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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Mutthouse on Tuesday 03 May 11 22:34 BST (UK)
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I have finally got a date for the death of my 4xGt grandad James Braithwaite Brown as 19th January 1965, living out of mellish street poplar, notified by his son Harry.
I am looking to prove - or disprove that he was born in New Zealand. I am assuming that I need a full death certificate in order to find out for sure exactly where he was born is that right?
If so where would be the best place to source one - shall I go through gro or would it be better to approach the office concerned - at the time 1965 it was Poplar so would it still be poplar?
Thanks for the help and I apologise if it appears obvious :-*
nic xx
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nic,
A 1965 death certificate issued in England and Wales does not include the deceased's place of birth. Sorry.
If you know the informant, you already seem to have the full certificate, as you call it.
Nell
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Oh poo :-\
Any clues about how I find out where he was buried or cremated then?
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Just to save anyone from extra work- here's a thread on another website:
http://www.merchant-navy.net/forum/ask-forum/9400-can-you-help-solve-family-mystery.html
Have you tried searching for a newspaper obituary/death notices (place of burial/cremation details or a church might be mentioned)?
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Maybe it seems obvious so I will apologise again for my stupidity but how exactly would I do that? My only resource atm is a laptop and a phone as I can't get to london to go and have a good look round.
My question is, is there a way of proving his place of birth. I thought it would be on his death certificate. Ancestry isn't throwing anything up for me so as an amateur I am a bit lost ???
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Hi
Do you have his marriage certificate, if so who does it say his father is and his occupation - who are the witnesses. I see he was born c1879.
ADDED
If he was married here (Poplar) in 1906 have you found him on the 1911 census - that should give a place of birth.
Rosie
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This is my tree (I hope)
http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/19100793/family?cfpid=757291156
I have made it public - I hope this helps it shows what I know. I do have the marriage certificate of James and William is listed as a sheep farmer. Nothing in the searches on ancestry has come up for him. The names william and sarah on the tree are supposition at the moment till I can cross reference it so don't take that part as fact by any means. The rumour from my gdad is of a new zealand connection and on searching their sites I have found a family that fits but its a big leap that I am not comfortable with to just assume its right and plonk it in anyway and I would really like to prove it by having some sort of document that says he was born in new zealand (or durham I am not fussed lol).
I am inclined to think it is right given that James children bear some of the names of his siblings from NZ but its an assumption that I think I would be wrong in making? ? ?
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Rosie's advice to find him in 1911 census is excellent- if he was born in New Zealand it should say so and if in England you'll have a more exact location.
1911 census requests are not allowed - please see here:
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,355484.0.html
The index is free to search and there are lots of suggestions on this thread:
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,492718.0.html
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I did try looking on the 1911 census and it cost quite a few pennies and he wasn't any of the likely candidates. I did check above the age and below and nothing close. I did though only look in poplar.
I also searched for just his wife Clara as with James being a merchant seaman he might not have even been in the country at the time but nothing jumped out.
I feel like I am missing the obvious ::)
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I will look at 1911 again today it will be worth another few bob just to get this mystery solved
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This seems to be the birth of their son Edward. I'd search for him in 1911 rather than the parents.
Births Sep 1908
Edward Frederick C BROWN Chelsea 1a 364
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I have been searching for him and his mum clara in 1911 with no success, I have been cherry picking the most likely given that James was on the ships all his working life and they never strayed out of the east end and have just 10 credits left again now :-[
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I will look at 1911 again today it will be worth another few bob just to get this mystery solved
To try and save you some money have you looked at rootschat suggestions for finding people on the 1911 index http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,492718.0.html
Are you in the UK as there are some places you can view the 1911 for free ;D
Rosie
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They just don't seem to be anywhere do they?
Do you have their 1906 marriage cert,with a name like Samuels,I'm guessing they didn't marry in a church?
If so what addresses does it have it on and who were the witnesses?
Carol
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Do you have their 1906 marriage cert,with a name like Samuels,I'm guessing they didn't marry in a church?
Here's the certificate http://www.merchant-navy.net/forum/55508-post26.html
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For what it's worth, in 1891 and 1901 Clara was going by her middle name of Beatrice - but possibly only because her mother's name was Clara.
RG 12 / 323 / 36 / 10 and RG 13 / 348 / 79 / 6
Birth - Clara Beatrice Samuels, 2nd q. 1883, Islington 1b 330
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Not sure if the link will work but this is the marriage certificate
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/mutthouse/jamesbraitwaitemarriage001.jpg
my grandad says that the marriage wasn't approved of by clara's family and they disowned her afterwards, but as you can see her brother Edward is there and someone called esther samuels who I am for the moment assuming is edwards wife but I daren't try and find out who she is or else my brain might explode lol
I have trawled through the 1901 census to see who was living at 5 chadbourne street just a year before they were living there and then got married but no brown's or samuels there at the time so can only guess that it was short term let
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If his dad is a sheep farmer I can't see him coming from many places in the UK!
Odd that none of his family witnessed it-another reason to suggest they weren't over here maybe.
Carol
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Yes Jen thats the one - posted here too and it worked! woohoo i can train dogs but technology is a whole other ball game lol
Nanny beatty was a doozie!
I do know that James was a bit of a drinker being a sailor I am not sure why I am surprised. I did wonder if he was often at her majesties pleasure given that he also had a temper too.
I only have one confirmed birth for them and thats their second son Edward who was born in Chelsea in 1908 in chelsea north as Edward Frederick Charles Braithwaite Brown. None of the other siblings have the braithwaite element just Edward and at the time the informant was Clara who was living at 6 leader street chelsea
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Yes Carole I agree but I am loathed to make the assumption - would it be so wrong though lol
I would really like to confirm it for my grandad before his 80th birthday if I can - anyway I have to go and get to the shops before agility class starts so I will look back on this later on
thanks for all the input guys
nic xxx
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Using Free BMD there are lots of Brown/ Samuels births in Poplar after 1913.....are they all yours?
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
Carol
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Well done Jen she is indeed down as Beatrice ;D ;D ;D
Someone has their knickers in a twist as it shows that SHE was born in New Zealand.
Doesn't look like they called Edward by that name though - he's Charles!
Carol
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Doesn't look like they called Edward by that name though - he's Charles!
And the free index on Genes Reunited gives his birthplace as 60 Leader Street, Chelsea ;D ;D
The free index on GR gives James' birthplace as new North Road, Islington ;D
James and Beatrice/Clara have swopped birthplaces in 1911 ;D
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It's a mess........2 year old son Charles( Edward) is married!
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If his dad is a sheep farmer I can't see him coming from many places in the UK!
Carol
Sorry, but there were a lot of sheep farmers in the UK in 1906! In Kent, Romney Marsh was famed for its sheep....
Cati
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The GR free index gives Beatrice's birthplace (which it seems should be James's ::) ) as Manuhan Heads, New Zealand ;D ;D
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Wooo hoo Jen,I think we've got it ,by jove, we've got it ;D ;D ;D
Sorry Cati if sheep were in abundance in Kent- I only think of them in Wales 8)
Carol
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Sorry Cati if sheep were in abundance in Kent- I only think of them in Wales 8)
There were tens of thousands in the north of England as well ;)
I think we've got it too.
Mutthouse - going by the free index you need to search for Beatrice Brown born 1883 resident in Poplar. This should give you the family you want.
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And they say there are more sheep than people in New Zealand.
I put a post on here previously but can't find it. Strange? Here it is again.
Nic if you think your James Braithwaite Brown was born in New Zealand, have you put an enquiry on the NZ board to see if someone there can find his birth?
Dawn M
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Dawn,we've only literally just this second proved that ;D
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Just wondering if there's a connection to the James Braithwaite Brown born in York in 1862? Could William sheep farmer be a brother who emigrated?
https://www.familysearch.org/search/recordDetails/show?uri=https://api.familysearch.org/records/pal:/MM9.1.r/97V1-8WP/p1
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Dawn,we've only literally just this second proved that ;D
Sorry, I saw your jubilation but thought it was about sheep ;D ::)
Have we proved it or only think it must be so?
Dawn M
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Have we proved it or only think it must be so?
Given the birthplaces, Carol and I think think we can be fairly certain.
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Well done Jen and Carol - I only stopped for coffee and look what you found ;D ;D
Rosie
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Yahoo!!! Could this be it?
1875/97 Sarah Ann Braithwaite William Brown
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Search/Search.aspx?Path=%2fqueryEntry.m%3ftype%3dmarriages#SearchResults
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It's up to Nic to confirm but it seems pretty conclusive- the 2 year old was born at 6 Leader Street(transcribed as 60)
Mum born Islington and called Beatrice in previous censuses.
The parents ages are a bit off mind you.
I think Fifer has a point- William went to NZ and named his son James Braithwaite Brown after his brother.......who then came back here.
Mmm certainly worth looking at methinks.
Carol
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Public member trees on Ancestry are not fully viewable by non paying subscribers.
We see the name, see below for what information is displayed
Clifford
Public Member Tree
3 sources Joseph Braithwaite Brown
Birth: dd mm 1862 - city, Cumberland, England
Death: date - Leicestershire
Marriage: date - city
Spouse: name surname
F: John Brown
M: Isabella Braithwaite
Mick
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FOUND HIM!!!
1881/4919 Brown James Braithwaite Sarah Ann William
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FOUND HIM!!!
1881/4919 Brown James Braithwaite Sarah Ann William
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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So James Braithewaite Brown WAS born in NZ in 1881 to Sarah Ann [Braithewaite] and William Brown.
Ooops so excited I forgot to post the link
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Search/Search.aspx?Path=%2fqueryEntry.m%3ftype%3dbirths#SearchResults
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QED Fifer and well done ;D
And the oldest son got grandma's surname as one of his names.
If he was born in 1881 as we suspected earlier- goodness knows why he put that he was 44 in 1911 ???
Carol
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It's up to Nic to confirm but it seems pretty conclusive- the 2 year old was born at 6 Leader Street(transcribed as 60)
Mum born Islington and called Beatrice in previous censuses.
Using a combination of the various free indexes available and some cross-referencing we come up with this household in 1911:
James Brown born 1867 New North Rd Islington
Beatrice Brown born 1883, Manuhan Heads New Zealand
Charles Brown born 1909 60 Leader Street Chelsea
Jennie Brown 1910 49 Tidey Street Bow
A good mornings work I think ;D
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If he was born in 1881 as we suspected earlier- goodness knows why he put that he was 44 in 1911 ???
Well, he got nearly everything else wrong, didn't he ;D
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Using Free BMD there are lots of Brown/ Samuels births in Poplar after 1913.....are they all yours?
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
Carol
Pretty much seems as though they were then ;)
Carol
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If he was born in 1881 as we suspected earlier- goodness knows why he put that he was 44 in 1911 ???
Well, he got nearly everything else wrong, didn't he ;D
Nic did say he liked a drink ;D ;D ;D
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I think now we sit back and wait for Nic to reappear ;)
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bros and sisters
1877/5269 Brown Margaret Annie Sarah Ann William
1878/17662 Brown Isabella Sarah Ann William
1881/4919 Brown James Braithwaite Sarah Ann William
1883/13646 Brown Jessie Sarah Ann William
1885/20233 Brown George Gordon Sarah Ann William
1888/3856 Brown Thomas Braithwaite Sarah Ann William
1889/10319 Brown Frederick Gilbert Sarah Ann William
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Add another brother born NZ
1875/14838 Brown William Braithwaite Sarah Anne William
and brother Thomas death NZ
1889/3854 Brown Thomas Braithwaite 1Y
Mick
ps found what I think is Nic's tree on Mundia
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Isn't it fab how we all approach this from different angles with our own area's of expertease 8) and within about an hour we have the whole picture.
What a team ;)
Carol
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It's up to Nic to confirm but it seems pretty conclusive- the 2 year old was born at 6 Leader Street(transcribed as 60)
Mum born Islington and called Beatrice in previous censuses.
Using a combination of the various free indexes available we come up with this household in 1911:
James Brown born 1867 New North Rd Islington
Beatrice Brown born 1883, Manuhan Heads New Zealand
Charles Brown born 1909 60 Leader Street Chelsea
Jennie Brown 1910 49 Tidey Street Bow
A good mornings work I think ;D
I think that's an error in recording or transcription perhaps should be Manukau Heads.
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Oh my goD I could kiss you all!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes that is them! I can't believe it - I have the marriage of William and Sarah and the same as found all those children half of which share names with James's children
And the new zealand connection is what I needed to prove and this is it!
Its obvious that all the info has been put in the wrong way round and thats why I couldn't find any of it! No wonder I was going out of my tiny little mind lol
I can't thank you enough I really can't! It all marries up - grandad had said that there was at least another son older than edward of james' that had died very young so that edward frederick charles (obviously called charles) became the eldest - he is also probably the reason that my grandad (edward's grandson )is called charles as his first name in honor of him.
It all fits and is no longer such a big leap of faith!
I will post in the new zealand section what we have so that anyone looking for james's english crew can find us - or avoid us lol
Once again thank you all for the help!
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Please wish your Grandad a very VERY happy 80th from us all! :-* :-*
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Please wish your Grandad a very VERY happy 80th from us all! :-* :-*
Seconded :-* :-*
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Oh gosh yes! I have just phoned him but he is obviously out galavanting. Its funny but given that we were all east end londoners born and bred I always felt like I didn't belong in the city and ended moving to norfolk where we keep chickens - I would have sheep in a heartbeat but the husband needs more convincing and now I know where I get my farming genes from 5xgt grandad william!
He will be beaming when he hears the news no doubt xxx
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:) As a Kiwi, I would just check out that "Manahan Heads. Actually, I've never heard of of it and think it could probably be Manakau Heads, which is one of the entrances to Auckland Harbour in the North Island. Manakau itself was the third biggest city in New Zealand, although that may have changed with recent boundary changes in Auckland. (I'm not an Aucklander so not up with the play up there)! ;D
Hope this is helpful, just thinking, kau can very easily look like han, if the reader is not familiar with Maori placenames. Certainly not criticising, just a friendly observation. Have another look and see if it could be Manakau
Jeanne ;)
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I think that's an error in recording or transcription perhaps should be Manukau Heads.
Yes Fifer did come up with that suggestion yesterday.The writing on the census image is horrendous and all over the place so it;s hardly surprising that neither us nor the transcriber could read it properly ::)
Thank you ;D
Carol
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Oops, sorry Fifer, Looking back at it, I think I must have answered that when I read the "Manahan" and just dived straight in the deep end without reading down at the posts that followed. LOL
Jeanne ;D
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Don't worry Jeanne- it turned out to be a very long thread in the end.
But between us we got there.
It's great to have a bit of NZ geography though ;D
Carol
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Easy to miss my post there Jeanne. ;)
Nic have you seen the pics?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manukau_Heads
a few on here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sondyaustin/635358062/
Loads on Manukau Harbour on Papers Past too.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast
always worth doing the back up research! Just think of the fun for your Grandad!
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Wow that is beautiful ;D
Looks like they sailed in to Auckland harbour from England and decided it was so nice they never moved any further into NZ, and settled in that area,until grandad sailed back to good old blighty when he was old enough ;)
Carol
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Is it far from Timaru? Thats where they were married which is also apparently a port.
Would James have been able to join the merchant navy from there do you think?
It is absolutely fascinating ;D
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Timaru is not on North Island it's on South Island between Christchurch and Dunedin so a fair old distance. I suspect he was already off on his travels!
1213 km or 755 miles between Manukau Heads and Timaru.
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It would have been where his parents married. William and Sarah so maybe they married there on their arrival - unless of course its just where things are registered?!?
Unless of course he listed Manakau as his home town although his parents married and he was born in Timaru in the same way that everything else is mixed up on that listing maybe the census chap asked the wrong question?
Either way it has to be the right listing given all the indicators so I am happy lol ;D
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Either way it has to be the right listing given all the indicators so I am happy lol ;D
Happy ,but confused eh Nic ?
;D ;D ;D
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Right so William married there ......... what year? Sounds like they thought there was a better deal on North Island! ;D
Have you found Wms exit UK and entry date to NZ yet? Papers Past gives arrivals and departures sometimes lists steerage too and will also proably list the couples arrival at Manukau Harbour.
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James was born in Timaru on 12 May 1881 (I have this certificate but it hasn't photographed well enough to read)
On the cert is says that William and Sarah were married in Timaru on 10th Ferbruary 1874 with James being the third born according to the list of births I have for them from the NZ BMD
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Going to search papers past - do you have a link?
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Unless of course he listed Manakau as his home town although his parents married and he was born in Timaru in the same way that everything else is mixed up on that listing maybe the census chap asked the wrong question?
The heading on the column in question is 'Birthplace' and part (2) would have been relevant - 'If born in any other part of the British Empire, write the name of the dependency, Colony, etc., and of the Province of State'. This would have been filled in by the head of the household - not by the census enumerator, who simply distributed the forms and then collected them after census day.
However quite often it seems that people entered where they thought they'd been born rather than the true place - if he'd lived in Manukau as a child he might have though he'd been born there although actually born elsewhere.
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Going to search papers past - do you have a link?
Fifer gave the link in reply 58 ;)
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Were all the children born in Timaru?? If not you may be able to identify an approximate time of moving North.
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https://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Search/Search.aspx?Path=%2fqueryEntry.m%3ftype%3dbirths#SearchResults
In there I count 7 children. I have not ordered any certificates other than Jame's so I don't know where the others were born but James was in Timaru where they were married.
Sorry missed the link in all my excitement lol
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Just to tease you all the 'legend' from grandad was that someone connected with NZ performed some sort of rescue (likened to Grace Darling) and that is why they are braithwaite brown - whether it was William or James or even true at all (this is all from a drunken sailor remember lol) is anybodys guess but if you come across anything do let me know lol :D
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Just to tease you all the 'legend' from grandad was that someone connected with NZ performed some sort of rescue (likened to Grace Darling) and that is why they are braithwaite brown - whether it was William or James or even true at all (this is all from a drunken sailor remember lol) is anybodys guess but if you come across anything do let me know lol :D
I thought that it had been established earlier in this thread that Braithwaite was a name which came through his mother's side of the family ??? ???
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It is I am sure of it ;)
But the rumour was the life saving story - maybe william swept sarah off her feet, they fell in love on the boat on the way to NZ and got hitched - who knows. I think maybe he romantisiced (sp?) it a little after all it was a story for his grandkids.
Rest assured though I am convinced we have the right tree - I wouldn't mind a glimpse into the love story though too <3