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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Census Lookup and Resource Requests => Topic started by: jaq on Tuesday 17 February 04 17:49 GMT (UK)
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Re:Do you want to see the 1911 census early? you can help ,
RootsChat Administration replied:
"The early release of the census is not about money.
There is a hundred year rule on the census to protect the privacy and security of individuals who might still be living, this means that the earliest release of the 1911 census is the first working day of 2012.
If our ancestors who filled in the census in 1911 with theire private and confidential information were told that the records would not be released for a hundred years, then that it how it should remain. "
please post your views.... ::) .the question may of been long for the question box. it should have read"with so many elderly relatives already recalling their family information to aid their siblings, do you agree that the 100 yr rule should remain in force for the 1911 census to be made available? taking into account that we can already access the bmd certs up to 2001 on http://www.1837online.com"
jaq
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[size=9]YES[/size]
There is a hundred year rule on the census to protect the privacy and security of individuals who might still be living, this means that the earliest release of the 1911 census is the first working day of 2012.
If our ancestors who filled in the census in 1911 with their private and confidential information were told that the records would NOT be released for a hundred years, then that it how it should remain.
So I would say "YES" - the hundred year rule must stay in force
The 1911 census returns, now in the custody of the National Archives, are currently closed for 100 years by Lord Chancellor's Instrument no. 12 of 1966, on the grounds that the information was supplied in strict confidence. s5(2) of the Public Records Act 1958 provides for the extension of the normal 30-year closure period in such cases. The National Archives is, therefore, currently considering ways of making the 1911 census data generally available to the public at the end of the 100 year closure period.
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This is indeed a can of worms,
BUT
When census returns are made, the public is told that the personal information they provide is strictly confidential, and will remain so for 100 years. They should have no worries about providing correct, accurate information. (surely the most important thing for us as family historians).
If we start fiddling with the 100 year rule, 'what difference would a couple of years make' etc., the public confidence in the promise will be undermined. If it is changed once, what is to stop them changing it again? Lop off 20 years next time, maybe reduce it to 50 years.
Elderly relatives do not just tell us what they can remember, they tell us only what they want us to know. I recently uncovered a big secret in my family that they feared was a scandal, it split my family and these divisions were not healed in the lifetimes of the people concerned.
I voted YES in your poll and felt the question was phrased in a very biased way, so I needed to put the other side of the case.
Regards,
Kazza. ;D
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Mr. Alistair Carmichael 's points regarding the 1911 census.
(MP Orkney and Shetland)
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200304/cmhansrd/cm040329/debtext/40329-44.htm
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Whilst I would like to say we should be able to see the 1911 census early, I don't think it would be fair for those people who were told that the information would remain secret for 100 years. :-X
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just to point out that further discussion of this topic can be found at
http://www.rootschat.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=145;action=display;threadid=1840
subject do you want to see the 1911 census early?
jaq
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Okay, I'm going to play devil's advocate here ;).
YES, I think it should be opened early.
Or at least those folk who appear on the census and are still alive should be the only people to object.
I believe the plan is to release the householder returns. They should not be released early but the enumeration of address, names, ages, occupations should be on the proviso that everyone (or the majority) of folk over the age of 93 agrees to it.
The reasoning behind this in my mind is that anyone still alive (with very few exceptions) never put their info on voluntarily as they were small children at the time.
The statistics are available now as they are for all census and family history is the only real reason to want to see the 1911 (am I biased ;D ?)
I don't think government policy should be determine by whether there is an illegitimate child in the family and it has been pointed out BMD is freely available anyway - no father's name is listed for me, I'm not shamed - that's life. Property records are available now so you can piece it all together anyway the extra info is purely of interest to the family historian - whaaayyayy another Ag Lab!
The X year rule should be to protect people against fraud and if the assessment is that there is no threat from using the 1911 census then hohum let's see where my gggrandfather lived.
And lastly, the exclusion was based on an extension to the 30 yr rule. Well 100 just ain't pretty as a multiple of 30. 90 is much prettier!
Personally I can wait for 8 years but I'd rather not.
Cheers,
Pam
;D
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Hi Pam and thanks for your input.
"Personally I can wait for 8 years but I'd rather not."
here! here!
seriously, i dont reckon it will get released early,although i hope it does.
my main reason for starting the post was to get ideas and responses, not to wind anyone up.
Yes,if its released it will draw in a few bob,and yes quite a few of us family researchers will be smiling.
is that considered to be selfish? i just want to jump to the next available census [1911 UK] and knock down those barriers. lets face it, if it WAS released early, how many people who previously said "no way do we want it released" would refuse the chance to have a look?
::)
jaq
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see also
http://www.rootschat.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=145;action=display;threadid=2969
welsh Jen's posting..
ok, looks like end of subject :'( we now have 8 years to exhaust all other avenues...[depressing thought,isnt it?]
jaq
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Not supporting the 'early' release of 1911 is based on the belief the 100yr rule is hardfast. It is not. Very few of the earlier census were kept closed for the full 100years. I believe Denis McCready's site has full details.
I actually accessed 1901 census details of my grandfather's family in 1994. As I was next of kin I was entitled to access them, for a fee. I would gladly pay a fee to access my grandmother's 1911 census details *NOW*. My grandmother grew up without an identity thanks to 'information privacy' laws. Exactly who are we protecting here?
That said, if there is no actual legislation that prevents opening 1911 now to everyone, then release it.
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:) What about doing a poll asking persons say over 80 if they would mind if the census was opened early ? and if opened early who would it hurt ?? :-X
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:) What about doing a poll asking persons say over 80 if they would mind if the census was opened early ? and if opened early who would it hurt ?? :-X
Nice thought and i can't actually see it harming anyone.But with all The Government's problems at the moment,i can't see them devoting any time to a poll on this.
Stephen :-[
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Not supporting the 'early' release of 1911 is based on the belief the 100yr rule is hardfast. It is not. Very few of the earlier census were kept closed for the full 100years. I believe Denis McCready's site has full details.
I actually accessed 1901 census details of my grandfather's family in 1994. As I was next of kin I was entitled to access them, for a fee. I would gladly pay a fee to access my grandmother's 1911 census details *NOW*. My grandmother grew up without an identity thanks to 'information privacy' laws. Exactly who are we protecting here?
That said, if there is no actual legislation that prevents opening 1911 now to everyone, then release it.
How did you access the 1901 census,who did you contact to do it ??.
In the case of my Great Grand Parents and their children,all that were included in the 1911 census are now dead.It's the same with the other families i am researching,i am related to them all.So as a survivng relative would i be allowed early access ??.Who would i contact ??.
Steven ;D
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Hi Steven
1901 is now available online for everyone at
http://www.census.pro.gov.uk/
I accessed 1901 prior to the official release by writing to Office of Population Censuses & Surveys, St Catherine's House. They have probably moved by now.
I did contact the Dept re 1911 last year and they said no plans to release 1911 to next of kin or otherwise.
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I have read with interest the debate on the 1911 Census and while I understand the "Right's" of those who when they filled out the census return in 1911 about the 100 year rule... In Ireland the government decided to release the 1901 and 1911 census early... there was no uproar from pensioners giving out about their details being released early and we have all benefited from the information that it contains... Now I know since Irish records are so rare lol.. it was necessary to give the researcher something to get ones teeth into... but surely since the 1911 census here in Ireland was released in 1960 only 49 years after it being taken 70 or 80 years would be fine in the UK...
Best wishes
Mo
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::) I agree with you MO ::)
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:D I agree with you Mo .....
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I am not sure the 1911 census would help so much, since living memory is able to give most of these details.
Now if they were to release the full 1861 census in the same way as the 1901, that would be brilliant.
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????
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I have no living relatives and the 1911 would fill in so many gaps...... My grandparents were dead long before I was born so no one around to tell me ... please release the 1911... and the 1861 or am I being greedy ? ???
Best wishes
Mo
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The 1861 is available just not indexed - I find that and 1871 very useful. For some reason 1861 has given up valuable new info.
Pam
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I have no living relatives and the 1911 would fill in so many gaps...... My grandparents were dead long before I was born so no one around to tell me ... please release the 1911... and the 1861 or am I being greedy ? ???
Best wishes
Mo
i agree with you Mo, 1911 would knock down soooo many brick walls ::)
David says
" am not sure the 1911 census would help so much, since living memory is able to give most of these details."
David, do you mean newspapers and books?
jaq
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No - I meant the memories of living relatives. I guess I was lucky that I managed to get a pretty complete family tree back to about 1890 just by interviewing 4 great aunts.
Not everyone is so lucky.
DAvid.
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I bet theres so many people here on rootschat turning GREEN hearing of your luck, but still around to help when needed.
Well done on your families ability to remember and help ;)
jaq :)
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::) We need this census yesterday most of my family is either long gone or no memory of what happened yesterday let alone 100 years ago
!!!!
Lets have this census soon some of us need it now !!!
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;) If it were to be released early then I would hope Quinetic would not be involved, and that the transcribing would not be done by foreigners (must stress that I am not blaming the foreigners for the mistranscriptions!).
Joy
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i hope people wont take this the wrong.but the 1911 census, is not so very far back, [not for this old girl any way] and i am sure most family historians, would prefer older info like parish records, e.c.t. to be freely avaliable, on the internet.so let them keep the hundred year rule. regards nora T
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While I love tracing my family tree and finding out about my ancestors, I do understand that some issues are very sensitive and people may not wish their details (early employment, address, type/quality of housing etc) to become freely available. With life expectancy increasing I can understand that less than 100 years may make cause concern about privacy etc and I would hate to think of people worrying just to satisfy my curiosity :)
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??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
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I am right behind Nora on this one !
I think it would be really nice to see more coming through on Parish Records.
I had such a find recently, I was browsing some Directories in Salford, Lancashire and on a book shelf, I found an odd looking book, ever so plain but inside was over 300 years of Parish Records of a very, very tiny Village in Cheshire. The information it contained not only helped my tree but also there were lots of information regarding a one-name study group I belong too!!! It was wounderfull to read all the little messages noted as an extra.
There are lots of books like this lurking in our libraries which would be extremely helpfull especially if they go back 300 years or so.
I am quite happy to be a little patient as we all deserve a little privacy whatever our age :)
RootsChat
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hello roots chat admin, i am glad you agree with me, on the 1911 census, i have found the further back you get , the harder it gets,and we have lots of info up to 1837,after that it gets tough, i envy you your lucky find, it must have seemed like a miracle,but on line parish records , would be a boon. thanks again , regards nora T
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The early release would be a boon for us researching and in Ireland we can already browse through the 1911 census as earlier census data was destroyed. I haven't heard of it causing any problems. Like some one said most people alive that could be on this census would have been children and what the census held on them would be just their age and birthplace, and family and where they lived.
My mother who is 74 and thought she knew about her family has been amazed at what I have found out about her family in England and things she didn't know. A cousin of hers who is 93 has always wondered where her parents came from and was delighted when I was able to find out for her. So it could have its pluses. I am sure some bright spark could poll the 80+ and ask their opinion
as it affects them and take it from there. From the oldies in my family nobody has an objection.
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:D WOW SOME ONE ELSE WHO AGREES WITH ME !!
i agree we need it NOW ;D
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I have to say a peek at the 1911 just now would help me no end, I'm looking for the sister of one of my rellies the family appears to have been split up - and I'd love to know where their Father was in 1911 ::)
Suey
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OK first things first the HUNDRED YEAR RULE SHOULD STAY and I am well known on mailing lists for this stance but I do need to correct a few on here.
The 100 yr rule actually was never suggested to the ancestors this dint come about until 1961 I believe. So that shouldn't stop the early release of this census. What should is the fact that we all know it was to be 2012 before it came out but because a few people decided they cant wait its become a major issue.
Someone made mention of the fact about 1837online having civil registration info on its site. Well sorry but thats only a name no other details. For that you need the certificate and the GRO can refuse an application for one on the grounds of Family history if they suspect the person is still living. Whether they would or not is another matter but then at the end of the day that cert is going to one person. I wouldnt divulge information about living people and I hope that was the case with every family historian.
I think there is a case for future census to be closed down for say 75 years but I cant see this happening
rob
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sorry to reply late to an old topic, only reason i am is that in another post you mention your great grandfather was called White, i just wondered if he might be realetd to my great grandfather, i know its a slim chance but i felt i should see, my great grandfather was Arthur white, his dads name was Thomas white and his mothers Harriet Bowen, please contact me if we are related
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Okay, I'm going to play devil's advocate here ;).
YES, I think it should be opened early.
Or at least those folk who appear on the census and are still alive should be the only people to object.
I believe the plan is to release the householder returns. They should not be released early but the enumeration of address, names, ages, occupations should be on the proviso that everyone (or the majority) of folk over the age of 93 agrees to it.
The reasoning behind this in my mind is that anyone still alive (with very few exceptions) never put their info on voluntarily as they were small children at the time.
The statistics are available now as they are for all census and family history is the only real reason to want to see the 1911 (am I biased ;D ?)
I don't think government policy should be determine by whether there is an illegitimate child in the family and it has been pointed out BMD is freely available anyway - no father's name is listed for me, I'm not shamed - that's life. Property records are available now so you can piece it all together anyway the extra info is purely of interest to the family historian - whaaayyayy another Ag Lab!
The X year rule should be to protect people against fraud and if the assessment is that there is no threat from using the 1911 census then hohum let's see where my gggrandfather lived.
And lastly, the exclusion was based on an extension to the 30 yr rule. Well 100 just ain't pretty as a multiple of 30. 90 is much prettier!
Personally I can wait for 8 years but I'd rather not.
Cheers,
Pam
;D
In my opinion it is clear cut - it should not be released for 100 years as specified at the time of completion. There are no arguments that can outweigh that.
However I love Pam's idea of asking everyone over 93 if they mind! I can see this working well - but I'm worried this sort of questioning could worry people of that age so I would make one amendment - they should be accompanied by their parents at all times! ;D
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Although i understand the 100 year rule, i don't see what all the fuss is about.
What percentage of people live to be 100? Not many. On my family tee anyone that was born before 1930 have died, so in my case i would definately not find any living relatives for the 1911 or 1921 census.
And as someone else has pointed out, information is available from elsewhere and i can wait the exta 8 years, but i'd like it now.
May i ask who invented the 100 year rule in the first place? And why100 not 80 or 90?
Pauline
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I would love to have the 1911 census opened. However the Government of the United Kingdom promised it would not be disclosed for 100 years. I would like to see our governments keeping all their pledges - they won't and they don't but I could never encourage a breach. Hopefully one day we will get an honest government.
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As Hackstaple says, I suppose the fuss is about keeping a simple promise. The fact that not many people are alive that were made that promise and they are all old by definition, doesn't make that promise any less important.
I don't understand the argument that because the info is avialable elsewhere it should be released anyway - if it really was available then it wouldn't be necessary to release it at all!
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I don't understand the argument that because the info is avialable elsewhere it should be released anyway - if it really was available then it wouldn't be necessary to release it at all!
...Because we are creatures of detail. I know where my grandfather was born in 1903 and I know which town the family lived in but I want to know who the neighbours were.
As I said before though - don't need it, can wait, just WANT it!
Pam
;D
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:D :D
Let's get up a Petition to send to Government saying that we want the 1911 Census to be available soon.
With so many people into Genealogy these days, the 100 year rule is pure nonsense.
I'm sure if they were made aware of the revenue involved, they'd suddenly have a change of heart.
Howz about it folks ??
:) :) :)
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I second that. you have my vote
Wellie
P/s where do I sign ;)
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You'll get mine too!
Claudia
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And mine!
Sandie
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me too - and while you're at it what about 1921 and 1931? My grandparents married in 1929 and the only way i'm going to find gd's birthplace is from the 1931 census!!
sue
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Sorry, I would vote against.
People who provided the information were promised that the information would be kept secret for the set period. That period should not change .... change one and you have started to burst the dam.
me too - and while you're at it what about 1921 and 1931?
.... see what I mean
What argument could you then put up against the revelation of any and all information gathered at any time
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I agree with Falkryn.
Whatever would happen if we thought the government told porkies ??? ;D
Patience is a virtue :) :)
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you can't find a birthplace for your Grandfather ? have you his parents? doesn't it give his father on his marriage cert? what if 1911 doesn't give the info? campaign for 1921? etc.
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Over here in Ireland we have the 1911 census available, mostly on microfilm and disk though but it is still available.
I don't understand the need for a hundred year rule maybe a 75 year rule but 100 years is a bit extreme.
Sharon
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Agreed 100 years is a bit extreme.
Three of my grandparents were born in 1911, they are all gone now. The fourth is still here in body if not in spirit, born 1916 my gradma Lilian Maud James is the one I am having the most trouble tracking down. I would perhaps be able to find her parents marrriage details on the 1911, or at least pin her father down to an area of the country.
"Patience is a Virtue" is something we say to our kids isn't it.......I am afraid with genealogy, I want to know it all yesterday.
I'd sign
Siouxzie
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I strongly agree with Sharon and Souxzie. I think that a 75, 80 or 85 year rule would be better than the existing 100 years rule. If Ireland has it released why can't we have it too?
I don't want to sound selfish, but the 1911 census is VITAL to unlocking important info on my Hill, Hopkins, Burke & Munson families.
Like they say: "Good things come to those who wait".
::)
Ryan.
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I AGREE THE CENSUS SHOULD BE RELEASED EARLY, THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THE CENSUS AT THE TIME ARE LONG GONE, IF THEY WERE BORN IN 1911 THEY WOULD BE 94YRS OLD & HOW MANY WOULD BE BOTHERED ABOUT THEIR INFO BEING RELEASED, AT THAT AGE. MY MUM DIED LAST NOVEMBER AGED 90YRS, BEING BORN IN 1914, SINCE THEN I HAVE FOUND ALOT OF INFO ON HER RELATIVES & SHE IS NOT AROUND NOW SO I CAN TELL HER, THIS COULD APPLY TO PEOPLE FROM THE 1911 CENSUS, LET IT BE RELEASED & SHARE SOME FAMILY HISTORY WITH THEM BEFORE ITS TOO LATE.
MOIRA
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Keep it closed until 1912 as originally guaranteed. It is extremely hard to find any politician who considers a promise to be in any way binding - let us not petition them to break promises.
This may sound like a grumpy old man talking - I am that indeed - but dishonesty by politicians and governments is now so "expected" that we accept any transgression as minor. That includes lies to take us to War, Kofi Annan's son with his snout in the Iraq oil bowl, the totally selfish and corrupt European Commission and European Parliament, ballot box riggers, statistical "interpretations" etc.
How much more of it do you want? 8)
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My grandparents are tioo young to have been around for the 1911 census (the two surving are my 72 and 74 year old grandads) and even my great grandparents living siblings are only about 80, 85 - so they werent around either, but if they were alive then, i doubt they would be pleased that the government broke a promise.
Unfortunately, we will have to, and should have to, wait until 2011/2012.
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you can't find a birthplace for your Grandfather ? have you his parents? doesn't it give his father on his marriage cert? what if 1911 doesn't give the info? campaign for 1921? etc.
i have his son and i have his wife, but with a name like William Bailey finding a birth is a nightmare!
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It is my understanding that NO such 100 year rule was made to the people who provided their information in 1911, so how exactly would the government be lying if they released it now.
I say release it and pass on the revenue to the olds/relatives/care homes/hospitals etc responsible for looking after any people who appeared on the census who may still be alive. At least then the money raised would be put to good use, lord only knows how many of the oldies need it.
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I've read that the 1911 census will have more gaps than the previous victorian censuses due to the change in methods with collecting schedules and no collation on to enumerators booklets.
So regardless of political arguments for and against it may not help you.
Pam
;D
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i have his son and i have his wife, but with a name like William Bailey finding a birth is a nightmare!
You could try the old song "Won't you come home, Bill Bailey". :D
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I think that the 1911 census should be open.
Reasoning:
1. There were no assurances of 100-year confidentiality printed on the relevant 1911 census forms although I agree that the forms were marked Strictly Confidential.
2. The entries in the 1911 census include personal information which is public knowledge today (including the name, gender, age, occupation, nationality, birthplace, marital status, and relation to the head of household but no other information) and the release of census information would be unlikely to cause damage or distress to living or deceased.
3. The relevant sections of the 1911 census are likely to refer to some individuals whose personal details can now be lawfully inspected in the 1901 census returns.
4. Similar information is open to inspection after purchasing copies of the relevant birth and marriage certificates or by examining monumental inscriptions locally.
So why not? ???
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There were no assurances of 100-year confidentiality printed on the relevant 1911 census forms
True, but there was also nothing printed as to when the information would be released
The entries in the 1911 census include personal information which is public knowledge today
Therefore the 1911 census is redundant :P
sections of the 1911 census are likely to refer to some individuals
But not all
Similar information is open to inspection
Therefore the 1911 census is redundant :P
The reasons supplied by several participants have still failed to convince me and my main concern is that we are so impatient that we if we got the 1911 we would want the '21 next month and the '31 the next etc etc. Exactly the same arguments could be used to even insist on the release of the 2001 returns.
Having said all that IF a 50 or 75 year rule was introduced I would be up there in the queue for information ;D (who shouted hypocrite at the back ;D)