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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: shopbooth on Thursday 12 May 11 19:03 BST (UK)
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One family dominates my ancestry search of the nineteenth century - the BAGNALLs.
The whole family expanded during the late nineteenth century from the sons of Robert BAGNALL.
Any information, other than the bmd and census info which I have, would be invaluable in shedding some light on this family who seemed to trade along the Tyne on Newcastle (Ouseburn, Byker) and Gateshead sides in river transport (wherries) and public house ownership.
The details I have are:
Robert BAGNALL - 1827-1902: 'Waterman on this City' on grave in Heaton, Newcastle
Elizabeth (nee CHARLTON) 1829-1897 (born Hexham)
Children
Robert Matthew BAGNALL 1848-1910: a Waterman, Publican and 'Champion Oarsman'
Percival BAGNALL 1855-1922: a Waterman, Publican
George BAGNALL 1857-1892
Joseph BAGNALL 1861 -
Margaret BAGNALL 1862 -
Joshua BAGNALL 1862-1932
Martha BAGNALL 1863 -
Matthew C BAGNALL 1866 -
Jane Ann BAGNALL 1869 -
The family tree becomes quite expansive after this and the BAGNALL name is handed down directly or as a middle name in successive generations
Any insights gratefully received on:
any siblings of Robert BAGNALL (b.1827)
confirmation/details of his parents - ?Joseph BAGNALL & ?Margaret
any knowledge of Robert M Bagnall - Champion Oarsman of the Tyne - I have some records of him racing on the Tyne and in Novo Scotia but fairly limited. He was a contemporary of James Renforth, a famous champion oarsman.
photographs of any family members - that would be great to say the least
Many thanks
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Wouldn't getting the marriage of Robert to Elizabeth Charlton give you his father's name and occupation?
There is a 28 Aug 1831 baptism of a Robert with parents Joseph and Margaret , shipwright along with a sister Ann who was born 19 May 1828. There is an Isabella baptised in 1810 with parents Joseph and Margaret nee Castles said they were from Gateshead.
baptisms of the children of Robert and Elizabeth at All Saints that I have on my index:
Robert 3 Aug 1851, Line? Street, waterman
George 13 Apr 1857, Ballast Hills, Keelman
Ann Elizabeth 6 Dec 1858, Ballast Hills, Waterman
Joshua 25 May 1862, Quality Row, Waterman
Martha born 5 Sept 1863, baptised 14 Mar 1864, Line? Street, Waterman
Matthew born 4 Aug 1866, baptised 19 Aug 1866, Ouseburn, Waterman
Janis
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Thanks for all that info, Janis.
I'm relatively new to family history - enjoying it immensely- and very much feeling my way around the misc resources.
Since posting I have searched FamilySearch and came across Ann, as well as Isabella, Margaret and Hannah and Mary as sisters to Robert - though there is a 10 year gap between the first 4 siblings and the final 2 which I don't quite understand??
I also found marriage of Joseph 'Bagnel' to Margaret 'Cassels', though one of the FS baptisms at All Saints records the surname as Castles.
As you rightly say the marriage certificare will hopefully confirm the Shipwright and Gateshead links as well as perhaps another spelling of bride's family name!
I don't quite understand when you speak of 'my index' - I've been to several archives and seen indexes but they don't seem to have this level of detail. where do you source the index from & is the detail from Microfiche?? it seems a useful resource - certainly helped in swiftly tracing Joseph Bagnall's career via baptism records!
I'm really grateful for these helpful pointers. thanks again
by the way the street name will prob be Lime St, Ousburn which housed a Lime Kiln.
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Some are indexes with just names and dates, others have full transcriptions
Janis
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Just pouncing on the reference to TYneside watermen from Byker- mine are the Wests, 3 generations called Allen West, married into the Wolf's, also keelers.
If you come across any refs to them, I'd be interested. I have census , BMD's , baps. but wonder if anyone has ever looked at the Watermen's records which I seem to recall are kept somewhere in the North East.
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Haven't come across Allen West or Wolfs as yet but will keep an eye out for them.
If anyone knows where the Watermen's Records are housed I could look over them if accessible - or indeed I'd be interested in any insight into the Waterman profession. It was clearly a physically demanding and risky profession but one of great pride and comradeship.
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I'm sure I once found a reference to the watermen's records being housed somewhere in N/castle but can't find it now!
Have you ever seen the painting by JMTurner of Keelmen hauling coals on the Tyne( or similar title)- really very impressive- we like to think that the waterman in the picture is a West. The original is unfortunately in New York, I think.
Old 19thC newspapers might give you some insights into your ancestors' doings. Lancashire Libraries have an excellent on-line facility. We found refs. all sorts of lively goings-on ( ie. petty crimes) on TYneside in the mid 1800's- real roustabout territory at the time it seems!
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The Turner painting is called " Keelmen hauling in coals by Moonlight" ( 1835)
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While I have not found anything on the Bagnalls, my ancestor John Oyston was born in South Shields in 1819, was convicted in 1835 for stealing a pair of shoes and transported to Tasmania, Australia. His trade was recorded as 'waterboy' and was later employed in his new home as a waterman on the Tamar River near Launceston, TAS. My puzzle is trying to find his parents who may also have been employed onto the River Tyne. In your search, if you find/hear anything I would be most thankful. Chris Oyston
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I've done a quick search and there was a John Oyston baptised at St. Hilda's Church, South Shields on 7 Feb 1823. He was the son of Cuthbert (mariner) and Isabella Oyston. Can't locate any others of this name baptised near the mouth of the Tyne post 1819 so this one is a possibility if he was baptised as an infant. Hope this helps.
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Durham Records Online has 23 pages of the Bagnall line.
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Many thanks, that's the closest I have had yet. ChrisO
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PETER BAGNALL
JUST FOUND YOUR INFO REGARDING THE BAGNALLS.
ROBERT BAGNALL IS MY GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER AS MATTHEW CHARLTON BAGNALL WAS MY FATHER.
VISITING NEWCASTLE ON A CRUISE NEXT WEEK AND THINK WE'VE FOUND THE GRAVES AND MEMORIAL IN THE BYKER AND HEATON CEMETERY, SHOULD BE INTERESTING IF WE CAN FIND IT.
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Hi bagnall28,
Welcome to RootsChat. :)
I would recommend visiting Newcastle City Library, Local Studies, when you come over. They have the Heaton burial registers on microfilm which will reveal which section Robert is in. This will make it a lot easier for you to find grave if you don't know the section already.
I also think it looks like he may have a death notice in the Evening Chronicle. Click on link and scroll down. This shows date notices appeared in newspaper.
This newspaper is also on microfilm at the library. I always think it is a good idea too to check for the next year for a possible memoriam as these often provide interesting and/or touching messages.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NBL/DeathNotices/deaths_AUNG
From City Centre (Haymarket bus station) a 309 or 308 bus will take you near to Heaton Cemetery. Ask to get off stop after Corner House stop. If this may be of any help. :)
Added: If you are thinking of getting the bus I will check with driver exact name of stop before next week.
If you like walking, I would estimate about 30 mins walk from town.. Not bad on a sunny day.
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THANKS FOR THE INFO. THERE ON TUESDAY NEXT WEEK AND ONLY THERE 7AM-5PM SO IF I DON'T MANAGE TO DISCOVER THE MEMORIALS MAY RETURN LATER FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS IN THE FUTURE.
DO YOU KNOW HOW BIG HEATON CEMETERY IS, I'VE GOT A COUPLE OF PHOTOS OF ROBERT'S AND PERCIVALS GRAVES SO THAT MAY HELP ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
ONCE AGAIN MANY THANKS
PETER BAGNALL
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Hi bagnall28
http://www.margaret-hall-genealogy.com/page9.htm
This link is from a website I sometimes use. If you click on the Heaton Cemetery thumbnail you should be able to see a bigger map.
I have never actually been inside this cemetery but from the map it looks quite big.
I think you would be very lucky indeed if you manage to find the grave stones without knowing the section to look in. I think you could well be successful if you do find out the sections.
I would be willing to check for you but I don't think my work hours will enable me to get to the library before you come next week. When I am able to get to the library at some point I will be happy to look up the notices for you (and the burials) if you don't get to the library yourself. Library opens at 10 am. I think you should be able to check burial microfilms and get to cemetery and find graves well within the time limit. bus should get you close to cemetery within 15 mins. Don't worry about looking for notices I can look for these likely at some point in next two weeks. :)
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THANKS FOR THAT.
I'VE EMAILED BERAVEMENTSERVICES@NEWCASTLE.GOV.UK AND I THINK THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO LOOK THE PLOTS UP AND HOPEFULLY LET ME KNOW, WATCH THIS SPACE.
CHEERS
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A bus driver has told me the bus stop to ask to get off at is 'Stephenson Road-Chillingham Road'. Get the 308 bus (stand L) or 309 bus (stand M) from Haymarket bus station. Bus journey about 15 mins.
When you get off at the above stop you will be facing some shops. Walk round the corner of the shops on your right onto Benton Road - cemetery is a 1-2 minute walk ahead.
By the way I have noticed that your ancestors Robert & Elizabeth got married at Christ Church, North Shields according to the marriage locator website. If you do not already have this record and if you would like this I could look up the record for you at North Shields library in a couple of weeks.
http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk/cgi-bin/ML_search.cgi?year=1847&qtr=3&vol=25&page=394&search=search
Good luck with your trip next week. Please let us know if you are successful.
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Haven't come across Allen West or Wolfs as yet but will keep an eye out for them.
If anyone knows where the Watermen's Records are housed I could look over them if accessible - or indeed I'd be interested in any insight into the Waterman profession. It was clearly a physically demanding and risky profession but one of great pride and comradeship.
Whey Pet, divven't ye knaa The Keel Lad?
THE KEEL LAD
He's an ug'ly body,
A lovely Body,
An ill faced hideous fyeul,
But Aah hev married a Keel Lad,
And my guid days are done.
Now Aah thowt te marry a Parson,
to make us say me prayers,
But Aah hev married a Keel Lad,
And he kicks me doon the stairs.
Aah thowt te marry a Dyer,
to dye me Apron Blue,
But Aah hev married a Keel Lad,
and he meks me Sally Roo.
Aah thowt te marry a sailor,
te bring us beads and lace,
But Aah hev married a Keel Lad,
and he's a bloody disgrace.
Aah thowt te marry a joiner,
te mek us a chair and stool,
But Aah hev married a Keel Lad,
and he's a perfect fyeul.
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As we have not heard if you were able to get the burial info from the bereavement services I have found this for you just in case. Hopefully, this should speed up your search tomorrow.
Robert is in Section 19 Grave 21
Percival is in Section 1 Grave 55
Both above at Heaton Cemetery
Here are the death notices - both in the Evening Chronicle
28 November 1902:
'BAGNALL,- Byker, 5 Dunn's Terrace, 27th inst., aged 75 years, Robert, the dearly loved husband of the late Elizabeth Bagnall, waterman of this city. Interment Heaton, Sunday; lift 2.30. All friends and members Foresters' Court Royal Sovereign kindly invited.'
12 June 1922:
BAGNALL.- At 2, Woodthorn Road, High West Jesmond, suddenly on the 11th inst., aged 68 years, Percival Bagnall. Interment at Heaton Cemetery, Wed; lift 2.30. All friends kindly invited.'
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Thank you so much, that saves us a morning at the archives museum searching for info you are brilliant and will let you know how we get on
Pete
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You are welcome, bagnall.
Actually, look at the map I can't see where section 19 is placed.
Can anyone see something that I can't on the map? (See post 15 which takes you to map) Or in the interest of speed can anyone pin point where section 19 is? Burial entry for Robert definitely shows section 19.
Hopefully, there will be a board map at the cemetery. If no one knows - again in the interests of speed I would recommend ring Bereavement services. I think there shouldn't be any charge just to relate where a section is.
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Just found that will keep you posted
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Thanks bagnall. I can't believe that section 19 doesn't appear to show on map :-\ Sometimes, nothing seems to run smoothly. I do hope this (section 19) is showing on a board there!
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If you look at the map some corners have been lopped off!
Looking at the numbering, 17 and 18 run along the bottom left of the site, and I suspect that 19 is the next one along, going up the left hand side, not visible on the map?
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Hi Jen,
Hopefully, you will be right and bagnall will be able to easily find the grave.
Hi bagnall,
Here is Robert's marriage entry which is on microfilm at North Shields library. This will also be at Tyne and Wear Archives. Some of the entry is faint:
Christ Church, Tynemouth (it is in North Shields)
Entry 124, page 62
20 September 1847
Robert Bagnall & Elizabeth Charlton
Both 'of full age'
Bachelor & Spinster
Robert a 'Waterman'
Residence for both 'This Parish'
Fathers:
(Joseph?) Bagnall - Waterman
Matthew Charlton - (Cartwright?)
Robert signed with his mark
Elizabeth signed name
Witnesses: William (---?) & Elizabeth (Currie?) her mark
By Banns
Will have to dash off now but will check in again later in the day to find out how you got on. Best of luck! :)
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12.15 and in Newcastle City centre all done and dusted. The 2 graves were 20yds apart right by the main entrance. Thank you so much for your help, I don't think we would have fitted it all in otherwise. Shuttle bus from boat to Tynemouth metro, metro to Byker, 2 mile walk then 308 to town. All went really well
.
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I am very glad to hear that your brief time in Tyneside went successfully today. Thanks for letting us know how things went.
It sounds like you found the graves very quickly. If these were both at the front of cemetery it sounds like Jen was right about the position of section 19. :)