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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 10 May 11 10:34 BST (UK)
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Welcome to this weeks Scavenger Hunt, there's only one thing to be found this week, but I have the feeling it could lead you a merry dance.
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
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Looking for the birth of John Henry Rees area Bryncoch Neath Glamorgan Wales UK.
I have tried different names ie Henry John etc with no trace. I have his marriage & death cert it says d.o.b 1ST JULY 1901. I have given this date to registrars still no trace.
He is not on the 1901 census but is on 1911 with his parents Richard & Sarah Rees [her maiden name Evans] & their children /Johns'brothers/sisters.
John Henry Rees was on the 1911 census with his parents Richard & Sarah, & their children, names were David Richard age 13yrs. Jennie age 11yrs. John Henry age 9yrs. Lizzie May age 6yrs. Sulgwyn age 7yrs. Llewellyn age 9mths.
The address was Old Furnace Bryncoch Neath Wales UK. John Henry's dad was an ostler in colliery below ground, also he was a farmer for many yrs. The area's they lived were LLansamlet, LLangafelach and Bryncoch.
This is really a mystery as all of his brothers/sisters have all been Registered even the ones who were born/died as babies. I have all of their certificates.
I hope that his birth can be found many thanks
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I'm afraid I don't know much about research in Wales but have just got a couple of queries ...
Was it his death certificate that says his dob was 1st July 1901? If so, this may not be accurate, as you probably know - as this information was given by the informant who may or may not have known the correct dob. Who was the informant in this case? Even if John Henry celebrated his birthday on a certain day his whole life, it may still have been wrong.
I'm wondering if John Henry's siblings d/c's give their correct birth dates?
Were his siblings all registered in the same district? I'm wondering if the family moved around between births and John Henry may have been registered elsewhere.
Have you looked for baptism records as well as birth records?
Have you checked for other births with the surname Rees in case he was registered with a completely different name?
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My first thoughts.
For some reason he wasn't registered when he was born, any number of reasons, mother ill, father couldn't get to the registrar office etc.
Now did he live to be 65?
The reason I am asking is he would have had to provide evidence of his date of birth to claim his retirement pension.
So was his birth registered much later than 1901?
Looking at births registered in Neath for John Henry Rees afer 1915 I find June 1920, Sept. 1923, June 1939, Mar. 1941, Dec 1947 and Dec 1954. As well as those there are more registered between 1901 and 1915.
I think you need to look at all of those, firstly can you find any deaths that would tie up with any of those dates of birth? Anything to try and eliminate any of them, failing that you may need to sweet talk the Neath registrar to see if they will look at any births to confirm they are not yours.
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Ok so if he was born in July 1901 then he wouldn’t be on the 1901 census as that was taken April – this ties in with what you know
Do you have the family in 1901 ?
Is there sufficient enough gap between John Henrys birth and that of the other children for him to be born ? i.e. 9 months either side event he children that died as youngsters.
Births are registred where they occurred which MAY NOT be where the family were living at the time have you checked christening records were the other children christened ?
There must be some plausible explanation of why his birth was not registered if the other children were such as those that Jaywit has described above
could he have been a foundling ? or adopted ?
if the family took him in out of the ‘poor system’ then there would be some record of this and the father would have received payment from the parish for this childs upkeep. It is unlikely they would take the child in if not for some gain to themselves or perhaps they knew the mother. this is speculation of course but I am trying to think outside the box
is there a John Henry …….. b. Q2/3 1901 that disappears from the records ?
Could the child be registered under a different name ? such as mmn.?
Have you tried the local register office as opposed to the GRO a local register office will check up to 5 years either side of the birth date as you know with for children with the same father and mothers name as you are giving to them.
The GRO said they did not have my birth certificate but I got a copy from the local RO no problems
I am inclined to agree with Ruskie also re the age at death being wrong and people celebrating their birthday as one day when it was another.
Another thing to think about is were there any notices in the press ?
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Have you tried school records ? slightly off track I know but he would have had ot go to school and these will tell you lots of information (if you can find them)
The school log books may be able to tell you more about the children and father.
School log books:
School Records / School Log Books
1870-Current Day (although 100 year rule applies) School registers provide pupils names, date of birth, addresses, fathers names and fathers occupation and years of attendance if they left to go to another school this would also be noted. Some have a brief explanation about the family.
School Log Books were filled in weekly by the head teacher give attendance figures and note extraordinary events.
From 1862 statutory admission and discharge registers began to be kept by the head teachers of schools receiving government funding, you will discover that many of these commence only in 1880 when schooling became compulsory betwixt the ages of 5 and ten, though local districts could make it from 1870.
School attendance registers were compiled by local education authorities after 1875 these disclose similar information as well as the placement of youngsters in schools throughout the county.
The particulars registered concerning the deaths and births of children submitted to the local education authority (LEA) by the district registrars record the date and place of each event the child’s name, sex his or her fathers name and the description and abode of the informant
My nans father servred in WW2 she was given vouchers for her lunch and a note entered into the school records re same
she also had a card.
anyhow school log books should hopefully confirm his age or at least his birth year
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These are common names but is this John (Jack) in 1901?
RG13 piece 5058 folio 114 page 23
living with his grandparents (Evans) ??
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FreeBMD gives a John Henry Rees, birth reg q4 1901, in Llanelli.
Could his birthdate be wrong? Could they have left it rather late to register the birth? Any family connections with Llanelli?
Llansamlet and Llangyfelach are both Swansea rather than Neath, IIRC.
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Something simple, and related to points others have raised, but ... did you check for misspellings of the surname? Rhys for example? :-\
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What if they got round to registering his birth when one of the younger children was born?
There is this birth in the same qtr. as Sulgwyn's birth registration.
Henry John Rees
Year of Registration: 1904
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Neath (1837-1970)
County: Breconshire, Glamorgan
Volume: 11a
Page: 996
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I had a look for Rhys and Reece but couldn't see any likely candidates.
What was JH's dad's occupation in 1901? The OP says they were farmers for years - did they live on a farm or were they itenerant farm labourers?
We have Neath (don't know exactly where Bryncoch is, it's not listed as a separate district within Neath, was it just the house/farm name?); Llansamlet and Llangyfelach in Swansea; possibly Llanelli (see above) - just wondered if the family moved about S Wales according to the farming seasons.
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These are common names but is this John (Jack) in 1901?
RG13 piece 5058 folio 114 page 23
living with his grandparents (Evans) ??
John Henry's sister Jennie is 1 year old on the 1901 census so unless she is nearly 2, this is probably not the right John Henry. :-\
That birth reg would be worth investigating Jaywit ... :)
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Sorry everyone........... It seems s.r. is having problems posting, she's answered most of your questions, but can't get them on the board. We're trying to fix the problem now.
Barbara
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Looking at the transcription of the 1911 census it's clear that the place of birth for JH and his sibs has been mistranscibed, but I can't work out what it should say and I can't get sight of the original image atm. Any ideas?
Edited to add - looking at 1901, I wonder if it's Blaenhonddan?
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Sorry all............... still having problems.
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These are common names but is this John (Jack) in 1901?
RG13 piece 5058 folio 114 page 23
living with his grandparents (Evans) ??
John Henry's sister Jennie is 1 year old on the 1901 census so unless she is nearly 2, this is probably not the right John Henry. :-\
That birth reg would be worth investigating Jaywit ... :)
that probably is right as she would be 1 year old and listed as such
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I have located Johns parents with a 1 year old Jennie G on 1901
Household Members:
Name Age
Richard Rees 52
Sarah Rees 19
David R Rees 4
Jennie G Rees 1
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by the way Sarah was 29, the image was mistranscribed due to a check mark thru her age
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Can anyone find Jennie's birth registration? I'm having problems.
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Jun 1901; Jenni Gwenogfren Rees b Swansea 11a 1062 (FreeBMD)
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I saw that but as she was already one year old in April 1901 I discounted it.
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Jun 1899 Qtr Llanelly 11a 1067 - Jenny Rees ??
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,525302.msg3802829.html#msg3802829
I'll suggest the same birth reg as I did on this previous post
Evan Henry Rees sept qtr 1901 Neath vol 11a pg 972
Evan is Welsh for John, correct quarter & registration district for a birth in Bryncoch or Blaenhonddan.
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On your other post (link provided by Osprey) you say:
"WHY can't i find his birth i have writtern to neath/swansea they say no trace."
I'm not sure I'd trust that a proper search was done by Neath.Swansea. ;)
There have been several births suggested in these two posts, including Evan Henry Rees. Unfortunately you'll probably have to make some purchases, and go through them one by one, in the hope that you find the correct John Henry. :-\
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Just to let you know, s.r. isn't ignoring you ;D ;D
It seems s.r. is still having problems posting on here. I have no idea why!!
I think it's time to contact one of the mods ::) ::)
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s.r. is still having trouble posting on the thread ... weird ... :-\
Anyway, this is what I just received from s.r. via PM:
I am replying this way as i cant get to put my answers on the s.h. board.as to your questions abt John Henry Rees
1.his death cert sat's his d.o.b.1st july 1901 sawnsea[in wales uk]
2. the informant was his step daughter.
3. all of his siblings who were all born[lived] born[died] were all registered.
as i have there certificates.
4.have not been able to check the baptism for him as i am too far from swansea archives.
5. I have asked swansea reg /neath offices to check for him a few ways as in the address/parents /various namespelt all come back as no trace.
6. I have his school register it says his name is john henry rees d.o.b. 16th sept 1900.I have gone by this date with no trace also thought he may ahave been a twin as his sister was born in 1900 no trace.
hope that this answers your questions & helps in some way as to finding john henry.speak soon
s.r.
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You would usually expect the school record to be more reliable than the death certificate regarding his dob.
Do you also have the school records for his siblings? If so, are their dates of birth the same as on their birth certificates? If so, you would also expect John Henry's school record to be correct too ...
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I've had this PM as well.
just seen your question on s.h. looking for birth date jennie[really name janet gladys]d.o.b.7th april 1900 born clase farm llangyfelach.her brother david richard born 18th feb 1896 on Tirmynydd farm llansamlet.hope this helps you speak soon.
So Jennie was Janet Gladys. Possible then that John was Evan?
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Also if Jennie was born April 1900 John couldn't have been born Sept. 1900, so I would get that Evan Henry birth certificate, making his birth Sept 1901.
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Another PM from s.r.:
... "to your question abt school reg record yes date/months are incorrect for the rees children but yrs are correct when born there was 3 rees children in this reg."
OK, so not reliable then ... maybe the parents weren't sure when the children were born. People weren't so hung up with times and dates as they are today .... :-\
Jennie being Janet really lends weight to John being Evan .... ;) Go on s.r. - buy that certificate. ;D
It's the only way you'll find out.
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scrapped post --- sorry
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s.r. has asked for the full details of the 1901 census entry
RG13 piece 5058 folio 114 page 23
living 63, Llantwit Road, Neath
Henry EVANS widower age 67 cord winder ( boot maker) born Camarthen
Louisa EVANS widow daughter in law age age 55 born Camarthen
Sarah EVANS single grandaughter age 17 laundress born Neath
Jack REES great grandson age 7mths born Neath
Perhaps Jack could be Sarah's son ???
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s.r. has asked for the full details of the 1901 census entry
RG13 piece 5058 folio 114 page 23
living 63, Llantwit Road, Neath
Henry EVANS widower age 67 cord winder ( boot maker) born Camarthen
Louisa EVANS widow daughter in law age age 55 born Camarthen
Sarah EVANS single grandaughter age 17 laundress born Neath
Jack REES great grandson age 7mths born Neath
Perhaps Jack could be Sarah's son ???
Now that would tie up with John being born in Sept 1900, so what happened to that John/Jack?
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Lets stand back and look at what we have got.
John Henry gave his date of birth as July 1901. ( not on 1901 census with parents)
There is a possible Evan Henry birth correct place and quarter.
1901 census shows Jack age 7 months, with grandmother, SR has school records showing date of birth September 1900 which would fit in with Jack.
So were Jack and John Henry 2 different people?
It would be impossible for John Henry to be born to the same mother as Jenny if he was born in September 1900, July 1901 would be a good gap after Jenny's birth.
If so are the school records SR has for the wrong one, Jack instead of John Henry?
The only way forward is to get the Evan Henry birth certificate or at least contact Neath RO and give them the correct parent's names and say you only want the cert. if the parents tie up.
Then you will know if you need more research.
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Ok email me the FULL details of what you have S R and I will travel to Swansea Records and sort this out for you
Look forward to hearing from you soonest
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Jim I'm sure your offer of help will be welcome to SR.
Not having any Welsh blood ( unless someone wandered in the 18th century ;D) I guess you have to be very careful to make sure you are following the correct family.
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I've contacted a 'Mod' to try and work out this posting problem...... hopefully it can get fixed soon.
Sorry this has happened people, but thanks for persevering :-*
Barbara
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hi toni.
nice to meet you have had to reply to all this way sorry cant get my replys on the s.h. board.answers to your questions.
1.I have the Rees family in the 1901 census there is richard [head] mother[wife]
david richard [son aged 4] jennie [janet gladys aged 1] census was for the cottage near school neath [Blaenhoddan] children born 1896[lived] 1897[died]
1898[died] 1900[lived] 1901[possibly john henry]1904[lived] 1906[lived] 1907[died] 1909[died] 1910[lived]
baptisms dont have any can not get to swansea archives as its too far from me to search.I have j.h school reg it says d.o.b.16th sept 1900,thought he could of been a twin to jennie no trace tried also varoius names spelt no trace also looked at the address for him no trace & parents no trace.
a question to you what do you mean abt notice in press obituary i have it gives nothing abt j.h. hope that this helps in some way in finding j.h birth speak soon thanks
s.r.
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some children were simply not registered but as Jaywit said if he lived over 65 he would have had to prove his d.o.b for pension purposes
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s.r. - I'm just thinking about why you unable to post .... :-\
Exactly what happens when you click on the [reply] button to make a post?
You're a good egg for going to Swansea Jim. I'm sure s.r. will be very happy. :D Best of luck - I hope you can solve the mystery.
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hi all
just seeing if this reply button is now worling
s.r.
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Yes! Tis working.
Glad to have you on the thread at last. ;D
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hi all
I am on the s.h.horray lol
Jiminwales thank you so much for your very kind help.all that i have on John henry is that he is not on 1901 census but is on 1911 aged 9 yrs.the 1911 census says born in Blouronan now this must be Bryncoch as his brother/sister was born in Bryncoch & the census says Blouronan.[I have the brother/sister birth cert to proof this place]so this name must be missprinted ?
John henry in 1910 when the new school opened his school reg says d.o.b. 16th sept 1900.? now his 1st marriage was in 1927 his age was 28yrs/2nd marriage in 1953 his age is 52yrs his death cert does not give age of death but says d.o.b. 1st july 1901 swansea.john henry is infull name on school reg/marriages/death cert.his parents were in 1896 when they wed & same yr 1st son born was at Tirmynydd farm birchgrove llansamlet.then in 1900 1st sister born on clase farm llangyfelach swansea.Then 1901 the family is at bryncoch cottage nr school.then his 2nd brother born 1904 at cottage nr school bryncoch.1906 2nd sister born just says on her birth cert brynccoh Blaenhonddan R.D. then 1910 last brother born at old furnace bryncoch Duffryn Clydach.The parents names were Richard & Sarah Rees [her maiden name [Evans]Richards occupations were farmer/farm bailiff/ostler/coal hewer/haulier.I have not been able to look for if he was baptized as i am too far from swansea archives to look myself.I have writtern to swansea reg office many times with various names spelling no trace done the same to neath reg office same no trace,even address searches swansea & neath no trace .S.R.
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SR At last ;D ;D
The school record you have does it give an address or mention of any siblings?
I am still worried there were 2 people with the same name.
Another thing his parent's marriage, can you give the full details, names and occupations of bride and groom and both fathers so we can hopefully work out if there was any connection to the family of Jack Rees.
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hi jaywit.
The school that was opened in 1910 was called Bleanhoddan primary school.Rees children on this reg is jenny[janet]gladys,john henry & Sulgwyn[my very late father inlaw he died in 1952]
John henry's parents marriage is as follows.
On 23rd jan 1896 Richard Rees aged 40yrs [real age 56] Bachelor farmer
living at Tyrmynydd farm llansamlet higher.Richard's father Richard Rees[deceased] farmer.
Sarah Evans aged 24yrs spinster - living at Tyrmynydd farm llansamlet higher.Sarahs father David Evans farmer.
in the presence of Mary Evans & Margaret Ann Harris.hope this is of help.
s.r.
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hi all again.
cant stop me replying now lol
this reply is for Bearkat the 1901 census dont think its my sarah/jack as she was born in crugwm llandilofawr wales not neath sorry abt that beerkat,thanks for it though.speak soon.
s.r.
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after reading your
first second post on this hunt i am beginning to think maybe you have the wrong family
unless you know for sure that the JOhn Henry in your family had brothers / sisters that match the ones you have found by for sure i mean other proof of their existence have you actually seen them in real life or photos of them and the like.
because at the moment you have his death and marriage record but not his birth his marriage record supposedly gives his father as the same as the other childrens births and is the address and occupation the same ?
who were the witnesses to the marriage ?
the school record should say about the father
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hi Toni
As to your questions.
1. All of the Rees children who were born [lived ] born died in infancy] all had Father as being Richard Rees.
2.I have not long found relatives who have kindly given me a photographs of John Henry in later yrs /his Brother in later yrs who looks Very much like each other/& his sisters who all look very much alike.dont have any of his older brother as yet hope i can find some soon]& none of Sulgwyn as there was a house fire many yrs ago so dont have any of him but again i hope some new relative who we are hopeing to meet soon may possibly have some.
3. School reg of all of the children all have the same father Richard Rees & all have address as being old furnace bryncoch.
s.r.
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I still think you need to buy the Evan Henry birth certificate.
Now is this John Henry's death?
John Henry Rees
Birth Date: 1 Jul 1901
Death Registration Month/Year: 1972
Registration district: Caerleon
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 8c
Page: 387
Now I can see years being wrong on a death but a month to be July when the school record says September. I can't see that.
All I can think is that the school record, which will be a transcription from a primary scource is wrong. perhaps there were 2 John Rees and whoever wrote that record got them mixed up and put the birth date down wrong.
If that death is correct then he did live long enough to claim a retirement pension and like I said he would have to provide proof of his date of birth to do that.
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hi jaywit.
The death cert is correct,the school dates as mths/day on jennie[janet]gladys & Sulgwyn are incorrect but yr is correct.I have writtern to neath & had a reply a few mths ago & there is no trace as in either mother wrong or father.they do not give out info as to which parent is incorrect.
I hope that jiminwales can find his baptism?
the pension you mention is there anyway i can find info on this ? in finding out abt d.o.b. to john henry.
s.r.
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You can't access pension records, so no joy there.
Who registered his death? Was it a close family member?
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his step daughter registered the death
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hi jaywit.
The death cert is correct,the school dates as mths/day on jennie[janet]gladys & Sulgwyn are incorrect but yr is correct.I have writtern to neath & had a reply a few mths ago & there is no trace as in either mother wrong or father.they do not give out info as to which parent is incorrect.
I hope that jiminwales can find his baptism?
the pension you mention is there anyway i can find info on this ? in finding out abt d.o.b. to john henry.
s.r.
Did you ask the RO about Evan Henry, or just about John Henry?
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It's time for this weeks Scavenger Hunt....... a little bit complicated, but I'm sure you'll work it out.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,532975.0.html
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
As usual, this Hunt will remain open for any further information which may come in.