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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: KatC on Monday 02 May 11 18:52 BST (UK)
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I am confused by the information I am seeing and won't be able to order information for a while. Would anyone advise me on an approach?
Joseph Doak Sr died 1898 per PRONI and his will mentions Joseph (Sarah) as one of his executors. There is no civil record of the death on familysearch to give the age. Is Sarah the mother or the wife of Joseph (Sarah)? Sarah says she was born about 1851 to 1856, she said she was widowed in 1901, and she died in 1909.
Alexander Doak b May 12, 1879 (m. Hannah Martha Finlay) is the son of Joseph Doak and Sarah per the family's obituary. Sister Elizabeth Doak b. abt 1886 (m. John Terry) also claims Joseph and Sarah are parents. She is living with widowed Sarah in 1901. I can not find a marriage civil record for Alex or for Sarah or for Joseph marrying a Sarah.
Son Joseph and William J. were living in Ireland in 1942 per an obituary. Son Joseph should be in the census and about 30 or less. He appears to be the illegitimate? son born to a Sarah Doak in 1866 (no father listed in civil but a Livingston listing suggests John Livingston). He appears to have married Mary Jane Wilson and is the only reasonably aged Joseph (Valentine Doak also had a son Joseph of the same age, though.).
Dau Sarah Jane b. 1875 had married Samuel James Boyce in 1895 and lived in Ireland. There is a civil record of her marriage. Possibly this is the Sarah Jane b. 1871. Sarah's son Samuel Edmund b. July 13, 1882 is the only child who definitely has a birth certificate. He was boarding with Martha (Doak) McCutcheon in 1901 and claimed she was his mother when emigrating. Martha looks like the dau of Valentine Doak. One of Martha's descendents was checking Samuel Edmund's baptism record, I think.
If unmarried Sarah Doak had a son who is brother to the son of a married Sarah Doak, she either married a Joseph Doak or the children claimed her father as her husband. Is a birth certificate more reliable than a marriage record? Would familysearch have all the civil records or shall I check the index to civil records?
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Alexander Doak's marriage to Hanna Martha Finlay is registered in Banbridge Jul - Sept 1900 Volume 1, page 235.
There's a death registered in Lisburn in Jan - Mar 1898 for Joseph Wilson Doake, b 1823, Volume 1, page 560. Is that your Joseph?
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Hi
Doak/finlay marriage was on 10 Jul 1900 in Tullylish Presbyterian Church, Banbridge.
Regards
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Thank you for answering. That was quite thoughtful.
The Finlays had put some information on familysearch, but did not include Alexander's father for some reason. I assume they saw the record and they also noted that sister Phinia Finlay married James Alex Doak. He has a brother Samuel Edmund Doak born the year before Joseph and Sarah's, so I am expecting the Sam Edmunds to be cousins. Edmunds are rare. It would be natural to include this information.
It just feels like something is wrong.
I feel like there are too many children for them all to be illegitimate, but can't find any trace of a marriage for Alexander's parents or many of the birth records. I have no idea what an illegitimate child puts on a marriage record as a father, but I wondered if I could trust a marriage record.
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I saw the Joseph Wilson Doake, but Lisburn discouraged me. The will mentioned Joseph of Ballynagarrick and the"widow" Sarah was in Ballynagarrick in 1901. However it is reasonable to have Wilson as a middle name, so I should check.
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Have to say the original post here has me quite confused.
Joseph Doak Sr died 1898 per PRONI and his will mentions Joseph (Sarah) as one of his executors. There is no civil record of the death on familysearch to give the age.
There's a death registered in Lisburn in Jan - Mar 1898 for Joseph Wilson Doake, b 1823, Volume 1, page 560. Is that your Joseph?
I searched PRONI Wills and can't find a record of a Joseph Doak who died in 1898 although I did find Valentine Doak "late of Ballynagarrick County Down Pensioner who died 10 October 1898." Will mentions wife Priscilla, son James, daughters Margaret Elizabeth* & Lily Bella, son Alexander (America).
I can not find a marriage civil record for Alex or for Sarah or for Joseph marrying a Sarah.
Civil registration index lists a marriage- Joseph Doak, Jan./Mar.1878 Banbridge registration district, volume 1 page 243
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No wonder I am lost.
Joseph Sr died 1922 and executor Joseph (Sarah) is Joseph who married Mary Jane Wilson in 1891. This Joseph was born about the right time for him to be the illegitimate son of Sarah.
The Joseph who married in 1878 married Elizabeth Jane Fulton.
Priscilla had both sons Samuel and Alexander in the US before Valentine died says his will. I will look for them. However, the Samuel Edmund, Alexander, and Elizabeth who move to NY arrive after 1905 and would not be the children mentioned in Valentine's will. Valentine died Oct 10, 1898 and I caught the his death date as Joseph's by mistake. So these are not children of Valentine.
Sarah is almost certainly the lady in the 1901 census with Elizabeth 15 as her daughter. 2 of their 3 NY obituaries mentions parents Joseph and Sarah Doak and siblings William J. and Joseph in Ireland when Samuel Edmund Doak died. There is a Joseph living with Joseph and Annie (Rogers) who married in 1891. Annie lists no children but has son Joseph born about 1889. She sounds like a second wife.
I have a potential mother Sarah and a potential brother Joseph living with father Joseph. Maybe there is a divorce?
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Still can't quite understand all the details posted. Take this for example-
Sarah's son Samuel Edmund b. July 13, 1882 is the only child who definitely has a birth certificate. He was boarding with Martha (Doak) McCutcheon in 1901 and claimed she was his mother when emigrating. Martha looks like the dau of Valentine Doak.
Why do you say Martha Doak is probably Valentine's daughter?
Martha Doak married Thomas McCutcheon (her marriage certificate would confirm her father's name) and in both 1901 and 1911 census a Joseph Doak is in the household (and Martha's son is named Joseph McCutcheon)-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Tullylish/Ballynagamick/1243843
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Tullylish/Ballynagarrick/252704
Also, Valentine's Will doesn't mention a daughter Martha.
Priscilla had both sons Samuel and Alexander in the US before Valentine died says his will. Can't remember seeing a son Samuel in Valentine's Will either.
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Hi,
According to the index in Ancestry Ireland Martha Doak's father was Joseph.
Regards
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Thanks for finding that- I think Martha's father was the Joseph Doak listed in the McCutcheon household 1901 and 1911.
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Another bit I'm trying to figure out-
Sarah's son Samuel Edmund b. July 13, 1882 is the only child who definitely has a birth certificate. He was boarding with Martha (Doak) McCutcheon in 1901 and claimed she was his mother when emigrating. Martha looks like the dau of Valentine Doak. One of Martha's descendents was checking Samuel Edmund's baptism record, I think.
In 1901 a Samuel Doak and family are listed-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Tullylish/Ballynagamick/1243825
Probate of the Will of Samuel Dock late of Ballynagarick County Down Farmer who died 16 March 1908 granted at Belfast to Joseph Cairns Farmer and Samuel Edmund Doak Mill Worker. Will mentions wife Martha, daughters Hannah Martha & Minnie Anna, son Samuel Edmund (executor).
In 1901 Samuel's son "Edmund" in living at home. His mother's name was Martha which possibly has been confused with Martha (Doak) McCutcheon.
A Samuel E. Doak went to Canada from Belfast in 1927.
In 1911 census there are 2 Samuel Doaks (born Co.Down areounf the same age)-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Tullylish/Ballymacanallen/252613
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Windsor/Lisburn_Avenue/153778
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Valentine had children Martha and Joseph born elsewhere and of the right age, which had me thinking they were involved. The problem of referring to Joseph and Samuel Edmund as boarders was an issue- were they close relatives or family? That Valentine did not mention Martha in his will could be explained by her being married. I am still struggling with my computer to get into PRONI wills, but yesterday saw that Alexander and then Samuel were offered property if they would return to live in the home.
However, Martha McCutcheon having father Joseph sounds right given her son's name and is very valuable.
Samuel Edmond who went to Canada to his sister is the man born a year before in 1881. He is on Rootsweb, son of Samuel and Martha (Maxwell) Doak and marrying twice in Belfast. He is Samuel one place and Edmond another. Samuel, the father, has parents Alexander and Jane. Dau Martha married James Anderson and lived in Gilford. The close naming in the families is amazing as Edmond was rarely used. I am hoping to find why it exists, the name and the relationship.
The Sarah who lives with Elizabeth in 1901 seems to be Sarah, the mother of Alexander, Sam Edmond, etc. At least that Elizabeth looks the same age as the one born in 1884 per her NY obituary. She is listed as female in the civil records I think. I can probably order that as well as Samuel Edmund's. Only the 1882 birth record for Samuel Edmond is definitely a record for this family which would give Sarah's last name.
Sarah is about 50 (Doak dates are often off) and would have married about 1870 and the birthyear of the oldest child I know is 1875. If Sarah is 50, that puts the date of father Joseph's marriage close to or before 1850 which means it is not in civil records. However, Sarah's marriage should be and she might be using a middle name. Her husband, if dead, would have died between 1883 and 1901 and also may be using his middle name. I haven't checked that out.
I have a list of local Doak marriages, but didn't track ones like Valentine's who was moving around. I have looked for Joseph/Sarah marriages elsewhere in Ireland, but not found anything.
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If Sarah is 50, that puts the date of father Joseph's marriage close to or before 1850 which means it is not in civil records.
Civil registration of non-catholic marriages stered in 1845.
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You are right, it is possible it can be found. The church records date to 1833ish and are filled with Doaks. They might be a better source, but I was told they all have the same names and the situation is very difficult.
I've looked at the Doak tree on-line and it differs from my portions of Wilson tree and the tree of Job Doak's family. I think the owner lumped names with similar dates more than other people did. For instance Margaret (Sands) Doak is not buried in Amsterdam in 1914, but Margaret N. Doak was though both were married to James Doak born about 1832 to father John.
Family researchers thought John, son of John and brother to Job was John 1818-1882 with children in the will William and farmer Joseph b. 1840 and dau Ann Jane (Doak) McMurray (note this correction to the on-line tree) and probably Margaret (Doak) Spence. Wm married Margaretta Elliott. I don't know this Joseph's wife.
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I am not sure if I can be of any help, however, I am the grandson of Elizabeth Doak mentioned in this chain of replies. I can confirm that she died in 1968 in Amsterdam, NY and was the wife of John Terry.
They were married on March 4, 1915.