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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: MacShuibhne on Monday 02 May 11 23:58 BST (UK)
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Hi all
Hoping someone can help in deciphering an entry in an 1851 census return
I have recently acquired from SP an image of the 1851 census for my 4G grandparents William & Catherine Hunter (ms Weir) who were listed at 186 Main Street, Anderston in the Barony Parish of Glasgow. [GROS 622-00 072-00 011]
I am struggling to interpret the place of birth for Catherine. Her County of birth is recorded as Renfrew, and the Parish looks like "Ashent" but I cannot find any information to support this parish ever existed.
Catherine's age is given as 45 which would give her a birth year c1805. I have looked at the available mapping for this time period (and later) on National Library of Scotland website but cannot see a Parish even remotely similar to that recorded in the Census. To date all information on this family locates them between Partick and Yoker on the north side of the River Clyde part which would have been within the County of Renfrew. Even considering the possibility of boundary changes I still cant find this place.
The only working theory I have is that the enumerator may have recorded a placename (farm, house, village etc) instead of the parish name. Is this probable? possible or perhaps a common feature.
All contributions welcome
Regards
MacShuibhne
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Can you scan the part of the image showing her birthplace and upload it so we can have a look at it.
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On freecen 1851 Catherine 45 has been transcribed as Ashton Renfrewshire. . (Didn't see either of them freecen 1841.) Think this is Ashton, Gourock, Renfrewshire. (Google on Ashton, Inverclyde) There are still streets in Gourock with the name Ashton. Liz
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Hi
Carole - The second line on the attached extract shows the detail I am having difficulty with. Even comparing each individual letter against others it is not obvious what the third letter is althought I read it as "h"
Hoping a fresh pair of eyes is more successful
(http://i1038.photobucket.com/albums/a468/3rd-of-6/RenfrewParish.jpg)
Liz - Thanks for the assist. I'll zoom into Gourock on NLS to try and locate Ashton, although this would support the theory that not all recorded County and Parish.
regards
MacShuibhne
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Not a Parish according to Genuki.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/RFW/rfw_pmap2.html
Could it be an area within the town of Renfrew itself? To be fair I don't see two upper stroke letters in the middle to suggest Ashton though there appears to be a "t" on the end. :-\
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although this would support the theory that not all recorded County and Parish.
I would agree that this list does NOT show Parishes, in fact it shows County followed by Town or Village.
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Hi Fifer1947
Thanks for the comment. I'm still no further forward with this one.
I'll put a post up on the deciphering/recognizing help board, see if a wider audience can help.
regards
MacShuibhne
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Ashton was located in the south-west of Gourock in the Parish of Innerkip.
Just googled it
Regards Ron
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Hi All
Many thanks for your comments and suggestions. I posted the query on the Deciphering board and "macintosh" suggested it may be a phonetic variant of Erskine. This backs up the theory that Census entries recorded towns/villages etc and not parishes as I previously thought ::).
I will follow up on Erskine and Ashton.
Regards
MacShuibhne
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It does look pretty like "rk" and not "sh". Perhaps Erskine was pronounced differently back then. Cuthie
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i have stayed in renfrew all my life and i have never heard of any where called that before
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I wondered whether it was a farm "Arken" named after the farmer and maybe there was a misunderstanding about the placename required and it should have been Kilbarchen :-
WILLIAM ARKEN Male
Birth: 02 FEB 1756
Christening: 06 FEB 1756 Kilbarchan, Renfrew,
Parents:
Father: JOHN ARKEN
Mother: JANET WILSON
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I wondered whether it was a farm "Arken" named after the farmer and maybe there was a misunderstanding about the placename required and it should have been Kilbarchen :-
WILLIAM ARKEN Male
Birth: 02 FEB 1756
Christening: 06 FEB 1756 Kilbarchan, Renfrew,
Parents:
Father: JOHN ARKEN
Mother: JANET WILSON
Interesting variation to this query, I hadn't considered anything like this.
One that has resonance/credibility is that it could be "Asken" a potential phonetic variation of Erskine and has been transcribed as such on several occasions on FreeCEN
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The census sheets we see are copied from household sheets and it could be that the writing on the original sheet was illegible for some reason. This ancestor wasn't the only one on the census who was born at "Arken/Erskine/Ashten" - or a "familiar" nickname of (Kilb)Archan. (I think "kil" means church so was the hamlet Archan away down the road from that building?).
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It might be an idea to make a note of the other person and follow that person to the next census to see what village name transpires. For all we know it really was "Ashton" but a mistake was made with the spelling transposed = "Ashont"
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Renfrewshire certainly crossed the Clyde to include Partick before it was added to Glasgow. There is an Ashton Lane in Partick. Skoosh.
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The census sheets we see are copied from household sheets and it could be that the writing on the original sheet was illegible for some reason...
I've had another look at the full image and noticed that the person who entered each line from the household sheet has written with a tail/flourish at the end of each word which leads me to think maybe it is a five letter word ending in "n" not "nt" :-\
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On the 1841. census for Govan, Lanark,
Address Knowehead, we have this family.
Hunter William, M. age 30 years, Wright. born outside census area,
Hunter Catherine, F. age 30 years, born Lanarkshire,
Hunter Jean, F. age 11 year, born Lanarkshire,
Hunter Robert, M. age 10 years, born Lanarkshire,
Hunter William, M. age 8 years born Lanarkshire,
Hunter Mary, age 6 years born Lanarkshire,
Hunter Catherine, age 2 years, born Lanarkshire,
Young Robert, M 20 years, Gardener, born Lanarkshire,
Young Robina, f 20 years , born outside census area.
The 1841. census the ages of adults were supposed to be rounded down to nearest whole number.
I know the ages of William, and Catherine, are a bit out going by the 1851. census, i am almost certain this is your couple.
William, is a Wright, same job as sawyer, or carpenter, the children are correct.
On this census Catherine is born in Lanarkshire, so its possible the wrong birth location on the 1851 census.
If her birth location is indeed lanark then there is a possible birth for her which could knit things together.
Catherine Weir, born 28/Feb/1805. Glasgow, Lanark, to parents Robert Weir, and Janet Alexander.
William, and Catherine, have children called Robert, and Janet.
I would be going all out to find Catherine Weir's, death certificate provided she died some time after 1855. which should verify her parents names.
Regards,
Jonn.
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On the 1841. census for Govan, Lanark,
Address Knowehead, we have this family.
Hunter William, M. age 30 years, Wright. born outside census area,
Hunter Catherine, F. age 30 years, born Lanarkshire,
Hunter Jean, F. age 11 year, born Lanarkshire,
Hunter Robert, M. age 10 years, born Lanarkshire,
Hunter William, M. age 8 years born Lanarkshire,
Hunter Mary, age 6 years born Lanarkshire,
Hunter Catherine, age 2 years, born Lanarkshire...
...On this census Catherine is born in Lanarkshire, so its possible the wrong birth location on the 1851 census.
If her birth location is indeed lanark then there is a possible birth for her which could knit things together.
Catherine Weir, born 28/Feb/1805. Glasgow, Lanark, to parents Robert Weir, and Janet Alexander.
William, and Catherine, have children called Robert, and Janet.
I would be going all out to find Catherine Weir's, death certificate provided she died some time after 1855. which should verify her parents names.
Regards,
Jonn.
Hi Jonn
I certainly agree that there are some striking similarities between the info I already have and that in the 1841 census. I know Mary was the 4th child of William & Catherine from her birth OPR in May 1835 and given the 1841 Census was held in June Mary would indeed be 6. Also William's parents were Robert & Jean therefore no surprises to see those names appear as children.
(EDIT) I had a check on NLS and noted that the 1858 OS map lists a Knowe Street literally round the corner from Bridge Street (later renamed Partick Bridge Street) this fits with their daughter's (Catherine) birth in Kelvinhaugh where the family are known to have stayed. I also cross referenced the map against the Header Page of the 1841 Census which shows the area of Knowe Street would have been included in the census
The family have a history of not giving accurate ages. Almost all of the documentation acquired for them has discrepancies with ages (particularly Catherine junior)
Re Catherine's death - I did a very quick search on SP and only returned 28 hits for a death of Catherine Weir between 1855 and 1865 so not a huge amount to look through. My earlier mistake was adding too many fields. Although entering 1805 as the birth year narrows the above down to just 3 hits in 1857.
All this still leaves the initial query on what has been recorded as the location in the 1851 census entry - Renfrew, ?Arken/Asken?.
Thanks for the assistance, I'll spend some more time on SP to follow these leads.
Regards
MacShuibhne
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Hi MacShuibhne
The census entry, could it be Alloa? It is/was in Clachmannanshire.
Cheers
NZMacGibbon (with Argyll and , late 1700s, Perthshire links)
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hi there,
what place does the person give on the other censi. it might be clearer there. have had a good look on scots people but cannot find anything conclusive
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Hi Celia
Unfortunately the 1861 Census lists William as a widower therefore Catherine would only appear in the 1841 and 1851 Census. Given that the 1841 Census only recorded a simple Y or N if born in Scotland there is no other readily available source for her place of birth. I believe she married William c1828 but even then there are issues with whether she was born in same parish. I have still to track her OPR marriage entry (assuming she did marry and assuming it was not an irregular border marriage). I can only hope she died after 1855 to give some chance of finding more info.
thanks for looking
MacS
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hi macs
dome a favour, give me full names that you have and ages etc. any children they had and any times and dates (that your definiate about and are definitely yours even if it means comng forward again and i'll backtrack) and I'll have a closer look for you. not promising but might come up with something. take it you havent her found burial?? did have a quick look and could not find any place similar to whats been written in renfrewshire but will now have a closer look
email me if you like (*)
regards
celia
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by the way
meant to say. my line are hunters from clackmannanshire, airdire, new monkland then later stonehouse. if you have your tree on line send me link and i'll get my paperwork out and have a looksy
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Hi Celia
Found a death entry in 1860 that looks like the same Catherine. Still doesn't answer the query about her birth parish though. ::) but throws another wild curve as it has her parents as Peter Weir and Mary Robb who may come from Aberdeen ???
As asked for I've sent you various Hunter details to your email if you care to have a look :D