. May I ask which side of the family are you from?
Have you any ideas about the name change? I spoke to * (William's son, William known as Bar the Door) he and others in my family just think it was a mistake. An old woman who used to help my mother referred to us as McCummings. I believe there was something else that wasn't spoken about that brought about the change. My great grandfather Joe was in Josephine avenue in the 1911 census registered the whole family as Miskimmins yet my grandfather Sammy has Cummings on his birth certificate and Miskimming on his marriage certificate. They were known as both Miskimmins and Cummings. I see that in Tamlaghard there was a Samuel and a William Miskimmin (1730 and1749) These were the family names used at my grandfather and his siblings ie William, Samuel and Patrick. I have a notion that there was some sort of union at my great great grandfathers level between Cummings and Miskimmins. My great great grandfather was also Joe. Have you made a connection with Samuel and William from 1730 and 1749?
Thanks
* names of possibly living people removed in accordance with Rootschat policy
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Hi I am from this family: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Bannbrook/Ringrash_More/588338/
I am not sure who William is? I know that we used to be miskimmins and then it changed to cummins I am not sure. We were never Cummings. I believe miskimmins and cummins/Cummings are the same surname (they both mean the same thing) so that is why you will find them both in use. The Samuel in 1730 Is the furthest back I can possibly get to, I don't think I can get back any further because there was no church there before then. I think that your family belongs to ours and split off in a row after a terrible atrocity. That Is what I've been told I'm not sure why the name changed. My dad tried arguing with me that those relatives are not mine in 1730 but in convinced they are because it's the same surname and our family originated in magilligan. I think they may have converted from the church of Ireland to Presbyterian when my ggg grandfather married a Presbyterian I am not sure on that but that's what I think. I would love to get back further but I can't. Im pretty sure they're planters who were brought in from wigtownshire with lord mcclelland (he and his wife planted the local area) because I have found records showing miskimmins there in the 1600s. http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~leighann/spelling_variants/7.htm
It is a very rare surname I can't pinpoint it's origins but from that I think they'd come from there
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And what's this talk of a Cummings marrying a miskimmins have you got a family myth?
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No myth. It's only my notion. My great grandfather was church of Ireland and was married in Ballykelly. Apparently he changed to be catholic some time after that. His name was Joseph as was his father and grandfather. Great grandfather Joe had three sons, Paddy Willie and Sammy (my grandfather) known as Miskimmins or Cummings. Some of the family weren't too pleased at being called Miskimmins. In fact great uncle Paddy put something in the Coleraine Chronicle that he would prosecute anyone who referred to him as Miskimmins. Is there a Joseph anywhere in your line.
Going back to the name change it may be that it was McKimmins. Kimmins became Cummins and McKimmins became Miskmmins.
Would it be possible to have a look at your family tree? I believe that there is a link from our side to Cummins in Coleraine. In fact my father was registered as Cummins but he then registered us as Cummings.
Interesting stuff.
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Well if you like I can send you a pm on why yours left. I can't say on here because it's very secret and only a few know about it. Funny my granda is like that (I'm certain it's not the reason I've stated though) as he hated being called the wrong surname. I am the same and I am forever telling people that my name is not Cummings! Lol! I believe that you come from our family and broke off? I don't think there is a link I think were the same family and your branch broke off. I know that anything before 1850 had miskimmins in it and no cummins so it was possibly before this.
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What is the furthest you can get back? Do you have any Presbyterians before your grandfather as my family coverted from the church of Ireland along time ago circa 1790. I'll post a bit on here.
Samuel cummins born 1st Dunboe church 1899 married Mary Ann smith drumachose Presbyterian church limavady
James cummins born 1852 magilligan Presbyterian church married Sarah mcsheefry in 1873 and had several children including Samuel Rachel tillie Joseph and David.
James cummins born 1810 magillligan Presbyterian church married Matilda black
in Dunboe 1st Presbyterian had several children James Joseph and Rachel
David miskimmins born 1784 in magilligan church of Ireland his wife was Rachel can't find marriage though (there us a space in church of Ireland records)
Rachel miskimmins 1757 magilligan church of Ireland
William miskimmins born 1749 magilligan church of Ireland
Samuel miskimmins born 1730 magilligan church of Ireland married Ann dogan in magilligan church of Ireland 1747
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Hi
Some extra information:-
Magilligan Muster Roll 1666 John Miskemin (sic)
1740 Protestant Household Survey. Townland of Carnowry. David, George, John, and James Muskimmin (sic)
1750 Birth of William, son of Samuel Miskimmin and his wife Susanna. Church of Ireland
1755 Birth of Jane, daughter of Samuel Miskimmin and his wife Susanna
Samuel Miskimmin married Susanna Dougan on 30 Dec 1747 in Magilligan Church of Ireland.
Hervey/Bruce Estate Papers c1800 Manuscript Valuation Book-Tircreevan Samuel McCummins and James McCummins.
Regards
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Brilliant stuff. thanks for everything
I must check out with a brother of mine who has more info on the g. g. and g.g.g. granda Joe to see what he has.
Owen I would be much appreciative if you divulged the reason for the split. My email is (*)
Thanks
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Do You know anything about the miskimmins surname yourself? It's the weirdest name I've seen in my life. I've looked it up and i can't find anything at all on the history. I want to find out what this mis thing means. I've looked in Scottish records and the only place I find them Is wigtownshire as already stated so they must originate there. But there's nothing on it maybe its a local surname and the mis means mc. I was shocked to find it on Scottish records because I thought it was just a coleraine surname because I've never heard it anywhere else.
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OK Owen
18 Nov 1872 Tamlaght Finlagan Church of Ireland
Joseph MISKIMMONS & Ellen LOUGUE
Thats g granda Joe. I'll get his photo and I'll get more info on his father. It will probably be next week before I get the photo. The person I know with the most on Miskimmins is Barbara in Bangor or Portaferrry direction. I believe you have been in contact with her. Thanks once again.
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Ok thanks for that. Yes I have a very nice lady has given me alot of info. Btw isn't that church in ballykelly? Is the brides church then?
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Hi,
Yes, Tamlaght Finlagan is the official name of the parish centered around Ballykelly and it was the custom in N. Ireland to get married in the bride's church.
Regards
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Ok thanks for clarifying that.
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Hi,
There is an interesting article in todays Roe Valley Sentinel newspaper about an advertisment which was placed in the Londonderry Journal newspaper on 24 April 1781 by John Church (a Magilligan name) and others. They were offering a reward for the arrest of six men who allegedly murdered John Kelly in Magilligan. One of the men was named as James Miskimmin. The article is about the Murderhole Road (now Windyhill Road) and Paddy Cushy Glen, the highwayman.
Regards
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Isn't it amazing how names change the Murderhowe Road when I ran about Limavady was referred to or known as the Murder Hole Road. The story goes that it was named this because of a Highway man and murder. Sometimes the line between fact and fiction is very thin.
As for my G G G uncle James (I don't know how many G's), he was innocent of all charges and the whole thing was a fabrication. That's my story.
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Hi CummingsL,
Murderhowe was a typo and has now been corrected.
Regards
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The story is mentioned here- list of wanted men includes James Maskimman & John Maskimman:
http://roevalley.com/newsbrowser/historical/cushyglen.htm
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Hi,
The site which Aghadowey referenced is an amusing and informative site about Limavady and the Roe Valley. It can be found at http://roevalley.com/newsbrowser/index.htm
Regards
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Well i live on the windyhill road and alot of people still refer to it as the murder-hole road. I am not sure if those two men are direct relatives, but i assume they are of relation to me. It is in a time where there is little records. In the tamlaghtard church the records miss almost 30 years in the 1700s, so they are sparse then. I am lucky to get back to the 1700s. The only place i can go now is proni which i won't get to for a while because my father is not really interested as usual. He is convinced that we aren't miskimmins (because of what his father says) and ignores anything to do with them. So i just ignore what he says and write down the miskimmins relations. He is missing out on alot of details because of this. I can assure you now that we ARE miskimmins because miskimmins is a varient of cummins and i have seen records in dunboe 1st where my relatives have been referred to with that name Personally i think it is a thran attitude. There is something about that name in my family. Every-time it gets mentioned immediately i am told we are not anything to them. It is getting a bit irritating at this stage. I wish they'd get over this bitter attitude and get on with it.
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Good Owen.
I think it is a great name. Are you aware of any Miskimmins still about in the Magilligan or surrounding areas.
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Yes a bit weird. I don't no but i know of miskimmins in county down. Thats the only place.
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If you look in the phone book Owen you will see there are a couple of Miskimmin in the Coleraine area. Thought you had given up on this genealogy!!
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There were/are also Miskimmins in North Antrim as well as Belfast.
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Yes my dad knows them miskimmins they're in dunluce but they're also known as cummins. For some reason all the miskimmins changed to cummins in the 1850s
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If you look in the phone book Owen you will see there are a couple of Miskimmin in the Coleraine area. Thought you had given up on this genealogy!!
Yes I seen that in the census I don't know them. Apparently there's ones iaghadowey never heard of them. I thought we were the only ones. I wonder if we are related to them.
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Here's the miskimmins family in coleraine never heard of them. http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Coleraine/Taylors_Row/1519052/
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The Miskimmins I know in North Antrim are not known as Cummins and are not related to the 1 family in Aghadowey.
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Yes they are known as Cummings because my dad knows them.
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Perhaps they aren't the family I'm talking about :)
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Maybe
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Owen do you know a * Cummins from Coleraine
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Nope who is she why? There's a few far out cousins I don't know them at all she might be a 2nd cousin. My grandas brothers have quite large families she's probably from one of those families.
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saw her name in the local paper here said she was from coleraine thought you might be related
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Aw right ok, naw i don't know her. What paper was it?
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I am the 3x Granddaughter of Elizabeth Kimmons from Tully Rd, Limavady. She married John Smyth in 1837.(John was Presbyterian) I am also a DNA match to Liam of Derry who has contributed to this post. My match to Liam is on both paternal and maternal sides as Margaret Holmes was my Great Grandmother's sister. Margaret Holmes, the sister, married Joe MisKimmons. They were Catholics living around Josephine Avenue.c 1890s. I think there was a huge falling out over religion as my Presbyterian Grandfather, Joe Smyth married Mary Holmes' daughter (Hannah Guiler) in the RC Church of Limavady in 1911 and my Mother reports of bitterness&threatening behaviour over the early IRA that separated the families. I am definitely DNA related to the Miskimmons/Cummings of Limavady. Today I saw a historical photo of my Uncle Smyth with Willie Cummings and their McCool cousins out pigeon racing. Limavady Past and Present.
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....Margaret Holmes was my Great Grandmother's sister. Margaret Holmes, the sister, married Joe MisKimmons.
Margaret Holmes married Joseph McCummins on 13 June 1895 at Drumachose Parish Church, Limavady.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1895/10524/5833409.pdf
....my Presbyterian Grandfather, Joe Smyth married Mary Holmes' daughter (Hannah Guiler) in the RC Church of Limavady in 1911....
Joseph Smith married Hannagh Gyler on 20 May 1910 at Limavady RC Church.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1910/09981/5629507.pdf
Edited to Add:
1911 census for Smith
House 11 in Roe Mill Road (Limavady Urban, Londonderry)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Limavady_Urban/Roe_Mill_Road/597356/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002827982/
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My great grandfather Joe was in Josephine avenue in the 1911 census registered the whole family as Miskimmins....
1911 census registered and transcribed as Miskimmons
House 5 in Josephine's Avenue or Billy's Lane (Limavady Urban, Londonderry)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Limavady_Urban/Josephine_s_Avenue_or_Billy_s_Lane/597083/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002827300/
Youngest child Annie McCummings (MMN Holmes) born 15 January 1911.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1911/01543/1624829.pdf
KG
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Delete
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Further add. See Birth of John Smith to older John Smith in 1838. The child's Mother was Elizabeth Kimmons of tully Townland. Joseph and Hannah were my Grandparents, his Father was the John born 1838 and his parents were John Smith and Elizabeth Kimmons.