RootsChat.Com
General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: Tisy on Monday 12 July 10 03:55 BST (UK)
-
Hi,
At the risk of been shot down in flames, I am raising this question as it seems to be a topic too hot to handle on many of the Rootsweb sites. The problem arises in that it is considered "off-topic" to even raise the question of whether you have used this method of research to supplement the more traditional methods of transcribing parish records etc. It tends to be seen (particularly by soem of the British sites) as just an "American fad" and of not use because it doesn't actually tell you who your ancestor may be. It is however more complex than that, and having used Y-DNA testing to help in the search for my great-grandfather's father (he was illegitimate and took his mother's name) I have now been establish with some certainty the name of our male line, as well as where this person came from, which correlates with the scant information which I have.
I would love to be able to discuss this online with a wider range of people than those of the same surname on the dedicated sites (we are all there, after all, because we don't know where we originated in most cases, and as with mine, we have no idea what our line is, except for a possible name.
Is there a case for having a dedicated forum on this site for this purpose, and indeed on Rootsweb? If so, it would mean that we could draw in many people who have used DNA testing with their views, as well as others who are considering it.
Cheers,
Tisy
-
I don't see why you should get shot down in flames - the topic has come up a number of times in the past.
Personally I haven't (yet!) gained anything from it. My Y-test doesn't match with anyone at all - either the same or different surnames, but I can see how it is potentially very useful if for example you can trace back to an immigrant (into whatever country you're in), but want some pointers as to where they came from before this.
-
the topic has come up a number of times in the past.
You can find some of these topics under DNA testing in the
RootsChat Reference (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/Themes/history/images/english/library.gif) (http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/index.php) => Lexicon (click here) (http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/reflib-lexicon.php?letter=D)
(Tip: click on a category - on the right - for related topics)
Bob
-
Hi Berlin Bob,
Thanks for the pointer - will have a look.
MSallen - perhaps you could tell me how you tested - was it just to 12 markers? This is one of the issues that is coming up. A 12-marker test is worse than useless, especially if you belong to a very common haplogroup as we do (R1b) - this haplogroup is the most common in Western Europe, so if you test at 12 markers only, you will come up with 100's of exact matches (all different surnames) and this is no help at all. We tested to 67 markers; at 12 markers we had more than 100 exact matches from all over the world. At 25 markers it was narrowed down to four matches, (two surnames) one of which was close. At 37 markers it was down to three close matches all of the same surname. At 67 markers we have one close match to a person whom we share a common ancestor with 7 generations ago in Derbyshire My illegitimate g-grandfather was born in Barnsley - just down the road, so this has been of great help to us. This means that his g-g-g-grandfather and our match's 5-great-grandfather were possibly one and the same person. (I hope I have that right!). We are now trying to determine who that man may be, and further matches from Derbyshire might just do it.
Cheers,
Tisy
-
I tested at 25 markers initially, then upgraded to 37.
I have no close matches, at either level, to anyone, anywhere!
My paternal ("Y") line is also from Derbyshire. The brick wall appears in the parish of Youlgreave in the late 17th/early 18th century, when there were at least two (possibly three) families of the same name in the area - and with one family paupers, and the other descended from the lords of the manor (of nearby Stanton), the chances are they weren't closely related, if at all. I had hoped that a match might at least give me a clue as to which family I originate from, but no luck!
-
Anyone who mentions brick wall and Youlgreave in the same sentence grabs my attention. My husband's Ball family stop there in the 1740s though there are earlier Balls with the same christian names. DNA testing is something I have thought of, but it might have to be a bit cheaper and a bit more certain. And we have a Sheldon as mother of a Ball wife. I think DNA testing is very interesting and I'm sure one day it will go hand in hand with other methods, claytonbradley
-
I can't disagree that it has to get much cheaper before it becomes a realistic option in many cases. I did it for interest in learning about the technology as much as anything.
I have a number of lines in and around Youlgreave, but haven't come across any Ball connections I'm afraid.
-
Isn't the problem that it only works with the male line?
My brick wall is my paternal g.grandfather, but as his two sons didn't have any children only his daughter did, the next males are my father and two of his siblings. How would DNA testing one of their sons help? Might be a problem there though, only two left and one of the lives in Canada somewhere and one other is incarcerated in USA ::).
-
Hi all,
Msallen - you didn't mention whether you had a predicted haplogroup with your 37 marker test, and the surname of the male line tested. Our halopgroup is R1b (the most common in western Europe and Britain); the surname revealed by the testing is Wood/Woods.
LizzieW - yes, Y-DNA testing only works with the male line, but ftDNA is now offering a "family test" which is for either sex, and reveals close matches to previously unknown cousins etc. The best thing to do is to join various surname projects and see what comes up in the way of matches in the various projects. The problem is that we only started using surnames in about the mid 1200's, so very distant matches could be to other surnames. This is why we did the 67 marker match, which narrowed it down to just one surname. You have to also take on board that unless the people you hope to find a match with actually test, you will not find matches. We have found that it is mainly Americans who are testing, hence our many matches to people who live in America who are descended from ancestors from the U.K. It would be good if the British would take this on board as well, as most of us who are looking are descended from the British and due to early migration have lost contact with our families in the U.K.
It seems to be acceptable to ask someone to have the test if you suspect this is your line, as long as you do it with sensitivity, and of course offer to pay for the test. They have the right of course to refuse.
Cheers,
Tisy
-
Tisy,
Are you sure you didnt mean MtA testing which is predominently for the female line?
For those thinking about this and in particular Clayton Bradley please remember if you are a male with a different surname to the person you are looking for then it is impossible to be found using YDnA testing. So in Clayton's case he could use the YDNA for Clayton and yes I am assuming his surname is Clayton and not Ball.
On the Ball connection I have BALL from South Normanton and these move to Clay Lane ( Now Clay Cross) if you have any connection there please contact me
Rob
-
It's all too complicated and at the end of the day it won't find my g.grandfather's birth date and his parents for me.
Lizzie
-
It's all too complicated and at the end of the day it won't find my g.grandfather's birth date and his parents for me.
Lizzie
This probably sums up quite neatly the views of many people simply because we know so little of the process and any benefits it could bring.
In addition to this the procedure was partially discredited in its earlier days by reports of some American celebrities having their data "re-interpreted" by various experts until they obviously got the answer they were looking for.
-
I did hear that you can do recombinant DNA for example maternal fathers such as mums, mums, mums, dad. How true it is I am not sure.
-
Coombs,
I am not sure how that works because MtA only passes down the female line. I personally think DNA within genealogy is a tool that at present is an expensive waste of time because without a paper trail it proves nothing. I personally believe it should only be used in genealogy where there is a chance of proving illigitimacy.
On that point what happens for a male who can show say 5 generations of having the same surname but then finds there is a child out of wedlock and you have the maternal name?
-
I think DNA testing is a waste of time myself if we only can use it for the paternal or maternal lines only.
-
It does look as though the only way that I shall ever confirm my descent and the identity of my paternal 3XGGF is by a Y chromsome DNA test, likewise, over 2/3 of the bearers of my surname are in North America, a quarter in the UK, and the rest, 80 individuals in the rest of the English speaking world, so as I have so far failed to cross the Atlantic by documentary methods it looks likely that DNA might be the only solution. Have had more success with Australia though, thanks to the transportation records.
-
I have to say that those pooh-poohing DNA genealogy testing here appear to be very short-sighted regarding the possibilities. Remember that the people who are getting DNA tests are also doing classical genealogical research. So they may well have details about your ncestors that you have not yet found.
Let's take an example: you are in England and stuck at your 3rd great gpa; you can't find his parents or siblings and are at the proverbial brickwall. You get a 37 marker DNA test done and find a very good match with an individual or two in the US or Canada. You contact this person and find that the eldest sibling in this family emigrated and took the family bible containing 2 or 3 generations back from your 3x ggrandfather with him.
If you never have your DNA tested and put into the worldwide mix, you stand no chance of turning up such a (admittedly Panglossian) circumstance. The more people who have their DNA tested, the better it is for all genealogists.
I have had 37 markers done (Y-DNA) and so far it has only led to some intriguing "possibles". I am sorely tempted to get the autosomal (family) DNA as done by 23andme and ftDNA, but it is more money ($289) than I want to commit (two kids still at university) until I see some positive results from others. Plus it is very new technology.
I hope some of you will reconsider your bias.
Nick
-
Hi all,
No, I didn't mean the mitachondrial testing when I referred to the "family test". I don't know too much about it except that it is something new being offered by Family Tree DNA - I will go online tonight and get the full description. Incidentally, Mitachondrial DNA testing can be done on both the male and female lines, because all of us inherit our mother's X-chromosome; males have the Y-chromsome from their father, and the X-chromosome from their mother. Females have one X-chromosome from their father (i.e. his female line) and one X-chromosome from their mother. Female mitachondrial DNA testing is done only on her mother's mother's (ad infinitum) line. This would also be her brothers' female line, so only one mitachondrial test is needed, and can be done on the male's sample, so no need for further samples to be given. This means, (as I understand it) that your father's female line DNA stops with you (the male).
Have a look at the ftDNA site for further clarification - there is some interesting reading. Also have a look at "Eupedia" which has heaps of info.
I agree that this sort of tool is more effective where there is illegitimacy (as in my case), but there is also the question of adoption, and there have been many success stories in this case.
I am not sure about the statement that Y-DNA testing is not effective if you are looking at a different surname. We have in our group people by the name of Rhodes and its variations, Brindley and other names who have tested positive to the main surname DNA (Wood/Woods); Surnames are a fairly new construct, and there is also the possibility (in addition to those listed above) where a child is not the child of their legal father. I am not for one moment suggesting that we all rush out to be tested to prove that our fathers were really our fathers, but just making the point that a piece of paper just does not guarantee anything necessarily.
Tisy
-
Hang on here. Mitochondrial DNA is non-chromosomal DNA that is found in the mitochondria and comes from the mother. It has nothing to do with the X chromosome. Both males and females get m-DNA from their mother.
-
I have to say that those pooh-poohing DNA genealogy testing here appear to be very short-sighted regarding the possibilities. Remember that the people who are getting DNA tests are also doing classical genealogical research. So they may well have details about your ncestors that you have not yet found.
Yes, good point, Nick. I suppose that if you're faced with a brick wall, any avenue that you haven't explored is something to try. However, I wouldn't want people to get too excited about it, because DNA testing is far better at proving who isn't related, than finding out who is, and the reason for this is because a large proportion of the native population (as opposed to those who are immigrants somewhere along the line) of the UK are inter-related on many levels already. If everyone on Roots Chat were to take a DNA test, chances are that about 30% would find matches, because most of us are inter-related.
-
Hi Erato,
I stand corrected - of course you are right about the mtDNA. This is good, as it helps us all understand a little better what is a very complicated subject.
Thanks to all for a very interesting discussion - long may it continue.
Cheers,
Tisy
-
Hi all,
This is the info from ftDNA on "Family Finder"
FAMILY FINDER - FOR CLOSE GENEALOGY
Family Finder
ORDER NOW $289.00 For males and females. The Family Finder Test helps you find family across all your lines, up to 6 generations back, by checking hundreds of thousands of points in your autosomal DNA, and comparing your results with others in the Family Finder database.
Tisy
-
Is the database large enough to be of any use ? http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/auto_dna.html
-
Hi Youngtug,
Many thanks for the link to the Uni of Utah stuff. Just spent a fascinating half-hour going through the various bits and am now much better informed. Had to play the audio stuff a couple of times to get it to play without breaking up, but managed to hear everything eventually. The autosomal stuff was really interesting; I was never quite sure if I had inherited anything from my g-grandparents, but this has cleared it up for me.
Tisy
-
Men inherit their mothers y-DNA but they dont pass it on.
-
Spot on Nick, your posting really sumarises my problem, perhaps not in the USA, but certainly in 18th century England.
Coombes, I think you mean a mother's X DNA, it women have a Y chromosome I was unaware of it.
-
This could be handy for proving relationships if born the wrong side of the blanket as in my grgrandads case.
marcie
-
I dont think women inherit their Y DNA off their father.
I have the same mt DNA as my mum who inherited it off her mum. The line starting with mum in therms of birthplace is Essex, Durham, London, Sussex then it remains in Sussex. My paternal line starting with dad is Essex, Essex, Suffolk and it then remains in Suffolk until at least as far back as the 1660s. As I am male I have my dads Y DNA. But I will not pass on my mt DNA.
-
I thought Coombes that women were XX chromosomes, men YX. Marcie, this is my problem, but it goes back to around 1776, and there is much paper work but none of it connects.
-
I thought Coombes that women were XX chromosomes, men YX. Marcie, this is my problem, but it goes back to around 1776, and there is much paper work but none of it connects.
Mine only goes back to about late 1800 early 1900's, does that mean that I have more of a chance of finding my connections then.?
marcie
-
OK. I can understand most of what's been said but, could somebody explain to me in words of one sylable ( ;) ) how I could find through DNA testing my grandfathers line?? He was illegitimate and took his mothers name, so we don't know his father at all. Would DNA testing help in this instance??
Barbara
-
Would DNA testing help in this instance??
Only if others from his line also entered their DNA records into the database.
-
Thanks Falkyrn :)
-
Would that be from my side of the family such as my mum or from his side such as a grandson or grgrgrandson etc.
Obviously my grandad is dead and he would have been the nearest to prove one way or the other but probably on the same lines as Falkryn stated in that posting.
marcie
-
Tephra,
In short No because Y dna needs to come from the male line so unless you knew who his father was then you couldnt do it. YOu could have MtA test done but this is not as accurate because this uses the female X chromosome which only passes through the female line
-
Other than exhumation I think there might sometimes be a way of getting the DNA from the dead. Many people keep souvenirs of relatives, a lock of hair etc. would I think be a possibility for DNA testing, but it would really be a lucky chance.
-
Redroger,
For a real chance of getting a DNA profile from hair you need the root.
Marcie,
Did your grandfather have a brother? If so does he have a son? If so then you could do it that way. So long as there is a proven line of descent through the male line with that surname then a test could be performed
Rob
-
The Y chromosome is only passed down father to son. To find your grandfathers DNA you would need a father to son line, so if it is your mothers father you would need her to have had a brother who can give his DNA, or his son. If there was no male issue of your grandfather,[ or no way of using any DNA from them if there was], then you have no way of finding his Y chromosone DNA.
-
Thank you Rob and John....... Looks like I'm stuck then. It was Dad's Dad....... so there's no chance!!
Ah well, back to the drawing board ;D
Barbara
-
The family owned the land upon which Edinburgh Zoo is now situated. Grandads brother died also some years ago and he and his wife did not have any sons only daughters, my second cousins. Have not spoken to them for some time.
marcie so do not know what their families consist of in the way of children these days and they would be about my age as well, in their 50's
marcie
-
As I said, it would really be a lucky chance to get DNA from this route.
-
Youngtug,
my uncle is also dead some 20/25 years now and there is a small poss that he was not my grandads son, though I would never say as much to other family members for fear of being linched.
marcie
Seems I have lucked out then.
-
Would it be possible to confirm a common genetic progenitor from the DNA of descendents of two brothers?
3 x great grandson of brother (a) and 4 x great grandson of brother (b) direct male lines.
The doubt is whether brother (b) is the 4 x great grandfather or is this line from another family.
Ceeoh
-
Yes. Direct male lines
-
Have any of you managed to find at least beyond reasonable doubt strong evidence as to the father of a baseborn child in your tree?
-
Tephra,
In short No because Y dna needs to come from the male line so unless you knew who his father was then you couldnt do it. YOu could have MtA test done but this is not as accurate because this uses the female X chromosome which only passes through the female line
No, X chromosomes are passed through both male and female lines. It is mitochondrial DNA that all [male and female] children inherit from their mother. This is because egg cells are large and contain mitochondria while sperm cells are small and do not. Therefore, all the mitochondria [which contain their own DNA] in the offspring come from the mother.
-
Erato,
You are correct and I need to read what I am posting before I hit post :) Through should have read from.
Rob
-
Hi,
No, not beyond reasonable doubt as to the actual father, but fairly certain as to the surname.
Our story is this; my g-grandfather, William Henry Marshall was born to Mary Marshall in 1857 at the Barnsley Union Workhouse. The family legend is that he was the son of a wealthy man who became remorseful about his illegitimate child after the death of his wife and asked his solicitors to search for him so he could make financial provision for him. He was told to "watch at the gates at 9 o'clock in the morning and he would see his father go by" and other snippets which leads us to believe that this man was someone important. Mary Marshall was a domestic servant. There is evidence that William Henry's fortunes improved somewhere between 1891 and 1901 - he went from being firstly a coalminer to glasspresser and suddenly in this period became the owner of a business - a newsagent and stationer. He sent my grandfather to grammar school. The family progressed rapidly after that and became fairly wealthy, but we never knew the name of his projenitor.
We decided to do the Y-DNA test and my brother's DNA was sampled. We have many close matches to people by the name of Wood or Woods, all of whom originated in the northern counties of England. The closest is to someone who ancestor came from Matlock in Derbyshire in the mid-1600's. It is a "genetic distance 4" match, which means he has 4 differences in the number of allelles on his markers, i.e. about a 7 generation back common ancestor. Unfortunately he has not been able to establish just who his ancestor's family is - John Wood left Derbyshire in the late 1600's (possibly a Quaker) and settled in New York State. It was probably his father (William) who was our common ancestor. I am now indexing all of the IGI extracted records for the name Wood and its variants across the counties of Cheshire, Yorkshire and Derbyshire in an effort to see if these families were linked in any way back in the 1500 and 1600's. Unfortunately because so few English people test, all we are getting is more American matches where they also don't know how they fit in to the U.K. families.
Tisy
-
The results of DNA testing can be vague. However, my only reason to have it done is to see how far back my DNA line goes and from which group of people I am descended. I presume I am R1b but I would like subdivided beyond that. Personally, I wouldn't expect to make any great genealogical inroad to the last dozen or so generations.
-
Tisy,
How does the DNA tell you that you are connected to the particular person you believe? Wood is such a common surname in England that you could be related to one of a thousand in the counties you are cross comparing.
I think that people in the UK dont test their DNA because we have ample access to the records and don't feel so strongly about spending money on what is yet an unproven aspect of genealogy such as DNA. If anything I believe DNA puts more obstacles in the way of research because you become focussed on that one thing similar to what you have
-
Hi Genresearch,
In reply to your first question, we have a genetic distance 4 match to this person, whose name is Wood. This means that there are slight differences in the number of alleles on four markers out of 67 - a very close match, and according to the geneticists we are definitely related - most likely a common ancestor about 7 generations ago. We both did the deep clade test as well, and this has revealed that we both share the same subclade R1b1b2a1b4c1, L20. We also have more distant matches to many other people by the name of Wood or Woods, mostly from the counties of Cheshire and Derbyshire. There are other people by the name of Wood or Woods on all of the surname DNA projects we belong to, who belong to completely different haplogroups, and this is probably because of NPE's or the fact that surnames only came into use fairly recently. If we had only had a match to one person by the name of Wood, we would not have been so certain because of course this person may have been descended from someone who was illegitimate. The point of all of this however, is not so much the name but the fact that this person at least has a paper trail - we have nothing, which brings me to your next comment.
If you do not have a paper trail - in our case the father was not named on the birth certificate; the Barnsley Union Workhouse archives have been lost; the members of the family who may have known the truth are now deceased. Where do you go? DNA was our only option, and I am not sorry we have used it as now we have something to go on. The fact that the father may have been a person by the name of Wood is significant, as it gives some credence to the family legend which I will not go into here for privacy reasons. I also dispute your comment about DNA being an unproven aspect of genealogy. You will need to join some of the forums dealing with genetic genealogy to see what I mean.
Cheers,
Tisy
-
Tisy - if you apply common maths, then to go back 7 generations (about 250 years), each of us alive today in the UK would have 128 ancestors in our direct lines. Bearing in mind that there are currently about 60 million people in the UK, compared to about 6 million in 1750, then it stands to reason that the majority of us will share an ancestor within 7 generations, because there just isn't enough people to go round.
You can see that quite easily from posts in this forum - yesterday I posted something about a friend with an ancestor with an unusual name, who was 5 generations back in her tree. Within 24 hours, I had a reply from a lady in New Zealand whose husband shared the same ancestor. This is in a forum with 121000 members, about half of which are active. Think about it.
-
I want to do a Coombs DNA project as I have some male cousins with the surname as I want to trace the family of George Coombs born about 1790, my 4xgreat grandfather.
-
250 years ago for 7 generations is an extreme over-estimate. A generation is considered to be 25 years to 30 years, usually the lower number. This figures out to 175-210 years for 7 generations. This would equate to the 7th generation ancestors of 25-30 year olds currently having children of their own having bee born in the early years of 1800. (Using a strictly linear interpretation.)
Check your own charts to show this; there will, of course, be outliers, but in general it works out.
Also see http://itotd.com/articles/226/most-recent-common-ancestors/
for some interesting discussion.
I have difficulty seeing what argument people seem to be trying to make against DNA testing. It is just another tool, and the more people who use it, the better it might be for all of us. At least the really bright people doing genetics think so.
Nick
-
Generation time in the [modern - 20th century] USA was considered to be 28.5 years when I studied demography; granted, that was some time ago.
I agree with nickgc, DNA can be a useful tool for settling some questions and the more testing that is done, the more useful it will become.
-
I have difficulty seeing what argument people seem to be trying to make against DNA testing. It is just another tool, and the more people who use it, the better it might be for all of us. At least the really bright people doing genetics think so.
Nick
I'm not making an argument for or against DNA testing, but people need to see it for what it is. As I've said several times in the past, DNA testing is excellent for proving who isn't your ancestor, but not so good at proving who definitely is, because most of us share common ancestors. (And I take your point about the time period for a generation - not that it makes much difference to the argument).
-
Tisy,
R1b1b2a1b4c1 is in fact found in all of England France and Italy. That particular group is also believed to have first come to Britain 1800 years before present and therefore sometime during the middle of the Roman Period. It is believed to have started out as an Alpine Celtic ethnic group. I have seen many people with this haplogroup over the last 12 months. Now what about the mutations within it? This is why I think DNA is not a tool that should be used in Genealogy because it really doesn't help. This was conceded to me by an American who was at the WDYTYA show with the DNA company he works for.
A friend of mine recently did an MtA test to prove she was of Romany descent but alas her DNA came back as typical UK MtA as well and no chance of her coming off Romany stock on the maternal line. In that respect I think it is a good idea but not when trying to connect ancestors 7 generations before
ROb
P.S. Isnt it interesting the people suggesting DNA should be used in the main are Americans and those who seem to be against it are British
-
If I was an American, and I had no idea about my ethnic origins, I might well be tempted to try DNA testing to try to establish which part of the world my forefathers came from. However, using DNA to pinpoint families of the same name would be pretty fruitless, not only because of shared ancestors, but due to the fact that those with the same surnames did not originate from the same places. For instance, take my grandfather's surname - HOLE - this is a fairly uncommon name, which originates from families who lived in a hollow, and in the UK in the 1800's, most people with that surname lived either in Yorkshire/Lancashire or Somerset, where there are some famous holes or hollows. I've never seen any suggestion that the two 'tribes' were connected in any way, other than the derivation of the name. The name WOOD or WOODS (incidentally my own g.g. grandmother was a WOOD) comes from people who lived in or near a forest or wood, and it's important to realise that 80% of England was forested, before Henry VIII chopped down all the timber to build his fleet of warships. So you can't even narrow the WOOD surname down to a particular area or areas.
-
Hi,
There is also research now which is looking at the possibility of L20 coming from the Bituriges Cubi celts of the old Kingdom of Berry, having migrated into central Germany in about 400BC and then being carried over to the British Isles with the Saxon invasion - controversial at the moment no doubt. See David Faux's papers on line. Steve Gilbert is the researcher looking at L20 in particular. If you would like to have the link to his site let me know.
I am not going to try to convince you genresearch, as you have obviously made up your mind; but I think you have to concede that genetic genealogy is here to stay and is becoming part of mainstream research. You can call it what you like, but it is helping people to break down their brick walls and is proving a useful tool for those of us who simply do not have a paper trail. The new autosomal test may prove to be of more help than the Y-DNA test - time will tell.
I have no idea what you mean when you say that Americans are for DNA and British are not - this is a complete generalisation and not at all valid. There are many British people who test because of illegitimacy or adoption; Americans test in the hope of finding links with their origins, not because of some faddish idea that it is "the thing to do". I am British, and I have tested.
Cheers,
Tisy
-
Tisy,
Yes it was a generalisation and one that came about from my time spent on genetics forums reading and learning. You are right my mind is made up about the subject but that wouldn't stop me adding my profile to the Burns project I just don't see the point.
I think arguing that L20 came to the UK after the date of 200AD is a valid one because it was around that time the Saxons started to cross the water into England but only started to invade in the 4th century. The fact that some of the German auxillaries also came over during the second and third centuries would also fall into this debate. If you have the link to Faux's paper I would be interested.
Yes DNA is here to stay and I just hope that it doesn't lead to even wilder claims that we are related to the queen etc than we get now.
Rob
-
Hi Rob,
I will have to dig about for David Faux's link - will let you have it tonight. Your remark about being related to the Queen brought a smile to my face; there is a wonderful family site which actually lists Jesus Christ as an ancestor; being in the same haplogroup as Charles Darwin just didn't measure up to this! LOL!
Your contention about the 128 ancestors floored me a bit as well; we are dealing with Y-DNA here (this is how we tested), so I take that to mean that if we have a common direct male line ancestor seven generations back - that's what it means. The female line doesn't come into it at all. Neither to all the other grandparents. I will however go back to ftDNA and check this with them.
Cheers,
Tisy
-
I have only 5 generations back to 1776 from my birth in 1940; average approx 35 years per generation. At this rate my 7 generations would go back to c1690.
-
Redroger,
Thanks for elucidating. I have wondered if some of your direct ancestors were fairly old when becoming fathers based on some posts of yours (I think I noticed one of your great grandfathers was born before my third great gpa - and I'm not young).
I presume though that the 5 generations you speak of are in a single line, and not an average across all the lines in your preceding 5 generations.
Starting with your children for ease of calculation (assuming you have children and they are of reproductive age), 5 generations back would be all their 32 3rd great grandparents from both your and your wife's side. The average generation length would be an average of all lines, not just an average of one discrete line. I.e. average reproductive age of you and wife for gen 1; avg repro age for your 4 parents for gen 2; avg repro age for you 8 grandparents for gen 3, etc.
Nick
-
HI all,
I think geneticists are using an average of 31 years per generation at the moment (at least I think that is what I saw on my last foray into ftDNA's website). This would make 217 years to our common 7 generation ancestor from 1963, i.e. 1756.
Cheers,
Tisy
-
Yes, my calculations were a little bit out, but that does not disprove the point - even in 1756, there would not be enough people in the UK to support each of us alive today having 128 full blood ancestors, even taking siblings into account. A large number of people in the UK have common ancestors. As I've said so often in the past, DNA isn't very good at telling who your ancestors were, but it is very efficient at telling you who they were not. Go back 10 generations, and you have 1024 full-blood ancestors to find.
-
Hi all,
Here is David Faux's web page link -
http://www.davidkfaux.org/
Cheers,
Carol
-
Sorry, not impressed. David had traced his ancestry back to 1819 in the Shetland Islands, and then suddenly magically, we are back to the Vikings in 800 AD ! ::) David is also quite fortunate to have one part of his ancestry spending a large amount of time in a place which was cut off from the rest of civilisation, and another part with an uncommon name with well-to-do links. I wouldn't say that he was representative of the average person who is researching their family tree.
And, if the 'forensic users world - wide database' is only 100,000 people, when the current world population is just under 7,000,000,000, then it appears that only 0.0014% of the population is actually on the DNA database, and I suspect that most of those that are are on the N. American continent. Now, I am neither a DNA expert, nor a mathematician, but I'm afraid that does not seem to give in the UK much of a chance of a good result, as far as I'm concerned.
-
Hi Nick,
Why not put it to David himself? His email address is on his site.
Cheers,
Tisy
-
Hi Nick,
Why not put it to David himself? His email address is on his site.
Cheers,
Tisy
Because 'David himself' is not pushing his website, or commenting here - you are :)
And David has not jumped to any of the conclusions that you have appeared to jump to.
I was merely pointing out the mathmatics and science of DNA testing, in the hope that the promise of DNA genealogy will not instill false hope in people, in a process which does not come cheap.
-
Nick, What I am certain of is this:2X GGF b1776 GGF b1798. Grandfather b1828, Father b1899, me b1940.
I did my best to bring down the age range, daughter b1966, son b1969, but back to form, grand-daughter b2007, to daughter, son, not yet married.First day of research in 1996 straight into IGI, still looking to get back beyond 2XGGF. Other lines are better though, on mother's side, 4XGGM b1803 approx, but this side has other problems, due to intermarrying, I have one 4XGGF who is also my 3XGGF. I think this makes me my own 4th cousin!
-
Your grandfather was 71 when your father was born ? Wow ! My dad was 50, and I thought that was old :o
-
Hi Nick,
I was not "pushing" David's site - I merely mentioned that he was researching U-152 and thought you might be interested - obviously not, as you has a five minute look and then did a hatchet job. He has written many interesting papers, and of course he may not be 100% right about everything, but this is what good science is about - looking at something, having an idea about what it means, and then setting out to prove or disprove your hypothesis.
In the meantime I have now had a reply from Terry Barton of "Worldfamilies" with regard to Y-DNA matches -
"Hi Carol. Yes - a match that is 63/67 or a genetic distance of 4 on 67
markers indicates shared ancestry. I haven't looked at the calculations
lately - and there are a number of parameters that folks adjust in the
calculation - which change the outcome a bit - but it seems reasonable that
7 or 8 generations is about the 50% probability for the number of
generations back to a most recent common ancestor (MRCA) in your situation.
However - it's very important that you realize that dna matching is not
precise in measuring generations. The probability for shared ancestry in
this case ranges from a very few generations to something around 20
generations. 7/8 generations is simply the point where as many folks will
be more than 8 generations to MRCA as they will be less than 7
Now - the bit about 128 ancestors is totally irrelevant. yDNA is very
specific - it is the y-chromosome - which is inherited from a man's father's
father's ... Father's paternal ancestry - that is being evaluated. yDNA is
a very specific line of inheritance.
But - and this may be what your match is trying to say - you don't know
where that MRCA is on either your line or your match's line by the number of
differences. You only know that at some point your two paternal lines
coincide into that MRCA. It's now a paper trail exercise to find who is
your MRCA."
I am of course doing the paper trail and have already indexed more than 2,500 events for Wood/Woods and variants for the three counties which we are interested in, and will continue to look for the elusive ancestor.
Cheers,
Tisy
-
Hi Nick,
I was not "pushing" David's site - I merely mentioned that he was researching U-152 and thought you might be interested - obviously not, as you has a five minute look and then did a hatchet job. He has written many interesting papers, and of course he may not be 100% right about everything, but this is what good science is about - looking at something, having an idea about what it means, and then setting out to prove or disprove your hypothesis.
No, that's not the case at all. I am not disputing the science of DNA - it undoubtedly works - I am just disputing the way it is being used here, and the rather shaky assumptions being made around it, because they haven't looked at the mathematics and population statistics.
In the meantime I have now had a reply from Terry Barton of "Worldfamilies" with regard to Y-DNA matches -
"Hi Carol. Yes - a match that is 63/67 or a genetic distance of 4 on 67
markers indicates shared ancestry. I haven't looked at the calculations
lately - and there are a number of parameters that folks adjust in the
calculation - which change the outcome a bit - but it seems reasonable that
7 or 8 generations is about the 50% probability for the number of
generations back to a most recent common ancestor (MRCA) in your situation.
However - it's very important that you realize that dna matching is not
precise in measuring generations. The probability for shared ancestry in
this case ranges from a very few generations to something around 20
generations. 7/8 generations is simply the point where as many folks will
be more than 8 generations to MRCA as they will be less than 7
Now - the bit about 128 ancestors is totally irrelevant. yDNA is very
specific - it is the y-chromosome - which is inherited from a man's father's
father's ... Father's paternal ancestry - that is being evaluated. yDNA is
a very specific line of inheritance.
But - and this may be what your match is trying to say - you don't know
where that MRCA is on either your line or your match's line by the number of
differences. You only know that at some point your two paternal lines
coincide into that MRCA. It's now a paper trail exercise to find who is
your MRCA."
I am of course doing the paper trail and have already indexed more than 2,500 events for Wood/Woods and variants for the three counties which we are interested in, and will continue to look for the elusive ancestor.
Cheers,
Tisy
Again, David was talking about the science, and not the mathematics. As you know, every time you go back one generation, you double the number of people at the bottom of the tree. A seven generation tree contains 128 people at the bottom of the tree. A 20 generation tree would contain 1,048,576 people at the base of the tree. The stumbling block is (and always will be) that as you go further back in time, the number of people in the world decreases, and the further you go back, the greater the likelihood of shared ancestors with shared DNA.
Now, given that there are about 62,000,000 people in the UK today, and each one of us had 128 ancestors at the base of their their trees 7 generations back, and 1,048,576 ancestors 20 generations back, then it doesn't take a genius to work out that the majority of people in the UK will have ancestors shared with lots of other people, because there simply weren't enough people to go around. And we have not even touched the subject of illegitimacy. Or the fact that people were mobile, and often travelled hundreds of miles, even when there was no mechanised transport.
David was very lucky to have families in his ancestry which were wealthy enough to leave wills, and a whole branch which lived for generations on an isolated island. Most of us are not that fortunate.
And, as I also said before, with only 100,000 people out of 7,000,000 in the world actually on the DNA database, that also substantially reduces the chances of ever finding a match.
Incidentally, I have 131 people in my own tree with the surname WOOD, most (but not all) related to my paternal g.g. grandmother. Maybe we're related ? Should I take a DNA test ? ;)
-
Your contention about the 128 ancestors floored me a bit as well; we are dealing with Y-DNA here (this is how we tested), so I take that to mean that if we have a common direct male line ancestor seven generations back - that's what it means. The female line doesn't come into it at all. Neither to all the other grandparents. I will however go back to ftDNA and check this with them.
The problem is that if your g.g.g.g.g. grandfather had seven sons, he would have passed his Y-DNA on to all 7 sons, and not just the one in your direct line. If each one of the other 6 sons also went on to produce 7 sons over several generations, that's a heck of a lot of people carrying the gene. How do you find the WOOD from the trees ? (Sorry for the pun - couldn't resist) :)
I have a very common surname, and my ancestry hits a wall at about 1805 in London. I could take a DNA test, but I suspect that it would only lead me back to France, where my surname is the most common name. DNA testing is great if you want to know the general area where your paternal line originated, but unless you have a name which is very unusual, or linked to a well-documented regal dynasty, it's unlikely to tell you much more.
-
Hi Nick,
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think your Wood ancestors are not in your direct male line, as they are connected to your paternal grandmother, so a Y-DNA test would not be appropriate to find a Wood connection. Y-DNA is only for finding your male line, as the Y-chromosome is passed down from father to son ad infinitum. This is why my brother had to provide the sample for our test. You would also not have inherited your X-chromosome from your paternal grandmother, as this is passed down from your mother (and mother's mother etc). There is the new autosomal test which can determine cousin relationships back five or six generations and this is for both sexes - I am not sure under what circumstances I would use this as I have not looked into it closely; it may be something to look at if you had groups of people of the same surname with similar DNA.
You might like to try the Y-DNA test to find your haplogroup, which in turn would give you some idea where your male line originated (if as you say it is unusual and possibly French). This could also give you information on your deep ancestry - for instance if you wanted to participate in the Genographic Project. Other than that, if you have a good paper trail, and you're not interested in the French connection, why bother?
And yes, you are right; 7x g-grandfather may have had seven sons and we could be descended from any one of them - unless we came up with an exact match (0 genetic distance match) it would be hard to pinpoint. Of course, the more people test, the more likely it is that we will get a closer match - we will be patient and see what happens.
Tisy
-
Yes Nick, It did worry me about my grandfather being 71; however having met definite relatives who descend from his older brother, and noting the similarity between them, and my son, and my brother's sons, I am as sure as I can be without DNA of the line of descent. My tree is difficult enough without what would be a further complication.
-
Hi Nick,
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think your Wood ancestors are not in your direct male line, as they are connected to your paternal grandmother, so a Y-DNA test would not be appropriate to find a Wood connection. Y-DNA is only for finding your male line......
I know that, Tisy - I was being a little sarcastic, hence the 'winking smiley' :)
-
Yes Nick, It did worry me about my grandfather being 71; however having met definite relatives who descend from his older brother, and noting the similarity between them, and my son, and my brother's sons, I am as sure as I can be without DNA of the line of descent. My tree is difficult enough without what would be a further complication.
It's certainly not impossible, Roger. I have a deep respect for my own father, who brought up a young family when he was in his 50's (working 2 jobs at the time). Let's hope your grandfather had some help ! :)
-
My grandmother killed herself, I think reading the inquest reports it was through undiagnosed post natal depression, so my grand father was left with a 6 year old daughter, and a 2 year old son at the age of 73, and no immediate family within 30 miles. The children were informally adopted (it was 1901) by two of my grandmother's sisters, Dad was brough up on a farm near Wisbech, and his older sister brought up in London, near Euston. They do seem however to have had regular contact.
-
I take it that she was a lot younger than himself probably in her 40's?
marcie
-
Hi all,
This is probably a good site for anyone contemplating DNA testing -
http://www.worldfamilies.net/
It provides heaps of good info, which will help anyone to make an informed decision. The University of Utah site which has already been listed in this conversation was also very good at explaining, in simple terms, how DNA works.
Tisy
-
She was in fact almost 42 Marcie.
-
Hi all,
This is probably a good site for anyone contemplating DNA testing -
http://www.worldfamilies.net/
It provides heaps of good info, which will help anyone to make an informed decision. The University of Utah site which has already been listed in this conversation was also very good at explaining, in simple terms, how DNA works.
Tisy
There is no doubting the effectveness of DNA research - however in genealogical terms it's usefulness is limited by the very meagre take up rate and it will remain so until, or if, it ever reaches that tipping point where the databases contain details from huge numbers of researchers numbered not in their hundreds or even thousands but possibly in the millions.
-
There is no doubting the effectveness of DNA research - however in genealogical terms it's usefulness is limited by the very meagre take up rate and it will remain so until, or if, it ever reaches that tipping point where the databases contain details from huge numbers of researchers numbered not in their hundreds or even thousands but possibly in the millions.
If we all wait until the databases reach that tipping point, they never will!
-
If we all wait until the databases reach that tipping point, they never will!
Quite possibly but I, for one, remain firmly in the sceptics camp and have not yet heard a truly compelling argument for the "pro" group.
As an example - my surname is relatively common in at least 3 countries and yet the research group in the link listed above for this surname and several variants numbered 30 participants.
-
DNA genealogy is in its absolute infancy. The number of people who are interested in it are a tiny minority of the population, but should include all the people on this board. Some right-wingers in the US (and perhaps other areas) say they don't answer census takers questions because it conflicts with their right to privacy. What if our ancestors felt this way?
Watson and Crick only defined the structure of DNA in 1953. The second sentence of their first paper was, "This structure has novel features which are of considerable biological interest." What an understatement that turned out to be! It took about another 10-12 years for the genetic code to be uncovered, and things have really taken off from there. All of this has happened within the lifetime of many of us on RC.
The draft of the human genome came out in 2000, after starting only about 10 years before, and was finalized in 2003. Using these discoveries in genealogy is really a trivial pursuit compared to the hugely important benefits that might well accrue from this research... but it should have an interest to many of us. If science shows anything it shows that our knowledge will increase with more research.
Not too long ago, people "felt" that primates - man, chimps, orangs, gorillas, etc. - were related because they looked alike (homology). Genetics has shown that this is a fact. There are some strong indications that humans are more closely related to chimpanzees and bonobos than chimps are to gorillas. All but the most stubborn people can accept this on the basis of research done on Human chromosome 2 which is a fusion of 2 separate chromosomes in other closely related primates.
I don't expect that DNA genealogy will provide much illumination of my own ancestry within my lifetime. But the only way it ever will is if as many people who are willing to do the testing add their information to the database.
Nick
-
DNA genealogy is in its absolute infancy. The number of people who are interested in it are a tiny minority of the population, but should include all the people on this board. Some right-wingers in the US (and perhaps other areas) say they don't answer census takers questions because it conflicts with their right to privacy.
[/quote
Our right wingers have another take on this, they propose abolishing the census!
Enough of that though, there is a strong possibility that I along with believed relatives in the USA may become involved in a one name DNA study in an attempt to prove that bearers of our surname on both sides of the atlantic are in fact related, documentary methods having failed. Is this a worthwhile line of approach?
-
Is this a worthwhile line of approach?
Redroger,
I'd say you have nothing to lose except a few dollars. If you only have a small number of participants, you have less to gain. A site I am familiar with has over 200 participants, and is quite well done as far as being able to make comparisons goes.
http://carter-cousins.org/
They have had some fairly interesting successes (described on website) and I have found 2 intriguing "possibles" to further my own line back beyond the early 1800s. Unfortunately, one of the two has not posted a family tree so I can't do additional comparisons.
It can be a lot of work, and I suggest that you find at least one person who is dedicated to keeping the research up-to-date.
Nick
-
Hi Redroger,
This is exactly what has been done in our case - the Wood Surname DNA project at the "Smallstuff" site and the Atwood Surname Project at the Worldfamilies Site - both still small but growing; the problem as ever is that most participants are American and most do not have a good paper trail back to the U.K. In the case of the Wood Surname Project, most of us who are testing L20 seem to come from the midland and northern counties of England, although there are some from East Anglia. In Steve Gilbert's research, those L20's from the midland and northern counties have been placed into the "Kingdom of Mercia Division A Cluster" and those from the South into the "Kingdom of Anglia" Cluster. There are of course names other than Wood included in all of these projects, where the DNA is very similar.
Tisy
-
Hi all,
This is an excerpt from Terry Barton's blog on Worldfamilies in regard to the "Family Finder" test -
"1. What type of test is this? The test constructs autosomal blocks using numerous SNPs in our autosomal DNA. The DNA you inherit from your parents is a mixed combination of the DNA they inherited from each of their parents. However, DNA that is close together on the chromosome tends to be inherited together. Sections of DNA that are passed on intact are called autosomal blocks. Your DNA consists of autosomal blocks inherited from many of your various ancestors. The more distant the ancestor, the smaller the blocks you tend to inherit from that ancestor, and the more possible it is that you will not inherit any DNA from that ancestor. By comparing the number and size of the autosomal blocks you inherit in common with other people, you can match from siblings and parents to 3rd and 4th cousins and, possibly to 5th cousins - or even further. I am told by FTDNA that there will be no yDNA or mtDNA SNPs reported - so (unlike 23andMe) you won't get any insights on your y or mt haplogroup. (note - I changed this last point after Raymond Wing and Steven Perkins both advised I had an error and FTDNA confirmed it)
As example - I am a 52.99% match to my Mother and a 47.67% match to my Father - which shows that the DNA evaluated by the test isn't a 50/50 blend of ancestry from my parents. (The explanation is the inclusion of the X-Chromosome) The 23andMe test confirmed my Deep Clade - which I already knew from Deep Clade testing at FTDNA."
It is worth a read, and the blog can be found at the link I posted before."
Tisy
-
Due to other committments over at least the next 2 years I have declined to administer our project, if it takes place. There are at least 2 different migrations of my surname bearers to North America, one before 1660 based on an old will, and the other more recent, I think likely 18th/19th century. There are around 2300 people worldwide who carry this surname, 53% in the USA, 25% UK, and 20% in Canada, the other 2% (approx 80 people) worldwide mainly Australia. Significantly since the surname is at its least uncommon in Dorset, the highest concentration of the name per 100,000 is in Newfoundland, and thopugh I have found one person in an early census whop states he was born in England, even in this case I have failed to make the transatlantic link.
-
I've only just seen this thread as I was away on holiday when it started but thought I would add a few comments. I've been running a Y- DNA project for the surnames Cruse, Cruwys, Crewes and associated variants for the last three years in association with my one-name study:
www.familytreedna.com/public/CruwysDNA
Y-DNA (Y-chromosome) testing has only been available in the last ten years but those of us who are running surname projects, including many of my colleagues from the Guild of One-Name Studies, are already beginning to see the benefits. Family Tree DNA has the largest Y-DNA database in the world with almost 200,000 Y- chromosome DNA results. Your chances of success really depend on the composition of your surname project. Some projects (such as my own) have reached critical mass and any new testee stands a very good chance of getting a match. Others are only just starting out. There are also many surname projects which are dominated by Americans. If this is the case it's always worth e-mailing the project administrator to see if the project will sponsor a test for a UK participant. Some US-led projects (eg, PHILLIPS) have a standing offer to provide free tests for UK participants if a pedigree is provided. As a result the Phillips project now has a relatively large number of UK testees;
http://www.phillipsdnaproject.com
DNA testing is used as a complementary tool to traditional documentary research. However hard you try, you will always get stuck sooner or later on one or other of your lines. A DNA match will confirm that two lines are related regardless of whether or not there is a paper trail. In my own one-name study I've sometimes been surprised at the lines which do match. The ones I was expecting to be related often aren't!
There are also many geographical projects for the British Isles such as my own Devon DNA Project:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Devon
You can see a full list here:
http://cruwys.blogspot.com/2009/08/dna-projects-for-british-isles.html
If you test through a project you benefit from the discounted project pricing (though the discount only applies to Y-DNA tests). The best time to order a test is usually in December when the companies usually hold sales. Alternatively you can come along to the DNA Workshop at Who do you think you are? Live at Olympia, London, in February 2011, where the tests are offered at a special show price.
The ISOGG website is a good sources of advice for DNA testing:
http://www.isogg.org
I did a brief article for the Berkshire Family History Society which explains how the Y-DNA and mtDNA tests work:
www.irishtype3dna.org/DebbieKennett.php
The new generation of autosomal DNA tests (Family Finder from FTDNA and Relative Finder from 23andMe) enable you to find relatives from all branches of your family tree. They don't tell you which ancestor you share in common so both parties who have a match need to research all their ancestral lines as far back as possible. These tests are very new and it will be a few more years before they reach critical mass for Brits. (Americans currently have a much better chance of finding a meaningful match.) At present they are best used to prove or disprove a hypothesis (ie, do two people share the same great-great-grandparent?). There are some useful pages on the ISOGG Wiki explaining how these tests work with screenshots from Family Finder and Relative Finder. This is a good page to start on:
http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA
The difference between documentary research and DNA research is that the documents will always be there for you to research (barring major catastrophes such as bombs and fires) whereas Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA lines can die out and if you don't get someone tested while you still have the chance the opportunity will be gone forever.
I hope this helps.
Debbie Kennett
-
Verty helpful thanks Debbie.
-
Hi Debbie,
Thanks - just the sort of input we need. I am just looking at starting an L20 Project for the midland and northern counties of England - possibly called the "West Mercia L20 Project". It will not be confined to any surname in particular, but to those testing L20 positive (R1b1b2a1b4c1), and whose origins are in these counties.
I have no idea where to begin, and would very much appreciate any help you could give.
Cheers,
Tisy
-
Tisy
I don't think it would be a good idea to refine a haplgroup project to a specific region. Not enough people have been tested as yet and you need to keep the scope as wide as possible. It's highly unlikely that L20 is confined to one specific region of the country. Are you already in the U152 project?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx
Tibor Fehar has recently taken over the categorisation of the project members and they are now grouped according to SNP results. Why don't you have a word with Tibor? He lives in Hungary but is fluent in English.
Debbie
-
I wonder if a DNA test would help me. Here is the story:
I was recently contacted by a gentleman who believes that his mother was an illegitimate daughter of a male relative of my line.
His supposed grandfather was the son of my great grandfather's brother, which would make him related to me via my grandmother (his cousin).
Would a DNA test, by both of us, show a common link, bearing in mind that I am female, descending through my father and grandmother to great grandfather, brother of contact's great grandfather. He is descended from him through his grandfather and mother. I hope this is making sense.
Therefore in both our families we are descended through a mixture of male and female family members.
All I need to know is if we share a common denominator. Is this possible with one of the DNA testing methods?
Thank you,
PippaK
-
Hi Debbie,
We are already on David Faux's U-152 project, as well as Steve Gilbert's L20 research project. There seems to be a cluster of L20's in these northern counties, and those of us who originate there thought it would be a good idea to see how many of us were connected and how; the names that have come up so far are Wood, Woods, Johnson and Marshall. Our name (Marshall) is as a result of illegitimacy 3 generations back.
I will contact Tibor as well - thanks for that. I think he can be contacted through ftDNA?
Cheers,
Carol
-
PippaK, As I understand it, to indicate a link you would need a known male relative of yours in the direct male line of descent to prove a Y chromosome connection.
-
Hi Tisy
I can't find any website for Steve Gilbert's L20 research project. I presume this is a private project rather than one that is hosted on the FTDNA website. If there are enough L20s then it might be worthwhile setting up a separate L20 project. I would imagine that not enough people have yet taken the deep clade test to make it worthwhile. Have you all tested at 67 markers as that is the best way to determine the genetic distance for more ancient matches? Tibor is one of the co-admins of the U-152 project and you'll find his e-mail address on their website.
Debbie
-
Hi Pippa
The new autosomal DNA tests (Family Finder from Family Tree DNA and Relative Finder from 23andME) would give you the answer you require. I'm struggling to get my head round your relationships but if you're no more than third cousins then you would have matching shared segments of autosomal DNA. Once you get out as far as fourth cousins then there is only a 50% possibility that the match will be detected. (In other words, a positive result would confirm the relationship but a negative result would not necessarily prove that you are not related.)
On average third cousins share 0.78% of their DNA and fourth cousins share 0.20% but the percentages can vary because of the random way in which autosomal DNA is inherited.
FTDNA is probably the best company to test with as they have a database full of genealogists so as a bonus you will probably get matches with other genetic cousins. 23andMe focus mostly on health tests and the matches often don't respond. In case it's of any help here is my write-up of the Family Finder test:
http://cruwys.blogspot.com/2010/04/new-family-finder-test-from-ftdna.html
I've also tested at 23andMe.
Debbie
-
Hi Debbie,
If you would like a link to Steve Gilbert's site, contact me privately.
In regard to the autosomal test - anything you have to offer in the way of advice would be appreciated. I have joined ISOGG, and through them the "DNA-Newbie" group on Yahoo; they are discussing the autosomal stuff at the moment, but I am really struggling to understand it.
Our closest Y-DNA match is a genetic distance 4 match which originated in Derbyshire - my ancestor was born in Barnsley, Yorkshire, so it looks very likely that we are related somewhere along the line. However, I have been advised that this could be anything from 7 - 20 generations back, so would probably not be any good for the autosomal test.
Tisy
-
Thank you for your reply Debbie.
I know that the relationship I posted is confusing, but you are right - we are 3rd cousins. So it looks like we could establish once and for all if we are really related.
PippaKit
-
<snip>
Y-DNA (Y-chromosome) testing has only been available in the last ten years but those of us who are running surname projects, including many of my colleagues from the Guild of One-Name Studies, are already beginning to see the benefits. Family Tree DNA has the largest Y-DNA database in the world with almost 200,000 Y- chromosome DNA results. Your chances of success really depend on the composition of your surname project. Some projects (such as my own) have reached critical mass and any new testee stands a very good chance of getting a match. Others are only just starting out. There are also many surname projects which are dominated by Americans. If this is the case it's always worth e-mailing the project administrator to see if the project will sponsor a test for a UK participant. Some US-led projects (eg, PHILLIPS) have a standing offer to provide free tests for UK participants if a pedigree is provided. As a result the Phillips project now has a relatively large number of UK testees;
<snip>
(my emphasis)
This is what happened in my case, in that I was sponsered by someone in Canada.
-
This thread has been very helpful.
I know someone who was adopted not long after birth in the UK and has a name for his father which his birth mother gave him, but no other info (he was an American serviceman). He was adopted at a time that getting the paperwork from his adoption is very difficult - it may even have been chucked away (how kind!). And of course, it's not guaranteed that there'll be any info about his father on the paperwork.
Rather than use DNA to track down his father, he's is hoping that the DNA could at least give him an idea of where his extended family were from and maybe find distant cousins, even just a sense of "who am I?", which I'm sure anyone who's obsessed with doing their family trees can appreciate! As a bloke, he's quite lucky presumably and can do a Y-chromosome test to find this out. And given that his father was American, that might help too given the popularity with DNA testing in the US.
The only thing is, there's no paper as such (unless he can find those adoption records) to prove his father's surname. Would that present a problem with him doing the DNA genealogy?
-
Helvissa,
This is exactly the sort of scenario for which DNA testing is so useful. So much depends on the databases and whether or not the right people have tested. A match will not necessarily prove the surname, as people can have matches at 37 and even 67 markers with a number of different surnames, but it should give him some useful clues. There is of course no guarantee of a match but most people have low-resolution matches at 12- and 25-markers which would give him some sense of identity. The haplogroup designation would also help, as some haplogroups are associated with particular geographical regions.
There is a very large project at Family Tree DNA for adoptees:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/adopted/default.aspx
Your friend would really need a 67-marker test.
There is a well publicised story of a man by the name Dick Hill in America who discovered the identity of his real father through DNA testing. You can read his story here:
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2009/06/rockford_man_uses_dna_testing.html
Dick was inspired by his success to set up his own website to advise adoptees on the subject of DNA testing:
http://www.dna-testing-adviser.com/index.html
-
that's really interesting - thank you!
There's a project on the site you recommended for variations of the surname he has for his father, so I suppose that might be worth looking into. Presumably you can be in a couple of groups?
The links are great - I shall get him to come and have a read here.
Thanks!
-
Helvissa
He can join as many projects as he likes. He could even be a number of different surname projects at the same time. There are also lots of haplogroup projects. He's best off ordering a test through the adoptees project. There is usually a sale in December so if he wanted to go ahead that might be the best time to order a test.
-
Great advice, thanks!
-
For those of you who have been following this thread I thought you might like to know that Family Tree DNA currently have a special offer for the Family Finder test when ordered in combination either with a basic mtDNA or Y-DNA test. I've put details on my blog with the equivalent sterling prices:
http://cruwys.blogspot.com/2010/10/family-finder-offer-from-family-tree.html
Debbie Kennett
-
Thanks for this - my friend's been reading this thread and he wants to go for a Y-DNA test, but I think he's going for the 37-marker test.
A question: if someone is a female adoptee, is it worth them doing the test? I assume they could only do the mitochondrial test? There's no way necessarily of doing the Y-test or find their father, other than doing a Family Finder test? (but maybe for 37-markers?).
-
A female adoptee can take both the Family Finder test and the mitochondrial DNA test. It's more difficult finding matches with the mtDNA test. If you have a common haplogroup such as haplogroup H people can often have literally thousands of matches. Upgrading to the HRV1+HVR2 can help to refine the matches. The gold standard is the full sequence mtDNA test which refines matches within a genealogical timeframe but this is still fairly new, and is of course much more expensive.
-
Sorry I forgot to say that your friend's best bet initially is probably to go for the 37-marker Y-DNA test. If he goes with the current offer he would have to order the upgrade from 12 markers to 37 markers. There is usually a sale on the Y-DNA tests in November or December.
-
Yes, he's going to look out for those (well... I'll look out for them and let him know!).
Thanks! :)
-
American namebearers of my surname have suggested a 65 marker test. Does this confer any real advantage other than to the profitability of the company concerned?
-
A 37-marker test should usually suffice for matches with people with the same surname.
A 67-marker test can sometimes be useful, especially if you want to eliminate matches with other surnames or you are interested in deep ancestry. If you have a particularly common haplotype then you can sometimes have quite a few matches with different surnames at 37 markers. You can always upgrade to 67 markers at a later date if necessary.
Debbie
-
I think I'll be going back to basics with my question below. It may be that it's been answered above somewhere, in which case I apologise, but I've tried to read the thread and got bogged down in other peoples' names etc!
Anyway - I'm female, my father is dead and my brother would not agree to testing. So that would rule out y-DNA testing.
I can trace my maternal line back confidently some 8 generations (excluding me) in the Midlands- back to a Nottinghamshire lass born in the 1760s. This number of generations is more than is mentioned in some of the testing companies' promo literature.
I know that I have a tissue type which is common in Lapland, but I also have olive skin and a family history (on my father's side) of illness common along the silk route! So I would love to know where my distant ancestors came from (ie before Nottinghamshire, haha!) - but I think that was almost certainly handed down in my father's line so I don't suppose I can go anywhere with that.
Now, bearing in mind those comments, if I were to get DNA testing, "what's in it for me"? What extra information would it give me, beyond what I've mentioned above?
-
Hi, Annie,
I noticed that no one has tried to answer your question, so I will give it a go. I am an American and I manage several DNA projects.
Although you cannot take a Y-DNA test because you do not have a Y chromosome, you can take an MT-DNA test, which is a test of your mitochondrial DNA. This is DNA you inherited from your mother and it traces your direct maternal line. This test will tell you about your deep maternal roots pre-Nottinghamshire.
You can also take an AT-DNA test which is a test of your autosomal DNA. One of the reasons people take AT-DNA tests is to discover how their DNA compares to populations from around the world. The AT-DNA test offered by Family Tree DNA shows the amount of ancestry you share with four different major population groups from around the world.
As Debbie Kennett mentioned in an earlier message, Family Tree DNA is currently offering a sale on a combination MT-DNA and AT-DNA test. Please note that Family Tree DNA calls their autosomal test the Family Finder test. Here is a link to their website where you can read more about it: http://www.familytreedna.com/Default.aspx?c=1
Sincerely,
Nancy Kiser
-
Hi Annie
Further to Nancy's message I thought I would just explain a little further about mitochondrial DNA tests. An mtDNA test won't help you with your genealogy research as you are most unlikely to match anyone who has researched their maternal line further back than you. An mtDNA test will however tell you about your deep ancestry but only of course on your direct maternal line (your mother, your mother's mother, your mother's mother's mother) and so on. You would be given a haplogroup designation with an mtDNA test. The haplogroups roughly correspond with The Seven Daughters of Eve from the Bryan Sykes book:
http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Seven_Daughters_of_Eve
The science has advanced since the publication of the book and there are now many more "daughters". You can get an idea of the range of haplogroups and their distribution from this Eupedia page:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#mtDNA
I am a haplogroup U4 which is very rare for the UK. The haplogroup is thought to have originated in Finland or Russia so it is something of a mystery as to how my U4 ancestor ended up in the Wiltshire countryside!
The Family Finder test only tells you about your genetic make up in recent times back for five generations or so, and gives you matches with your recent genetic cousins. There isn't a test that will tell you about your distant ancestors on all your different lines. In the long run scientists might be able to discover which genes dictate skin colour but these associations are often very complex and there is still a long way to go.
Debbie
-
Hi,
Thought this was an interesting link -
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20101027005596/en/Genetic-Trick-Treat-Salem-Witch-Trials-Figures
Cheers,
C arol
-
At the very least a strange coincidence.
-
So as a female, I've not a cat in hell's chance of finding whereabouts in the world my paternal g.grandfather originated. Oh well, that's another avenue closed for me.
Lizzie
-
Unless Lizzie you have a coperative male relative in the direct line from your paterna lGGF. As I understand it, a sample of his DNA would work.
-
I have some male cousins, but I'm not in touch with them, in any case it was their mother who was an ancestor of my g.grandfather, in fact she was my dad's twin sister.
Lizzie
-
Lizzie
How far back can you trace your great-grandfather's tree? Can you trace the line back a few more generations and then research forwards on a different branch of the tree until you find a male relative?
Debbie
-
Hi Lizzie,
Do you have a subscription to Ancestry? I have found sometimes that if you are looking for another branch of the family, the public member trees can be useful. If youdon't have a sub, send me a private message with some info and I will have a look for you.
Cheers,
Tisy
-
I would certainly be interested in testing my DNA, for one thing there is a possibility of Indian in my line but cannot access that information but it is on my mothers side. There is also some questions that I think DNA testing may help me.
My concern is how do I find a laboratory. I have read about this being of concern.
Robert..
-
So as a female, I've not a cat in hell's chance of finding whereabouts in the world my paternal g.grandfather originated. Oh well, that's another avenue closed for me.
Would the new "Family Finder" test be of any use to you? www.familytreedna.com/Default.aspx
I haven't got my head round this test yet. Maybe someone else could give an explanation?
-
So as a female, I've not a cat in hell's chance of finding whereabouts in the world my paternal g.grandfather originated. Oh well, that's another avenue closed for me.
Would the new "Family Finder" test be of any use to you? www.familytreedna.com/Default.aspx
I haven't got my head round this test yet. Maybe someone else could give an explanation?
I am living in the UK and that one is in the USA. I would like a laboratory in the UK.
-
Lizzie,
The Family Finder test looks at your autosomal DNA as opposed to Y-DNA or MT-DNA. Here is a link to a page on our Phillips DNA website that tries to explain autosomal DNA:
http://www.phillipsdnaproject.com/faq-sections/27-dna-questions-faqs/316-atdna-in-depth
Robert,
I don't believe there are any labs in the UK that are offering autosomal DNA tests to the general public, but there are several that offer the Y-DNA and MT-DNA tests. One of them is Oxford Ancestors at this link:
http://www.oxfordancestors.com/
However, I feel duty bound to point out that it costs 180 pounds for a 15 marker Y-DNA test at Oxford Ancestors, whereas a 37 marker Y-DNA test at Family Tree DNA (an American company) only costs 95 pounds.
Perhaps Debbie Kennett, who is a Brit, can give you some more insights.
Sincerely,
Nancy Kiser
Colorado, USA
-
Thanks for that link, NJK. I think I understand it now.
-
There are lots of pages on the ISOGG Wiki on autosomal DNA starting with this page:
http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA
23andMe and Family Tree DNA are the only two companies which offer the autosomal DNA tests at present. FTDNA do have an affiliate in the UK, DNA Worldwide, but it is much more expensive to order the tests from them and the kits still have to go to America to be processed anyway:
http://www.dna-worldwide.com
FTDNA do come over to England once a year for the Who do you think you are? Live show at Olympia in London.
Both 23andMe and Family Tree DNA provide an admixture analysis with their respective Relative Finder and Family Finder tests. This would give you an ethnic breakdown and if there were any Indian ancestry in recent generations it should be detected. Other companies use autosomal X-STRs for admixture analysis but they only use 13 markers and the results are very unreliable.
-
My concerned after doing much reading on this is is finding a reputable laboratory and not a broker. The Oxford site does not look like a laboratory to me.
Most laboratories will offer services on their web pages other than genealogy. I think that a laboratory in Scotland was mentioned on Tracing your roots (BBC)' sometime ago. I might ask for The Royal College of Pathologists for a list of their members that do DNA Genealogy. That way I would feel more comfortable. Put it this way I would sooner pay £200 than £100 to get good results.
Robert...
-
Robert,
Oxford Ancestors certainly is a laboratory. It was founded by Bryan Sykes who a professor of Human Genetics at Oxford U, and some of his colleagues. He has done much of the groundbreaking research on British Isles genetic genealogy. Check out his publications list.
See also this link: http://www.duerinck.com/dnalabs.html
Most of the testing done in the US is done at University of Arizona Research Labs and one other site. I think that you are limiting your options by insisting on 1) a British lab, and 2) not using a so-called middleman like Family Tree DNA. The middlemen often give you a lot more detailed deciphering of your results than the specific testing lab could afford to do.
Nick
-
Hi Robert,
Here is another link you may like to read before deciding -
http://www.dna-testing-adviser.com/index.html
Cheers,
Carol
-
Robert
The only laboratories that do genetic genealogy tests are:
- Family Tree DNA, who do some testing at their Genomics Centre in Houston and some in their labs at the University of Arizona
- Sorenson Genomics, who do the tests for DNA Heritage and Ancestry
- Oxford Ancestors, who have their own lab in Oxford
- Ethnoancestry, based in Scotland, who have their testing done at the University of London and some testing done at Marligen
I suspect the Scottish lab you mention was Ethnoancestry. There was also another British company called Family Genetics based in Manchester who went into liquidation earlier this year. All the labs mentioned above are reputable. Unfortunately the two British companies offer a limited range of tests, have very high prices and no facilities for project management. Family Tree DNA are the market leaders. I use them for all my projects and have been very happy with their services. I have not had any problems sending kits to America, and have no qualms about using an American testing company.
-
Thank you everyone for your replies and advice. However I am becoming more skeptical the more I look at these pages.
The three I have found in the UK seem to be hidden behind the internet. I am unable to find any listings for them in the BT Phonebook. Street addresses are another thing, only one, DNA Heritage, gives a street address. Looking at Google Street View, this is an ordinary residential house in Preston Rd., Weymouth no signs outside.
With all the fees and the importance of these studies you would think they would have at least a reception and better offer some face to face contact before someone spends upwards of £200.
For me I need to validate someone whoever it might be that offers goods and services over the Internet.
Robert..
-
Hi Robert,
I totally agree with Devon - we have tested with ftDNA as well - no problems whatsoever, and free access to worldwide databases, including the Genographic Project for only $15. We are going to do the Family Finder plus Autosomal with them now at a knockdown price of $299.
Cheers,
Tisy
-
Robert
DNA Heritage are basically a one-man band. They are re-sellers and have their testing done at Sorenson Genomics in Utah.
If you would like face-to-face contact you should come along to "Who do you think you are? Live" at Olympia in London at the end of February. Details should be going up on the website soon:
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouarelive.co.uk/
Family Tree DNA sponsor the DNA workshop there. You would be able to meet some of the staff. Some of the scientists usually come over to give talks too. For the last two years Dr Michael Hammer who heads up the FTDNA lab at the University of Arizona spoke at WDYTYA, and he is always a very entertaining speaker.
Chris Pomery, who is a fellow member of the Guild of One-Name Studies, will probably also be speaking at WDYTYA. He is now FTDNA's rep in England:
http://www.dnaandfamilyhistory.com/
Debbie
-
Probable American relatives of mine are using ftDNA, but I have some considerable scepticism for the reasons that you state Robert,like you, I like to see the location of the service provider before I part with quite a large sum of money.Looks as though Olympia might be worth a visit next year though.
-
If it helps you can see some photos of Family Tree DNA's Genomics Research Center in Houston, Texas, and all the fancy sequencing equipment, on their Facebook page here:
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=42578&id=129928947059495
If you do go to WDYTYA at Olympia do come along and say hello. I shall be helping on the ISOGG stand (International Society of Genetic Genealogy). There are usually special show prices for DNA kits bought at WDYTYA.
Unfortunately none of the British companies ever come to WDYTYA, though Bryan Sykes from Oxford Ancestors visited last year and sat in on all the DNA workshop talks. He spoke afterwards with Bennett Greenspan, the President of FTDNA, and Dr Michael Hammer. DNA Worldwide were at WDYTYA but they were re-selling FTDNA kits but at a higher price. Family Genetics were at WDYTYA two years ago but they're the Manchester-based company that went bust.
Debbie
-
DNA Diagnostics Centre (DDC) based in London, UK and Ohio, USA will have a stand at the WDYTYA exhibition and will be show casing their maternal, paternal lineage services and the AncestrybyDNA - this will discover your estimated percentage of ancestry from four different population groups:
European, Indigenous American, Sub-Saharan African, and East Asian. .
The US site is www.AncestrybyDNA.com and there will be a UK site soon to be launched.
If you have any questions you can contact the US office for ancestry services on;
1-800-514-5208 or via email
ancestry[at]ancestrybydna.com
or the UK office on:
0845 408 2084 or via email
uk_ddc[at]dnacenter.com
Moderator Comment: e-mail edited, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please replace [at] with @
-
Hi
again I thank you all for the information, I have decided to defer DNA screening for the time being. The WDYTYA exhibition does sound a very good place to get this information. At the moment all advice is to not waist money.
Thanks,
Robert...
-
Robert, On the subject of not wasting money, there is 2 for the price of one (almost!) offer in Family History Monthly for WDYTYA 2011. Not sure of the terms yet, but looks worth investigating.Might be available to other FH Magazines also.
-
I believe some of you were waiting for the DNA sales. I thought therefore that you might like to know that both Family Tree DNA and 23andMe have sales on until Christmas. The 23andMe test is more of a health test, but it is very interesting. There is a Relative Finder component but their database consists predominantly of Americans and even if you have a match it will not be much help as they won't know where in the UK their lines originate. Note that 23andMe charge a hefty fee for shipping via Fedex. If you are interested in ordering a Y-DNA test from Family Tree DNA make sure you order through a surname project, as you will get an additional saving in addition to the quoted sale price. Make sure you check the surname project pages as some of the American-led projects will offer free tests to British men! If there's no surname project then there is usually a geographical project. See this page in the ISOGG Wiki:
http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Geographical_DNA_project
If there is no surname project the test will be of less value to you unless you're prepared to wait until other people with your surname join the database or someone sets up a project for your surname (unless of course you want to take up the challenge yourself).
Family Tree DNA's Family Finder test is not available as a stand-alone product in the sale, though it is on offer at a special sale price to those who are already in the company's database.
The company websites can be found here:
http://www.familytreedna.com
http://www.23andme.com
Debbie
-
Thanks for the tip about free tests for British men Debbie.
-
Thanks for the heads up Debbie. $119 via FTDNA with a Surname study is much preferable to the normal $169. There was a slight glitch with my previous (SMGF) test so I think I'll have the 37 marker Y test done again.
Nick
-
Hi,
Can anyone tell me what the nomenclature is for the following subclades of the R1b Haplogroup:-
R1b-North/South 1 and
R1b-North/South 2
e.g. R1b-S26 I believe is R1b1b2a1a3
Also, does anyone know where there is a table that translates the different subclade group names?
I am predicted to have the following probablities 34% R1b-North/South 2, 33% R1b-North/South 1 and 16% R1b-S26.
-
The R1b subclades don't have names like North and South. Where did you get this prediction from? Have you had any SNP testing done? Haplogroups and subclades can only be confirmed by SNP testing. It is particularly difficult to predict R1b1b2 subclades from haplotypes as the R1b1b2 haplotypes all tend to be very similar. R1b1b2 broadly divides into two major subclades P312 (which roughly correlates with the Celtic fringe and is particularly prevalent in Ireland) and U106 which seems to originate in the Benelux countries. S26 (also known as L1) is a subclade of U106. You can see the most up-to-date version of the R1b tree on the ISOGG website:
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html
According to current nomenclature S26 is R1b1b2a1a1c. While the tree is still being worked out the nomenclature keeps changing and it's easier to use the shorthand forms (eg, R1b-U106). There are numerous R1b projects:
http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroup_projects
Have you tried Whit Athey's haplogroup predictor:
http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/index.html
If you want to know your subclade you really need to get the proper SNP testing done. The best option is Family Tree DNA as they have the widest range of tests and all the haplogroup projects. SNP testing can also be done at Ethnoancestry.
Debbie
-
Hi Debbie,
Many thanks for your very quick detailed reply.
I used the Jim Cullen predictor with my 20 Genebase markers.
http://members.bex.net/jtcullen515/TempTable.htm
I have just ordered a 37 marker Y-test from FTDNA.
With Genebase I have never matched more than 12 markers with anyone in their database.
I will try Whit Athey's predictor sometime tomorrow.
My paternal gt grandad doesn't have a father's name on his birth cert, so I am intrigued as to where his dad may have come from and what his surname might be.
Happy new year!
Steve
-
Whit Athey's predictor gave me 100.0% R1b.
Steve
-
Hi Steve
You just managed to get a kit ordered before the sale ended! GeneBase only have a comparatively small database. With R1b1b2 I would hope you will get some matches with other surnames as FTDNA now have such a huge database. The difficulty is trying to decide which matches are relevant. You're really hoping for a match with someone with ancestors from the same area as you. If you're interested in the deep ancestry, it's worth ordering the deep clade test to refine the haplogroup. Once you're in a haplogroup project you'll be able to keep up with the latest research and if new SNPs are discovered you can order them on an a la carte basis if they are likely to be significant.
Debbie
-
Debbie,
I have been looking at my Genebase results more carefully.
I do have a few 18/20 matches with the GD=3. I have never had a 19 or 20/20 match. The 12/12 I mentioned was a perfect match for the 12 markers but I checked the match in the appropriate surname project and for the 20 markers only 14 matched with the other 6 being 1 position out.
In SMGF the best match I get is 16/18.
Hopefully the FTDNA 37 marker test and larger database will come up with better leads. I ordered this through my surname project. Will I be able to compare my DNA to others using geographic location? I've seen some stunning mappings for the name 'Logan'.
Steve
-
Steve
12-marker matches are meaningless. I have some R1b men (Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype) with over one thousand matches at 12 markers. The Niall of the Nine Hostages signature has even more 12-marker matches. 12-marker matches mostly fall apart with the addition of extra markers. 25-marker matches with different surnames also usually tend to become mismatches at 37 markers.
You should also try uploading your GeneBase results to GeneTree (the commercial arm of SMGF) and Y-search: http://www.ysearch.org
Only around one third of FTDNA customers upload their results to Y-search so you really need to be in their database to compare with everyone else. There are lots of geographical projects. I've compiled a list of all the British projects I know of here:
http://cruwys.blogspot.com/2009/08/dna-projects-for-british-isles.html
You can join as many projects as you like. You can start joining projects once you have your kit number and password. The FTDNA results pages have a map showing place of origin of most distant known ancestor but it is very much reliant on project administrators getting participants to supply data.
-
Hi, this is probably going to show up my ignorance on the subject but,
1. If your parents bloods were a mismatch and you had to have a transfusion does that effect the results.
Or does dna go deeper than blood groups and types.
marcie
-
Debbie,
Many thanks for your help. I am beggining to understand - I think.
In Ysearch my best matches are eight GD 3s on my 20 markers. All originating from Europe or the USA. Clearly GD3 on 20 markers doesn't tie things down very well either.
How do I upload my Genebase results to GeneTree?
Steve
-
I have also wondered if we could try and prove blood relationship by other methods than DNA.
-
Steve
You just need to set up a free GeneTree account. You have to enter the marker values manually.
Debbie
-
The only other way of proving blood relationships apart from DNA testing is by doing the traditional paper research and obtaining all the relevant certificates and any other information available. But of course what is written on a certificate is not always true.
Blood groups cannot be used for genealogical research, though they can sometimes reveal that a child is not the son or daughter of the father.
Debbie
-
Debbie,
Did that on GeneTree thanks and got a high confidence R1b1b2 subgroup classification and a nice map showing the highest density in Ireland. At least that confirms my origins are Western European!
Still only getting 18/20 individual matches at best though.
Many thanks for all your help.
Steve
-
Regarding Marcie's question; does it then follow that a boy will be of the same blood group as his father, and a girl of the same group as her mother?
-
Blood groups aren't sex-linked.
Have a look at the chart towards the bottom of this page - www.bloodbook.com/inherited.html - which explains the possible inheritance.
-
Thanks for clearing that one up!
-
The inheritance of blood groups is more complicated. Blood groups do not follow the paternal or maternal line and a child can have a completely different blood group to that of his parents. See this chart here:
http://www.nzblood.co.nz/?t=32
Debbie
-
OK
Another question which occurred to me. If someone has had a problem such Leukemia and has had marrow and bloods changed. They are going to have a greater problem tracking family if they leave things to late and do not have any parents DNA to use?
-
Luckily for us Marcie, we at present have six males to choose from if we go for a DNA sequence test.
-
Marcie
I'm not sure what the answer is there. DNA tests use cheek swabs or spit rather blood so it might not be a problem. It's always best to get the DNA tested while people are still alive to do it.
Debbie
-
I think we need the opinion of an expert on blood disorders if Rootschat has one.
-
Marcie
I'm not sure what the answer is there. DNA tests use cheek swabs or spit rather blood so it might not be a problem. It's always best to get the DNA tested while people are still alive to do it.
Debbie
That is what I was thinking. Whilst parents are still alive maybe we should ask them gently if they would leave us their genetic imprint. I do not see why the Government should have this information, if we cannot. The problem is that most of us only become interested in our origins later in life, when it is more likely that our parents are not going to be around to answer our questions or assist us, so maybe we should have our own Dna sampled for our families future knowledge. Not sure how else to say it.
-
Hi all,
I think this is a very important question - I have managed to get our y-DNA done to 67 markers and the deep clade test with my brother's co-operation. I have also ordered the Family Finder and mtDNA tests which I will do - I am now 63 years of age, and although my children don't seem to interested at this stage, I feel that in the future they will have this information for whatever purpose they choose to use it.
We simply don't know at this stage just where genetic genealogy is going to take us; who knows what it may reveal in time?
Cheers,
Tisy
-
Marcie
You make a very valid point. DNA testing for genealogy is still in its infancy. We have gone from 12 markers to 67 markers in the last ten years. Next year FTDNA will introduce a 100+ marker test. Whole genome sequencing could eventually become the norm. If the DNA from a particular person or a particular lineage is no longer available you won't be able to benefit from these advances in ten or twenty years' time. I already have some deceased project members. As well as getting DNA it also just as important to record the family information from the living. Barring major disasters such as fires and bombs, the historical records will still be there in the future.
Debbie
-
In most cases the required DNA will be passed on through generations, but I can understand what you're saying.
However, one thing to consider is the likelihood of contamination, particularly when swabs are done at home. Even the professionals can get it wrong. Recently I was watching a programme on one of the satellite documentary channels, and they mentioned that in several murder cases, the same female of Eastern European origin emerged in the tests, which completely confused the police working on the cases. Eventually this 'mass murderer' was traced to the East European factory where the swabs were manufactured :D
-
Also, I am not paranoid, but when we have our Dna tested of our own choice, and if it is done by a lab, that , I think should be our own personal information, so the lab after giving it to us, should destroy any records.
And if the Government, or the Police wish to take our DNA they should take their own samples and pay for it themselves. In the case of the police for burglaries and such like, if proven innocent these dna samples should either be given to the person whose dna it is, or destroyed in front of you including the paperwork and you should have the right to have this done, to see it done
to know its been done.
If we have our own dna samples, it should be our right to refuse to hand them over.
-
From a genealogy point of view I think its a brilliant step forward in helpng us who are interested now and for our future generations to help them understand many things, aspects about themselves and their family, present and past.
But we are also doing the Governments job for them and maybe whilst we are enjoying our hobby we have to protect our rights and those of our future generations.
marcie
-
Nick
The swab kit comes in sterile packaging. Once you've done the test it goes straight into a sterile container. The lab process is all automated and the vials are put in a machine so there is no human contact or risk of contamination. It's a different matter for the police when they're extracting DNA from a scene of crime.
Marcie
The DNA tests used for genealogical purposes are completely different from those used by the police. The police use a small panel of autosomal STR markers. These markers are completely different to the Y-STR markers used in surname projects and the autosomal SNPs used for the Family Finder and Relative Finder tests. The police cannot use samples in genealogical databases. A chain of custody is required for evidence, for which the sampling has to be witnessed. A genealogical company has no proof that a sample is from the person it is claimed to be from. The police will never ask a genealogy company to hand over a DNA sample. You can always ask a commercial company to destroy your sample. Most people prefer to have their sample stored for future use, either by themselves or their descendants. The forensic DNA database is a different matter altogether. I understood that the police were supposed to be destroying samples where no charges had been brought, but they are taking their time to do so.
Debbie
-
Thanks Debbie,
-
The forensic DNA database is a different matter altogether. I understood that the police were supposed to be destroying samples where no charges had been brought, but they are taking their time to do so.
Debbie
As ever, no doubt biding their time!
-
Hi,
I don't think we should be confusing DNA tests undertaken by private companies for genealogy purposes with police and government forensic investigations. When we do these tests we are asked whether we are prepared to share our information with other people, and we can refuse to do so.
I don't think a company such as ftDNA would compromise their business by divulging sensitive information to the Government or indeed any other body or person.
Cheers,
Tisy
-
Have just come across this interesting site and read through (instead of doing my voluntary 'work').
My BillyBlue was a black man transported from England to Australia 1801. No-one knows where his origins are, but the family think it was Jamaica or, less specifically, the West Indies.
Some other people who have documented his life think his roots are American Indian.
A few years ago, a Canadian cousin descended from Bill had his DNA tested and it showed "Deep West African roots" - which to us puts paid to the idea of him being American Indian.
With regard to an elderly father: Billy died 1834 aged 99 according to his burial certificate. His youngest child was born 1823 when he was 90, and the second youngest (my ggggf) was born 1815 when Billy would have been 82! He was reputedly a 'big, strong man' ;)
If you're curious, I am blond and fairskinned, apparently taking after his wife "a very fair English woman" ???
Dawn M
-
Hi, I,m interested in this discussion on the merits and demerits of dna testing. My family paper trail is mackenzie however i decided to have the 67 marker dna test carried out by ftdna after joining a mackenzie project This dna testing resulted in somewhat of a shock as it turns out that I am a direct male descendant of the Rose of Kilvarock line which is well documented so thus it would seem I am not a mackenzie and neither are my forebearers all though all paper trails indicate otherwise, Dna indications are that this non paternal event would seemed to have taken place some 3 to 5 hundred years ago so from taking a dna test I now have two family lines my paper trail mackenzie line and my dna rose of kilvarock line I am now checking out the matches which my dna line has thrown up among which are the family names of Rose, Ross, Mcneil. Massey none of which have figured in my paper trail at the moment
-
I don't think a company such as ftDNA would compromise their business by divulging sensitive information to the Government or indeed any other body or person.
Tisy
Unfortunately they might haave no choice in the matter! All it needs is a paranoid incoming government and another atrocity like 9-11.
-
I know I started this part of the conversation off, and therefore I think as Redroger does, that someone, somewhere at sometime is going to force the issue.
I do not know what the answer is, but I think that we ought to consider our position and look at our options before its too late. For our offsprings future privacy. If they want to share that is personal choice, but like facebook you cannot look at this retrospectively.
marcie
nb. currently I do not think that anything worrying can come from this, but people are already suffering from intellectual property theft, we just want to ensure that we do not give this type of person more ammo.
-
Marcie and all
The police would have no reason to request a DNA sample from someone who has tested with a commercial DNA testing company. For a start the police are not able to identify an individual from the Y-DNA results displayed on a project website. A person's name is never displayed, and if the name is not there how are the police going to know the person they are looking for is in the database? Y-DNA and mtDNA test results are not unique. Genetic genealogy tests are designed to establish which people are closely related. They do not identify an individual. Several hundred if not several thousand people could potentially share the same DNA result. With Y-DNA results it is common to have matches with several different surnames, and this is with a database of just over 200,000 Y-DNA samples from around the world. I have some people in my projects who have literally hundreds of matches. With the HVR1 and HVR2 mtDNA tests I have some people who have thousands of matches. The forensic DNA tests look at completely different markers. They are trying to establish a unique DNA signature found in one in a million people not thousands in a million. Even then, the DNA test is only used in police work in conjunction with over evidence.
Debbie
If the police require a DNA sample they would be able to get you to supply one anyway and it would have to be done under controlled conditions so that they can prove the chain of custody.
Debbie
-
My family paper trail is mackenzie however i decided to have the 67 marker dna test carried out by ftdna after joining a mackenzie project
It is common to find matches with different surnames, and it is still possible to have matches with different surnames at 67 markers, especially if you belong to one of the common haplogroups such as R1b1b2 or I1. Surnames are a relatively recent invention and these matches could indicate shared ancestry prior to the introduction of surnames. In Scotland you have the clan system and surnames did not always follow the paternal line. It might just be that no one else from your line has tested yet. You should try and get another Mackenzie from your line to take a DNA test, and preferably someone who is more distantly related to you such as a fifth or sixth cousin. Once you have two matching results you have confirmed the paper trail back to the point where you both share a common ancestor.
Debbie
-
Have just come across this interesting site and read through (instead of doing my voluntary 'work').
My BillyBlue was a black man transported from England to Australia 1801. No-one knows where his origins are, but the family think it was Jamaica or, less specifically, the West Indies.
Some other people who have documented his life think his roots are American Indian.
A few years ago, a Canadian cousin descended from Bill had his DNA tested and it showed "Deep West African roots" - which to us puts paid to the idea of him being American Indian.
Dawn M
Dawn, What DNA test did your Canadian cousin take and which company did he use? The old autosomal DNA tests which give ethnic origins are very unreliable. Does Billy Blue have a direct male line descendant who could take a Y-DNA test? The Y-DNA haplogroup would provide information on his ancestral origins. There are certain haplogroups which are only found in American Indians and there are others which are specific to Africa.
Debbie
-
Debbie (et al)
Sorry but I have no idea what company my cousin took, and it was a few years ago. I only know this cousin by email contact. He is a direct descendant of Billy Blue.
Billy Blue does not look like an American Indian, either; he looks like a Negro. We are fortunate that he was such a character that people painted his portrait, back in the 1820s, and we have been able to get a photographic copy of one of them. We are quite happy with what the DNA test my cousin had done, told us.
Thanks for your interest.
Dawn M.
-
Debbie,
Clans are not necessarily made up of related people. History states that unrelated people are given protection by being a member of a clan or sect of a clan. So would it not be best to find one McKenzie and one of the relatives from the other name to compare them to each other and also to your own markers.?
And would that not apply to anyone in the same position.
-
Marcie
I understand in this case that the gentleman already has matches with other surnames. The matches were close enough to indicate shared ancestry in the recent past. I'm not too familiar with the Scottish clan system but I know that people of Scottish origin often have matches with lots of different surnames. I understood that people often adopted the clan surname. I was suggesting this as one possibility. Ideally he should test other Mackenzies who are known to be related so that he has a baseline to work from.
Debbie
-
I recently Y-DNA tested (which as part of my surname project is free to British men) after hitting brick walls with my Phillips line in the 1800's. I didn't get any matches to any Phillips' (not surprising as relatively few British Phillps males have been tested) but I got close matches to living members of a Phelps line in the US (from the tests it's calculated we share a common ancestor about 16 generations ago - which puts it possibly in the 1500's). Their ancestry is well documented back to the early pilgrim Phelps colonists of the New England area of the US, who came from the Somerset (and possibly Gloucestershire) area of England in the early 1600's, and probably directly to a William Phelps b. c1593 in Crewkerne. Phelps is one of the rarer variations of the Phillips surname (or vice versa) but now knowing the link due the the DNA test adds a new, and exciting, angle to my research, and leapfrogs 300-400 years into the past. The hard part of course is filling in the missing years, which will probably only be possible if more people test.
-
Arrgghhhh! I so wish I had a male relative who could be tested!
-
If you can go back in the direct male line, and then forwards again to find a living descendant still in the male line, it might be possible.
-
Hi all, just thought I would add my thoughts to the discussion about DNA testing,
I have had a Y67 test done, My MTDNA 1+2 regions tested and have also had the family finder test done.
I have found it very useful knowing the origins of my deep ancestry something which I personally find facinating. The family finder test is relatively new, this can identify up to 4th cousins in your tree although this can be challenging as the link can be either maternal or paternal.
I have to date three maternal matches (within the last 700 years) we have the same mother according to the genetics, one match in USA, one in Norway and my own in Ireland, these all fit with a possible migration pattern of my ancestors.
My Y testing has no exact matches at the moment so its a case of waiting to see if anyone in the future matches.
If anyone wants to discuss any of these just drop me a line.
Paul
-
If anyone is interesting in learning more about how DNA testing works I would suggest you come along to "Who do you think you are? Live" in London at the end of February. There is a DNA workshop and a number of DNA talks scheduled both within the DNA workshop programme and the SOG workshop programme.
DNA test kits are usually on sale at a reduced price throughout the show and there are rumours that Family Tree DNA will be launching a new 110-marker Y-DNA test at the show this year.
The workshop programmes can be seen here:
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouarelive.co.uk/the-event
If you have any questions on DNA testing do come along to the ISOGG (International Society of Genetic Genealogy) stand no. 430 near the DNA workshop area. ISOGG members will be on hand to answer any questions visitors might have.
Debbie
-
So there is hope for me yet.!
same boat. no surviving males. this is a fourth angle to add to my other three possibilities for finding my relatives family.
marcie
-
Thanks for the information Debbie, Looks as though i shall get my DNA tested tyhis time.
-
I would advise anyone of going beyond a 37 marker Y DNA test unless they do the research to learn what additional benefit might accrue. From what I have seen, the extra expenditure for the 67 marker test results in an infinitesimal increase in probabilities for matches being related. A match of 36/37 markers has essentially the same probabilities as a match of 66/67 markers. Ask yourself if the significant cost difference is worth it. I haven't seen the probabilities for success relating to the possible 110 marker test.
I do support DNA testing for genealogy, but feel one has to retain a healthy skepticism of how helpful current testing might be for you.
Nick
-
Nick
You're quite right and for most people a 37-marker test is all that is needed to establish whether or not you match with other people who share the same surname. If however someone is looking to match other surnames (eg, when looking for a match for an illegitimate line) then it is very helpful to upgrade to 67 markers to see which surnames are worth investigating. With the more common haplogroups (R1b1b2 and I1) people can sometimes have lots of matches with different surnames at 37 markers, though in most cases these won't be worth investigating as there will be no chance of finding the genealogical link.
At one extreme I have a project member who has literally hundreds of matches at 37 markers. At 67 markers he still has over 200 matches with a variety of surnames. He is a match with the prolific Niall of the Nine Hostages signature:
http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers/default.aspx?faqid=9#409
At the other extreme there are people who don't have a single match at all, not even at 12 markers.
If people are interested in exploring their deep ancestry within haplogroup projects then 67 markers can also be very useful as it will enable the project manager to date the ages of the subclades more accurately and you will have a better idea as to which surnames you are closest to.
It really all depends on your motivation for testing.
Debbie
-
So a male who is sure there is illegitimacy in his ancestry 4-5 generations ago in his male line would be recommended to take a 67 marker test in preference to a 37?
-
But what I dont get here is the Y tests all go down the male line and if there is illigitimacy they will tell you that after generation x you cannot be related but how does that then transform into but you can be related to that SMITH branch there and oh yes not to forget the JONES line there. This also goes aganst everything I had heard from other testing groups so someone somewhere is spinning a few lines
-
It's like a matchmaking game. A father and son would normally match on 37/37 markers. Two first cousins or second cousins with the same surname would match on 37/37 or perhaps 36/37. As you go back in time more mutations creep in so two sixth or seventh cousins might match on 34 or 35/37 markers. When you take a Y-DNA test your results go into the database and you are given a list of all your close matches (ie, 34/37, 35/37, 36/37). Your matches are those people with whom you share a common ancestor on the direct paternal line so if there was a surname change with an illegitimacy the match would still be picked up. The problem with a DNA test is that it only tells you that you share a common ancestor but doesn't tell you in which generation you share that ancestor. The range of possibilities is very wide. I have two eleventh cousins who match on 35/37 markers and two second cousins who match on 35/37 markers. Some of the matches you pick up will be from 600 years ago or more where for most people there will be little hope of finding a paper trail connection and especially so if there has been a surname change. By adding extra markers you increase the resolution of the test, which is especially helpful when seeking matches with other surnames. These guidelines help to explain how the matches work:
http://www.familytreedna.com/genetic-distance-markers.aspx?testtype=37
http://www.familytreedna.com/genetic-distance-markers.aspx?testtype=67
It is possible to order a 37-marker test and upgrade later. If you belong to a rare haplogroup then it might not be necessary as you will get fewer matches anyway, but you won't know this until you test. It all makes much more sense when you test yourself and have your own results to look at!
Debbie
-
Debbie,
But there in lies my problem. If my son had been conceived from an illicit affair he would have no matches with anyone within my direct line. Yet the was you make your point and the links that are shown suggest that he would. Now what isnt clear is whether this DB you talk about keeps all surnames and their profiles and if so they can then obviously match to a known group. All this is doing is presenting a DNA company with a large amount of money and a FH with the headache of working out how they connect. With illigitimacy there is no way they could find that information so in reality it is a waste of time within the genealogical field.
It is about as much use as those who have the same haplo group as the UK royal family. They then want to try and prove descsent but dont realise that the particular Haplo involved with the same mutations is prevalent all across Europe.
-
If your son was born from an illicit affair he would not have the same Y-chromosome as you and you would both only match on a few markers and might even be in a different haplogroup altogether. Family Tree DNA now has almost 200,000 Y-DNA results in its database. Both of you might still get matches within the database at 37 markers. However, even if the surname of the real father was not known, if he has close matches at high resolution with other surnames this would provide clues about the potential surname of the biological father. You would still have to do the paper research to work out the actual connection.
Some adoptees have been able to trace their birth fathers through DNA testing. Dick Hill's website has some useful information:
http://www.dna-testing-adviser.com
The success rate is currently about 30% but I think it would be lower for people in the UK.
There have even been cases of sperm donors finding the identity of their fathers through DNA testing:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4400778.stm
With illegitimacy, adoption, etc, it is all a matter of luck as to who else is in the database and whether or not they have the information which might help.
Most people however use DNA testing within structured surname projects which are aiming to test all lines and work out which lines are genetically related.
-
Here is a link to another interesting story about a man who confirmed through DNA testing that his grandfather, who had always gone by the surname Brown, was actually a Baumgardner:
http://randymajors.com/2010/12/man-who-wasnt-john-charles-brown.html
This story is an excellent example of how Y-DNA testing can help confirm a surname change.
Nancy
-
I've just remembered there is also an excellent example in the Swinfield DNA project where the real father turned out to be the lodger who was present in all the censuses!
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Swinfield/default.aspx?section=results
Debbie
-
I have reached a point where the only possible way I can confirm whether my paternal progenitor is correct is to ask a distant male relative (1st cousin once removed), and a descendant from a brother in the same line if they would be prepared to take the DNA 37 marker test.
Both gentlemen live in the U.K. and I would possibly have to offer financial assistance as this would be for my benefit (but also of interest to them). Could someone please advise where and what costs I am looking at?
Ceeoh
-
Ceeoh,
Look at ftdna.com under "products". Current price is $169US. If you are able to link to a family project you can save about $20. If you had asked about 6-8 weeks ago you could have had each done for about $119 with end of year sale and family project discount. FTDNA is the largest, usually cheapest, and probably most respected company for genealogical DNA testing.
Nick
-
Oooerrrr ! what would that be in Pounds to be coverted to Rand our rate of exchange at the moment is we pay R11.68 for GBP1 i.e. GBP60 would cost me R664 :o Don't know the Dollar/Rand exchange rate.
-
http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert.cgi?Amount=1&From=ZAR&To=USD&image.x=45&image.y=6&image=Submit
-
Hi Ceeoh,
Just one other thing; if you are intending to eventually do more testing, say to 67 markers, it is cheaper to do the whole lot at once, i.e. go for the 67 marker test. Just to give you some idea, we had 147 exact matches at 12 markers; at 25 markers (genetic distance 1) we had three people of the same name or variant; at 25 markers (genetic distance 2) we had 14 matches (12 different surnames not including the one at 25 markers + 1); at 37 markers (genetic distance 3) we had 3 matches (all the same as the 25 + 1 matches); at 37 markers (genetic distance 4) we had one match of the same name, but a different person;
We then decided to do the 67 marker test, and hey presto - 1 good 63/67 match to the one person who we matched all the way through. We also decided to go for the deep clade test to determine our exact subclade which is R1b1b2a1b4c1 (L20). This person has also done the deep clade and has tested L20, as have a few others of the same name, but more distantly related.
The point I am trying to make is that you will get a far more accurate test at 67 markers if you are in the hg R1b; however the difficulty is of course that you do not know this until you test! We would have saved a fair few dollars if we had just gone for the 67 marker test in the first place.
Carol
-
For anyone with British ancestry even if there is no surname project you can test through a geographical project to get the discounted project pricing. I have put a full list of geographical projects on my blog:
http://cruwys.blogspot.com/2009/08/dna-projects-for-british-isles.html
There are also geographical projects so very few people would ever need to pay the full price.
Family Tree DNA normally have sales in July and December when the standard 37-marker test is usually on sale for US $ 119 and the 67-marker is also usually discounted.
The kits are also discounted at Who do you think you are? Live which is held at Olympia, London, at the end of February:
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouarelive.co.uk
Debbie
-
Thanks Debbie, your earlier reply has clarified things for me. I intend having a 37 marker test at Olympia. In the past has the show been quieter on Friday or Saturday?
-
Saturday was the busiest day last year. The doors were closed at one point late morning and they wouldn't let anyone else in. Friday was also very busy. Sunday is the quietest day. They've booked extra space at Olympia to allow for more people so the same problem should not arise this year.
Do come along and say hello on the ISOGG stand (no. 430 near the DNA workshop area). I'll be at WDYTYA all three days helping on the stand on and off. We have free FTDNA tests available for some surnames, though I haven't yet seen the full list. We'll have a big poster up on the stand with all the details.
-
I enjoy reading the posts on this thread as I find DNA to be fascinating. In 2010 I contacted a fellow researcher re a magazine article on DNA that he had written during or post 2007. He kindly forward a copy of the article. Of course, much will have been said since the article was written but I attach it as you too may find it interesting.
"Eventually anyone researching a family tree will run into a brick wall" by Donald and Margaret McArthur.
Regards.
Liz
-
Hmm.... I think the writers of that article make it sound a lot easier than the reality.
In reality, those who commit crimes are detected because they (or someone else in the family) has had a DNA sample taken after a crime was committed. Since criminals coming from criminal families are not exactly unknown, the chances of a DNA sample eventually turning up are quite likely. However, for the typical law-abiding citizen, the chances of finding someone else in their family who have paid a substantial sum to have a DNA test taken and stored in a database are substantially lower.
So, whilst I'm not disputing that DNA works, it only works if others have paid to have a DNA sample taken, and because it's not cheap, then the chances are low.
-
See you there then, on the friday! What time do the doors open, and is there any real advantage in booking in advance?
-
The doors open at 10.00. It helps to get tickets in advance to avoid the queues, and I think it's usually cheaper. There are normally people queuing round the block waiting to get in. Last year on the Saturday some people without tickets were not allowed in until the crowds had subsided.
There are lots of offers around for two tickets for the price of one in the various FH magazines and with some of the big companies.
If you're going on your own then Ancestry have an offer on just for this weekend:
http://blogs.ancestry.com/uk/2011/02/11/who-do-you-think-you-are-live-the-big-match
Here are details of the full-price tickets.
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouarelive.co.uk/tickets
See you there on Friday!
Debbie
-
Thanks Debbie!
-
Just taken advantage of the very good offer from Ancestry, most of the others don't really offer a discount at all after the booking fee is included. Olympia 25th Feb.
-
My boyfriend has done the DNA test and had his results back - but we're not really sure what to do with them! He went for the fullest version of the test (60-something I think) and someone else on the site is showing up all the way along but as they haven't had the test up as far, they stop at 35 (or 37... I forget).
What should he do now? He's found it interesting that his male line is halogroup J2 (very common around the Meditteranean), but... what now?
-
How exciting! I believe J2 is quite rare and is one of the haplogroups that's possibly associated with the Roman occupation of Britain. You need to make sure your boyfriend joins the haplogroup J2 project:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/J2%20Y%20DNA%20group/default.aspx
There are other J2 projects but I think they are mostly for Jews and Arabs or for people who have taken the deep clade test which refines the subclade giving you lots of extra numbers and letters after the J2 :
http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroup_projects
Make sure he joins the relevant surname project, assuming there is one for his surname. (If not you could always start one!) There might also be a geographical project of interest. I've put a list of the British ones here:
http://cruwys.blogspot.com/2009/08/dna-projects-for-british-isles.html
You should be able to find the projects by logging into his personal page and then clicking on Join Projects.
From a genealogical perspective you are hoping to find close 37 and/or 67-marker matches with other people of the same or similar surnames. (Ignore all the 12- and 25-marker matches.) If so, you can compare notes with your matches and try and work out the connection. Matching DNA results will also serve to verify existing family trees. It's worth contacting the 37-marker match to find out more about his ancestry. If it's a different surname it will probably be difficult if not impossible to find a connection. If there are no significant matches for now he just stays in the database and gets notified by e-mail of any future matches.
-
Talking of results just back, I havejust had my mtDNA (mitachondrial) results for HVR1 back. We are in Haplogroup H with the following differences to the CRS (Cambridge Reference Standard?) -
16287T
16362C
16482G
16519C
What has really surprised me is that although "H" is very common in Western Europe (about 40% of Western Europeans are in this group) I have not one match in the ftDNA database. I have a about 4 or 5 .1 matches on Mitosearch, none of whom have the 16287T mutation. After looking at some research (little of which I understand!) I think it may be that we fall into the subgroup H6, which is about 40,000 years old (the oldest subgroup of H), but until I do more testing we will not know for sure. Can anyone advise whether it would be best to go for HVR2, or should be go for the full sequence?
Cheers,
Carol
-
With haplogroup H people often have literally thousands of matches with the HVR1 test. I have some people with over 8000 matches. Because of the preponderance of matches people who have upgraded to the higher-resolution tests will usually switch off the notifications for the HVR1 matches so that they don't get inundated with match e-mails.
The combined HVR1 + HVR2 test gives you results for about 1143 base pairs in the hypervariable region, otherwise known as the control region. Mutations are more likely to occur in this region. The full sequence test will give you results for all 16,569 base pairs in the mitochondrial genome. A lot of the mutations that define the different subclades are only found in the coding region. You only get the coding region results from the FGS test.
If you really want to know your subclade then the FGS is the way to go. It is however still comparatively quite expensive. FTDNA usually have an upgrade sale about once a year so it might be an idea to wait for the next one. There are about 14,000 people in the FTDNA database who have taken the FGS test (including me!) so the chances of finding a genealogically significant match are quite low. An exact FGS match is usually within a genealogical timeframe, whereas with the lower resolution tests 50% of the time a match could indicate a shared ancestor in a much deeper timeframe.
However because the test is still quite new you are effectively participating in the research. The results of FTDNA customers are helping to define the branches of the mitochondrial tree. Customers can upload their results to GenBank, a public database used by scientific researchers.
Whatever you decide make sure you join the haplogroup H project:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/H%20mtDNA%20Haplogroup
There are subprojects for the various clades but you can only join those if you have FGS results.
-
I have had an email from FTDNA, my results should be available around the 29th April, and I shall then know 1) which branch of the primate family I belong to? and/or 2 whether or not Homo sapiens Neanderthalensis is in fact extinct, or alive, well and living in Bournemouth. What a pity the census isn't May 1st!
-
Thanks for that Redroger. I was laughing so hard after reading your point 1, that I had tears in my eyes and couldn't read the rest of your post until I left my computer for a bit. If point 2 is proved, then we will finally have evidence that H. neanderthalensis did indeed have a sense of humor, so not all is lost.
Nick
-
Many thanks for the advice and info - will go for the full sequence when I can afford it.
Cheers,
Tisy
-
Pleased you enjoyed it Nick; a putative cousin in the USA is becoming very anxious to know my results.
-
Interestingly it's now been found that Europeans share a small percentage of DNA with Neanderthals:
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1987568,00.html
Ozzy Osbourne was found to have some Neanderthal DNA when he had his full genome sequenced, and we probably all have a little bit of Neanderthal DNA but it doesn't show up on the Y-chromosome or in mitochondrial DNA or at least it hasn't done so far! We await the news from Bournemouth with interest!
-
Interesting, I'll get some plasters in to stop my knuckles getting sore just in case.
-
I believe J2 is quite rare and is one of the haplogroups that's possibly associated with the Roman occupation of Britain.
As Julius Caesar said:-
I came, I saw, I left.
or someat like that ;)
There is no evidence that the Romans changed the DNA makeup of Britain significantly. Mediterranean J1 people are much more likely connected with more recent immigrants, ie medieval & ashkenazi Jews, Italians, etc.
I have had an email from FTDNA, my results should be available around the 29th April, and I shall then know whether or not Homo sapiens Neanderthalensis is in fact extinct, or alive, well and living in Bournemouth.
Would you also be of the Jedi Knight religion perchance? That would give the census takers something to think about. 8)
-
I believe J2 is quite rare and is one of the haplogroups that's possibly associated with the Roman occupation of Britain.
As Julius Caesar said:-
I came, I saw, I left.
or someat like that ;)
There is no evidence that the Romans changed the DNA makeup of Britain significantly. Mediterranean J1 people are much more likely connected with more recent immigrants, ie medieval & ashkenazi Jews, Italians, etc.
I have had an email from FTDNA, my results should be available around the 29th April, and I shall then know whether or not Homo sapiens Neanderthalensis is in fact extinct, or alive, well and living in Bournemouth.
Would you also be of the Jedi Knight religion perchance? That would give the census takers something to think about. 8)
Two replies: 1) The more serious, regarding the DNA makeup of the British population being largely unaltered by migration, this is precisely the point made by Stephen Oppenheimer in his book "The origins of the British", now available in paperback,his thesis is that the modern population of Europe originated in "Refuges" from the last Ice Age. The one most affecting us being situated in what is now the Basque area of Northeastern Spain, the others situated in the Alpine region of Italy/Austria, and what is now the Ukraine had less effect.
2) The less serious, No I am not a Jedi knight, I left the question blank for the very simple reason I just don't know.
-
Two replies: 1) The more serious, regarding the DNA makeup of the British population being largely unaltered by migration, this is precisely the point made by Stephen Oppenheimer in his book "The origins of the British", now available in paperback,his thesis is that the modern population of Europe originated in "Refuges" from the last Ice Age. The one most affecting us being situated in what is now the Basque area of Northeastern Spain, the others situated in the Alpine region of Italy/Austria, and what is now the Ukraine had less effect.
That theory is several years out of date (like his book) now.
The theory that has replaced it is that the early N Europeans that hunted wooly mammoths, lived alongside Neanderthals and were the first to settle Britain, retreated as you say to the "Refuges" in the last ice age and then repopulated N Europe. They were largely made of YDNA Haplogroup I and mtDNA Haplogroup U.
However, c 5000 yrs ago there was a large influx of horse-riding, charioteering, farming peoples from the Black Sea (and Asia before that). They moved through the Anatolia (Turkey) and S Balkans areas into central Europe around Germany/Switzerland. Their population exploded and they expanded rapidly N, E, S & W mainly in the late bronze & iron age. As they overran areas where the early hunter gatherers lived it is thought that (as is usual with invasions) they slaughtered the men and stole their women. They were largely comprised of Y Haplogroup R1 and mtDNA Haplogroup H + a few others.
I represent pretty much the average result of this theory, ie. I am R1b on my paternal side so am descended from the "recent" bronze/iron age immigrants but am also mtDNA HG U5 which means my maternal forebear was one of the "ancient" hunter gatherers who hung out with the Neanderthals around Finland or there abouts. In effect a cross between Old and New European.
I have probably explained it very badly but I think this site might enlighten/confuse you more:- http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml
-
Hi,
We too come in well to this theory - y-DNA is R1b1b2a1b4c1 (L20) - possible Alpine Celt; mtDNA - H (HVR 1) - still to test further so not sure about the ancient stuff yet.
Cheers,
Carol
-
Interesting Supermoussi. Do you know if oppenheimer has said anything further on the suject since his book? It is only two years since I attended a lecture by him in Winchester on the subject. Things certainly move fast!
-
I don't think he has done much since then. According to his wiki entry he acted as consultant to a TV series in 2009 but other than that nothing else. It sounds like his book writing was a semi-retirement activity so guess he may have fully retired by now?
It is a shame as people still read his book but subsequent discoveries have knocked some of his ideas (but not all of them) on the head. An updated version would help clarify things no end.
-
Interestingly it's now been found that Europeans share a small percentage of DNA with Neanderthals:
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1987568,00.html
Ozzy Osbourne was found to have some Neanderthal DNA when he had his full genome sequenced, and we probably all have a little bit of Neanderthal DNA but it doesn't show up on the Y-chromosome or in mitochondrial DNA or at least it hasn't done so far! We await the news from Bournemouth with interest!
A further reply on this thread stated that the DNA transmission seemed to be in one direction only, from Neanderthal to Sapiens Sapiens, to me this suggests that the Neanderthal DNA was likely transmitted by rape of modern human women. Does anyone agree or am I simplyfying the situation?
Supermoussi: Can you suggest any later books on the subject please?
-
A further reply on this thread stated that the DNA transmission seemed to be in one direction only, from Neanderthal to Sapiens Sapiens, to me this suggests that the Neanderthal DNA was likely transmitted by rape of modern human women. Does anyone agree or am I simplyfying the situation?
The Neanderthals were violent thugs theory has also been thrown into disrepute. I doubt there is a greater proabability that Neanderthals raped Cro-Magnons than vice versa. Also why does it have to be rape? When a labrador breeds with a poodle it's not regarded as rape, is it?
Can you suggest any later books on the subject please?
The only books I read were around the same time and were Oppenheimer's and David Miles Tribes of Britain.
http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/products/david+miles/the+tribes+of+britain/3807050/
The internet seems to be the best place to keep tabs on latest developments (like the pioneering Walk the Y projects) at places like
http://dna-forums.org/
There are newer books like
http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/products/george+redmonds/turi+king/david+hey/surnames2c+dna2c+and+family+history/7922276/
but afraid I haven't read them.
-
[
The Neanderthals were violent thugs theory has also been thrown into disrepute. I doubt there is a greater proabability that Neanderthals raped Cro-Magnons than vice versa. Also why does it have to be rape? When a labrador breeds with a poodle it's not regarded as rape, is it?
True, perhaps modern sensitivities.
-
There is no evidence that the Romans changed the DNA makeup of Britain significantly. .....
Are you sure about that ? The Romans introduced rabbits into Britain, and look how many of them there are ! I'm not saying that the Romans bred like rabbits, but I have trouble accepting that the Romans had little impact on our DNA :)
-
I'm not saying that the Romans bred like rabbits, but I have trouble accepting that the Romans had little impact on our DNA :)
The Romans were a well organised military presence in Britain, not a colonizing one, and were out numbered by the Britons. At the end of a tour of duty soldiers posted here were free to return to their families/home elsewhere in the Roman empire. Once the Romans had their big credit crunch they packed up their bags and left to defend Rome, unlike, the Saxons, Normans, etc., who stayed.
The Romans were always deeply unpopular with indigenous Britons. Once their army left, I wouldn't have like to have been a civilian Roman left in Britain, as the Britons took to destroying Roman buildings, collaborators, etc., with great relish.
In addition, most dalliances Roman soldiers had with the locals would have resulted in children born into poverty, with relatively poor prospects of survival.
-
Here is a website that has a lot of info on European DNA that is kept up to date with new discoveries. I have only skim read it but it looks pretty interesting.
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/peoplingeurope.shtml
-
I'm not saying that the Romans bred like rabbits, but I have trouble accepting that the Romans had little impact on our DNA :)
The Romans were a well organised military presence in Britain, not a colonizing one, and were out numbered by the Britons. At the end of a tour of duty soldiers posted here were free to return to their families/home elsewhere in the Roman empire. Once the Romans had their big credit crunch they packed up their bags and left to defend Rome, unlike, the Saxons, Normans, etc., who stayed.
The Romans were always deeply unpopular with indigenous Britons. Once their army left, I wouldn't have like to have been a civilian Roman left in Britain, as the Britons took to destroying Roman buildings, collaborators, etc., with great relish.
In addition, most dalliances Roman soldiers had with the locals would have resulted in children born into poverty, with relatively poor prospects of survival.
I'm sorry, but your facts are well wide of the mark. The Romans were established in Britain for hundreds of years, was first invaded in 55BC by 12,000 men, and in the following year (54BC) Ceasar returned with another 30,000 men. At that time, Britain was a lawless place, and the Romans brought stability, good roads, clean water and sanitation. The average life expectancy of a native British child at that time was 3 years of age. It has been said that we did not catch up with the standard of their battlefield medicine until 1914. The advances in clean water and sanitation brought here by the Romans had a big impact on the life expectancy of all.
http://www.aidan.co.uk/article_romantours.htm
In some places, there was some resistance from the locals, but in many other places the locals made peace with the Romans, and many of our largest towns and cities started off as Roman settlements. Roman soldiers were not permitted to marry the locals, but they were permitted to have girlfriends, and offspring from these 'dalliances' was inevitable. Since the Romans were here from 55BC until about 450AD (about 500 years), so I think they had plenty of time to spread their DNA around.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/romans_in_britain.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Britain
-
Ok, this is getting a little silly. We are talking DNA genetics in this thread, not relatively recent (in a evolutionary sense) history: Thousands of years, not hundreds. Of course Britain is a mixed bag of peoples since it was invaded continually for many hundreds of years. But research shows that many of these invasions (e.g. Norman) resulted in very small DNA contributions. Normans are estimated (using rigorous research) at a less than 5% contribution, and the Roman occupation even less. Based on DNA analysis by Paabo (cited above), the normal non-African Brit is likely to have a greater contribution from Neandertals (1-4%) than from Romans. Plus, remember that the Roman army was made-up of soldiers from all over the then known western world, so determining any DNA contribution from a specific haplogroup amongst them is unlikely.
Nick
-
You are welcome to your opinion Nick.
-
Nick, I find that conclusion about the Normans a bit odd, considering that my own surname (Martin) is of Norman origin, and is the most popular surname in France, and the 26th most popular surname in Britain. I can only conclude, if the research is correct, that the Norman DNA has been diluted by all the other immigrants that came after the Normans ? Is there any other explanation ?
-
No, but this isn't really the same situation as I see it, I think this situation is more akin to (say) a European with an African wife. A closer comparison would seem to be a dog breeding with a fox.
-
re. "Roman" DNA - do u mean the DNA of the legions recruited from the Rhineland? Gaul? Elsewhere?
re. "Norman" DNA - do u mean the native "French" who settled in Britain, their few Danish overlords, or some of their European mercenaries?
You will find more info on this on the Newbie Questions forum & elsewhere on http://dna-forums.org/ but for brevities sake both areas are more murky than you would think.
-
FTDNA have just released their 110 marker Y-DNA test.
See:- http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers/default.aspx?faqid=9#330
-
I dont always trust percentages. 5% Norman contribution seems a bit low.
-
Since Norman DNA would have originated in Scandinavia I would imagine it difficult to segregate from the Danish, Angle, Saxon etc. which might be a factor in its apparent scarcity, also weren't they an elite rather a population replacement? In this aspect seems about right to me.
-
Hello Debbie
Just thought I would add RootsforReal.com a very good company located, I believe, in Germany.Lookin2
-
Debbie
Just received Family Finder Results for my sister. She has two matches. Both are 3rd-5th cousins and quite a few others (speculative). I have never heard of these surnames. If I do not e-mail can these two cousins e-mail me and have you been approached that way with your Father's Finder Test?
This is a big step forward as all DNA tests so far have produced very little. Question: As my sister is a half sister, if I get the same test done would I be able to compare differences for her (unknown) father to mine?. Thank you, Lookin2
-
I have a problem. My father was born the day after my grandparents were married. My grandmother was working in service up to the date of the marriage.
My grandfather was of Scottish descent. My grandmother's employers were German Jews. Would the DNA ancestry test be able to prove my paternal line as Celtic or Jewish?
I am a little concerned that these tests may be a bit of an expensive gimmick. Which is the best provider to use? Can anyone advise me please.
Brian
-
Hi Bamc,
We tested with ftDNA, and I understand from various forums that this company has a good reputation; different companies apparently do different types of testing, and the geneticist I am in touch with assures me that ftDNA do the better type of testing. If you are doing y-DNA testing and you need to find out your ethnic origins, then you need to go the whole hog, i.e. minimum 67 markers (111 markers now available) and the deep clade test, which gives you your subclade (subgroup of the haplogroup you fall into). In the case of the R1b haplogroup, this is particularly important as it is the most common haplogroup in Western Europe and has many subgroups. Unfortunately you do not know which group you fall into until you test!
Testing to just 12 markers is of no use at all - we have over 150 exact matches at 12 markers from all over the world; this is reduced to just one close match at 67 markers.
Cheers,
Carol
-
Hello Carol
Thankyou very much for your prompt and detailed response. I live in New Zealand but I presume the ftdna is available worldwide. I shall have a look at their website.
Regards
Brian
-
Hi Brian,
Hello from across the Ditch! I am in Victoria, Aus. Also have a look at the Eupedia site - sorry I don't have the link, but once you are in, just search on y-DNA and you will find heaps of info. Also the ISOGG site is very helpful. ftDNA also have "FAQ's" with everything you will need to make a decision. Be interested to hear the outcome of your test.
Carol
-
Thanks Carol
I'll have a good read of the very interesting websites youve given me . I will certainly let you know when I go ahead and and what results I get
Brian
-
I have noticed re The Family Finder Test that others, on Facebook, have had the 95% Orcadian, 5% Middle East, etc. I am trying to figure out if just one branch could be listed as 95% . If so, is it because so few have tested. The two 3rd-5th cousins are in the US and one stated his line have been in US for 200 years!!
I have read FAQ but have not found an answer. I am also beginning to wonder if this test will end up like the Y and Mt. tests , 10 markers, having a few matching strands to many???Lookin2
-
My test has come through, I am over 95% Scandinavian, German and Northern French, which is something of a surprise but I think fits, the other 4% plus was African which again I think fits with the out of African theory. I do have a link with another bearer of my surname we share 33/37 markers, but as our paper trees diverged over 400 years ago, I think this is quite likely. However my closest match is with a man in Western Canada who shares 36/37 markers, but not my surname. I think one of my forebears was a naughty boy!
Lookin2 in my surname study, there are 10 participants, and the only relationship is the 33/37 markers I mentioned above, so I think small numbers involved is a major factor, things can only improve as more tests are made.
-
http://youtu.be/RXXCUa7P2mQ
-
Thanks for that Youngtug.
-
I was wondering if anyone could give an opinion on which test would be most suitable for my situation.
I think an auto-somal test is right, but am unsure.
I live in Australia and have traced all of my mother's lines to the boat they came in on but for one(my father came in 1953 so his side was much easier).
Family tales say that this woman was an Australian Aboriginal, and I have found not a shred of evidence for her, apart from her name at her daughter's birth.
The line back to her is from my mother (who would take the test) to her father, then to her mother's mother's mother's mother.
I am not interested in proving a relationship to someone living - more in determining whether there is any truth to the tale.
I think AutoSomal DNA is what I need, and have seen that some sites do have aboriginal populations to compare against.
My mystery lady lived in Tasmania, however, and my understanding is that the Tasmanian aboriginals were of an earlier migration than those on the mainland, and are not closely related. The site I saw that had aboriginal populations for comparison, also did not have any from Tasmania.
I'm not sure if it's possible, but what I would really like a test that could either prove or disprove this family tale.
Lewis
-
hi forum has anyone had a dna ancestry done at all any information would be great i am doing a y test with 44 markers and wanted to get some peoples thoughts wether or not it is any good and if you have found lines that are connected to you let us know and is their a site to put this information up on please let me know thanks rory
i didnt know where to put ths topic ok
rory
-
You could have a read of this thread;
http ://www .rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,467647.0.html
Moderator Comment: topics now merged
-
I have recently had a 37 marker Y chromosome test by FTDNA. The outcome so far is patchy, my surname is fairly rare around 2200 instances worldwide, over 50% in the USA, 25% in UK and 22% in Canada, the remainder mainly in Australia. The highest concentration in Newfoundland , which fits well with migration from Dorset as the highest UK concentration is in South West England. With bearers of the surname I have 2 no relationship, one with whom I share 33/37 markers, suggesting a probable relationship, as a paper connection is around 1600AD at the latest this seems reasonable. The strongest relationship 36/37 shared markers is with a person in Canada, it seems my ancestors and his were in Lincolnshire between 1795 and 1900 approx.
I believe the principal reason there are so few matches is that only around 10 people have take the test so far.
-
I have had my Y-DNA and mitochondrial DNA tested but only from curiosity rather than to answer any family history question. But I have also arranged for some relations to have their Y-DNA haplotyped to address a likely non-paternal event back in the 18th century -with a useful outcome.
So you can do these tests for fun, but they don't come cheap, or you can formulate a family history question and DNA technology may be part of the solution.
-
My paper trail ran out in the late 18th century due to probable illegitimacy, though strangeky for the period I believe the baby took the father's surname, I also want to confirm a transatlantic link to Newfoundland where the surname is at it's highest incidence.
-
hi forum has anyone had a dna ancestry done at all any information would be great i am doing a y test with 44 markers and wanted to get some peoples thoughts wether or not it is any good and if you have found lines that are connected to you let us know and is their a site to put this information up on please let me know thanks rory
44 markers is a bit on the low side these days. 67 is better and you can now take 111 marker tests.
Ysearch allows you to look for random matches http://www.ysearch.org/ but you should really join surname and Haplogroup projects too.
Search for your surname & "DNA Surname Project" and see what comes up.
-
44 markers is a bit on the low side these days. 67 is better and you can now take 111 marker tests.
Ysearch allows you to look for random matches http://www.ysearch.org/ but you should really join surname and Haplogroup projects too.
Search for your surname & "DNA Surname Project" and see what comes up.
The more markers you have tested, the more the companies profit.
-
The more markers you have tested, the more the companies profit.
And it benefits us all as without these companies there wuld be no DNA testing. :D
-
True, but why pay for a Rolls Royce when a Ford will do the job adequately?
-
That analogy doesn't work I'm afraid. 37 markers will not do if you are interested in your pre-surname history or, indeed, if you are in a common haplogroup (R1b for example) and want to be sure of matches (there are borderline matches at 37 markers that dissappear at the 67 and 111 level) or to work out different family branches.
37 or 44 markers just isn't enough to do this.
If all you want to do is find out your top level haplogroup or whether you really are related to your close family however, 37 or 44 is fine.
-
See my replies 262 and 264 above, my objectives were to cross the Atlantic and to take my family association back before the 18th century problems. Should I need to go further back then I will certainly bear higher marker tests in mind.
-
Then for you that is fine, but I was replying to another poster and your objectives are not the same as many others..
-
I had the 37 marker Y-DNA test done a couple of years ago. Even though I am in the common Haplogroup R1b (predicted R1b1a2), I have never found a single match either within or across surnames.
I have always assumed that this just means that no-one with whom I share a common direct male ancestor within the last few hundred years has tested yet. However my question to those more knowledgeable than me is, now that much larger tests (67 & 111 marker) are easily available, is there likely to be any benefit in me upgrading my test? For example could I only match on say 30/37 with someone now (and so not be considered to be a close match), but if I upgraded and found I matched with them at 104/111, then that would be close enough to mean something?
Thanks
Mark
-
Hi Mark
How did you check for a match with your 37 marker Y-DNA? The biggest databases are with Family Tree DNA (FT-DNA) and Ysearch. If you didn't get a hit with this test checking against either of these databases, you certainly won't get a hit if you test for more markers of your Y-DNA.
If you have a DNA test done to go looking for unknown, living relations then the product Family Finder by FT-DNA or the similar one by 23andMe (along with Y-DNA and mitochondrial DNA tests) are probably the best tests to do. Other than expense, the problem with them is that they have been available for just over a year so the databases are relatively small; probably not useful unless your ancestry is in North America or western Europe because these are the people who predominate in the databases.
-
Thanks Adnepos_Iacobi. Thats what I thought, but there's no harm in making sure is there!
The test was with FT-DNA and I am also in the YSearch database, so I guess there's nothing to do but wait for a matching person to take a test.
-
so I guess there's nothing to do but wait for a matching person to take a test.
You could be more proactive than that, depending on circumstances. For example, I have solved two brick walls on my paternal line where I tracked down descendants of theoretical rellies and confirmed the link 100% via DNA.
-
Similar to my situation Supermoussi, but where I see a difficulty is in persuading potential relatives to part with £100+for a meaningful test, and I certainly can't afford to pay for theirs as well as my own.
-
You could be more proactive than that, depending on circumstances. For example, I have solved two brick walls on my paternal line where I tracked down descendants of theoretical rellies and confirmed the link 100% via DNA.
Which test did you use for this? I have a case where I know two people share a grandmother but don't know if her husband was the grandfather of both of them. Would the FamilyFinder test be the best one to try?
-
Hi Shropshire Lass
If there is an all-male lineage, a Y-DNA approach would be appropriate unless the two men in grandmother's life had the same Y-DNA (brothers, cousins, uncle/nephew...).
I suspect either one or both of the offspring of the grandmother or at least one of the two people were/are female. Autosomal tests such as Family Finder would do the business in this case but again, if the two men in grandmother's life were closely related, the result might be a little difficult to interpret.
-
I have a case where I know two people share a grandmother but don't know if her husband was the grandfather of both of them. Would the FamilyFinder test be the best one to try?
Do the two people have living fathers? If the 2 people shared the same grandfather then the Y-DNA of their fathers should match so a straightforward Y-DNA test could be used.
Otherwise autosomnal testing gets fiddly and you might want more specialist testing. Why not send a query to someone like:-
http://www.dna-worldwide.com/relationship-testing/
-
Since we are getting close to page 20, I think a new thread continuation should be opened as this subject will run and run.
-
Hi Shropshire Lass
If there is an all-male lineage, a Y-DNA approach would be appropriate unless the two men in grandmother's life had the same Y-DNA (brothers, cousins, uncle/nephew...).
I suspect either one or both of the offspring of the grandmother or at least one of the two people were/are female. Autosomal tests such as Family Finder would do the business in this case but again, if the two men in grandmother's life were closely related, the result might be a little difficult to interpret.
Both fathers are dead but the two people are male so that should make things easier. One has had the 67 marker test done with FTdna.
I don't think there's any likelihood that the grandfathers could be related - if there are two different men involved.
-
Both fathers are dead but the two people are male so that should make things easier. One has had the 67 marker test done with FTdna.
I don't think there's any likelihood that the grandfathers could be related - if there are two different men involved.
So you have the answer, a Y-DNA haplotype is approprate in the other male.
I'd suggest the same laboratory, to ensure that the markers appear in the same order and have the same names.
If you wish to be parsimonious, to show a difference in the male line, 37 marker comparison would be adequate but for the difference in cost, 67 markers would give you more confidence (but never absolutely complete proof, only proof beyond reasonable doubt) that the grandfather was one and the same.
Markers beyond the 67 will of course not help with the question in hand but might be interesting to answer other questions, which might apply to both individuals if they have the same paternal grandfather.
-
So you have the answer, a Y-DNA haplotype is approprate in the other male.
I'd suggest the same laboratory, to ensure that the markers appear in the same order and have the same names.
If you wish to be parsimonious, to show a difference in the male line, 37 marker comparison would be adequate but for the difference in cost, 67 markers would give you more confidence (but never absolutely complete proof, only proof beyond reasonable doubt) that the grandfather was one and the same.
Markers beyond the 67 will of course not help with the question in hand but might be interesting to answer other questions, which might apply to both individuals if they have the same paternal grandfather.
Many thanks.
-
I have been told that variations in DNA markers can occur at random and be caused by health and environmental factors rather than by mutation at a steady rate. Is this correct please, and if so where does it leave Y-DNA tests?
-
Not an easy question to answer Redroger, but simply put, the STRs (Short Tandem Repeats) used for DNA testing come from multiple locations. The type of mutation you are speaking about, cause by an environmental factor(e.g. a mutation caused by [say] a stray cosmic ray, would be extremely unlikely to affect all loci where the STR is found.
There are dozens of books for the layman that lay out the process, and you can find good information on the web. See for example, DNA Profiling section on Wikipedia.
Nick
-
Thanks Nick, More reading to do.
-
I have been told that variations in DNA markers can occur at random and be caused by health and environmental factors rather than by mutation at a steady rate. Is this correct please, and if so where does it leave Y-DNA tests?
I think this gets to one of the problems with commercial genealogy DNA tests. It's not simply a matter of a few stray random mutations.
The markers themselves (moreover) only represent fragments of DNA essentially taken at random in places likely (as in, not certain) to yield a result. And it's far from certain that those markers selected epresent a representative sample of DNA. That is, more unquantified variability.
While nevertheless interesting, I personally think that too much faith generally is put in Y-DNA testing and ancestry DNA testing generally, simply because of the way we view DNA, almost as if it were a silver bullet to puzzles.
Above, the words "beyond reasonable doubt" were used: really not sure about that at all; we really have to be careful about language here. It's suggestive of legal-like certainty which simply is not the case - commercial kits are not on a par with forensic tests used in courts of law, to begin with, without their level of certainty. In either case, we're in fact dealing with a balance of probabilities, but in ancestry DNA more so. In the immediately above case, it would certainly not be unreasonable (put it like that) to question the results. If you want anything like "beyond reasonable doubt", you'd essentially have to dig up granddad and do proper DNA tests.
Of course, as another piece of evidence, a postive result from the 67-marker test in the above case will support previously held ideas: which is in fact probably the best use for such commercial tests. Trawling databases for cold hits with results in your hot little hands simply doesn't bear thinking about, in my view.
Y-DNA usually runs alongside a name interest, i.e. searching to see how many generations back a possible common ancestor occurs, or to chart the different branches of the same name. The obvious problem is that surnames may not represent a genetic lineage, but family history: probably all of us have at least one example of a surname inherited from the female side (in the case of "illegitimate" births) or a surname taken from a stepfather... and they will be the ones we know about from probably the last 200-250 years. You're likely to include people who shouldn't be included and exclude people who should be included (simply by inheriting the "wrong" name as much as anything else). In terms of percentages of a group overall, may be the significance of such errors may not amount to much. But in terms of personal identity (and for a number of people, the name and geographical roots seem to be important) it could be 100% wrong and of consequence for being so.
A case in point. I descend from someone in 17th cent Suffolk. He shares a surname with someone else who lived in the region in the 14th century and who is regarded to be the progenitor of that surname in the Suffolk/Essex area. DNA tests have been and are being done on all males of that surname, including known male descendants of the 14th century progenitor, to link them together. There's a whole "identity" about what belonging to this group means (related to George W Bush! And Winston Churchill! Knights in shining armour in the time of Edward III! Etc.) Result: I'm told my lot (according to the test) are not related.
Really...? I don't think the results show that at all. It in fact only shows that some of the tested DNA markers don't match. And that's all. Short of extracting Y-DNA from this 14th century character and a male descendent on my side of the family, the question is never going to be resolved with any degree of certainty worth talking about.
DNA kits may be helpful in some cases, and no doubt most of the time the people it says are related probably are (it's just trying to find out in which cases the result is "incorrect"!). I personally could be willing to pay for a male descendant of my gt. gt. grandfather's supposed brother and me to find out if they really did have the same father, and would find the results interesting; but enough to convince me one way or the other? Most likely not, especially as we're now talking about 6 generations back to a shared ancestor.
I think it's better to be fully aware of the limitations, to understand the nature of probabilities that we're talking about (in the selection of markers as well as the results themselves); to make sure that we're asking the right kind of question; and to understand that ideally it should be used as just one piece of evidence with its own drawbacks in a story that we're assembling from other historical sources.
-
Thanks Temic for a comprehensive reply. You refer to "digging up grandad" to be certain. If it were a possibility it might come to that in my case! The husband of my grandmother was at least 71 when my father was born. I have taken a 37 marker Y chromosome test, and so far I have no certain matches with my own surname, which is quite scarce. One person with whom I have a possible 400 year old paper connection matches 33/37 markers, but is of a different haplotype, his J mine I. In view of the scarcity of the surname I have asked FTDNA if we could be related. They replied the match was co-incidence, and I have asked them (twice) if an error has been made. There has so far been no reply, this question is either too difficult or they are now ignoring my requests. I have a 36/37 match with a person with a different surname, and both families were in the same area between 1795 and 1900 when any unofficial adoption or illicit relationship must have occured.
As I say I have no certain match with my own surname, neither does the other man have with his, so we remain somewhat in limbo until either FTDNA respond, or further tests refine the results.
-
For any R1b L21s out there a new sub-clade has been revealed by the 1000 Genomes project. :) It actually consists of 6-8 SNPs nested under one another and so offers a way of separating out and dating its different sub-branches.
The sub-clade is defined by the SNP called DF21, and initial estimates predict 9-15% of all L21s will be in this branch. From early results it seems to include Irish, Welsh and English L21s, but the sub-clade is so old (definitely over 2000 years old and possibly over 3000 years) that there are no common STRs that define the sub-clade.
Initial theories for a common link between group members focusses on Iron Age Britain, but as with all origin theories this starts entering chronic "head-banging" terrritory ;D, especially at such an early stage of testing & research.
A project has been set up to research this group:- http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF21/default.aspx
Any L21s interested in testing for DF21, DF5, or any of the other SNPs, should note that DF21 appears to be parallel to M222, L513 and Scots Modal, so anyone in those groups has no need to test.
Thanks.
-
To add to the previous post, I don't know if anyone has posted it here before but a good history site, that is pretty good at keeping up to date with the latest DNA research, is:- http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/peoplingeurope.shtml
-
Having just read this thread, as considering a DNA test for sons male line,I am even more confused.
Does anyone know what Ancestry (DNA test) is bringing out soon. And is it really anything new or useful.
Thanks
-
I make you the following suggestions: There are several threads about DNA on this site, just use the search facility and you will bring them all up; hopefully you will clear the confusion. A male DNA test is a test on markers on the Y chromsome and will give your son's male lineage. Several companies offer the test, but I used FTDNA of Houston Texas, as their price was competitive; special offers are often available at major family history events. You will need a test of at least 37 markers, and the cost will probably be £80 sterling upwards. Hope that helps.
-
just a word of warning about the Ancestry DNA tests please check their terms and conditions fully to see if they subscribe to all European legislation protecting your personal information of your DNA. The ftdna site does comply - you can find further details on their site
-
Having just read this thread, as considering a DNA test for sons male line,I am even more confused.
Does anyone know what Ancestry (DNA test) is bringing out soon. And is it really anything new or useful.
Thanks
It could be this
http://www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com/2011/11/more-details-on-ancestrycoms-new.html
-
Hi all
Thanks for your replies.
The cheapest I have found for Male line is £107.
Still dont know whether to go for the full works? Or await Ancestry?
-
My guess is that some company will be doing the work for Ancestry, so they will be more expensive I guess.Go for one of the other reputable ones.
-
http://nimblediagnostics.co.uk/CC25759E002852C8/order/anc
Hi
Could some one look at the above link and tell me what they think.
And does it say anywhere how many markers are used in the paternal test.
Thanks
-
In my opinion I would steer well clear of them.
In my opinion they are set up more to provide paternity tests and the like not genealogy DNA tests which they appear to have tagged on as an after thought.
It does not say how many markers are used for the Y DNA test which I suggest indicates how little they understand about the genealogy DNA market as that is a fundamental question
-
Check if there's "Single Name" study group for your name, you might get a bargain, like Roger my own test was with the Houston company.
Skoosh
-
Check if there's "Single Name" study group for your name, you might get a bargain, like Roger my own test was with the Houston company.
Skoosh
Good thought...... I used FTDNA purely because they had a group researching my surname 8)
-
Nick, this business is largely driven by folk in the US who may not have a paper trail back to the UK. Getting matches in the US, while interesting, isn't taking them where they want to be. Finding donors this side is really what they're after. Hence the opportunity for a bargain.
Skoosh.
-
Hi
I have mashed my brain trying to work this out, but i think I have sorted it,
I am going to wait till FTDNA have a sale in the middle of April. At least if its a bargain it will feel better if the results dont match anyone. Hopefully they will eventually get a match in a few years.
Ive been doing Family History for 8 years, so im sure I can wait a little longer.
-
Nick, this business is largely driven by folk in the US who may not have a paper trail back to the UK. Getting matches in the US, while interesting, isn't taking them where they want to be. Finding donors this side is really what they're after. Hence the opportunity for a bargain.
Skoosh.
Yeah, I noticed that. No-one who has approached me yet has managed to find their origins outside of America. Still, at least it's fairly easy to upload the Y-DNA results to YSearch.org and Ancestry :)
-
Some very nice American guys paid for mine Nick, it didn't get them very far but has added to their database. I subsequently sent their site a donation. It's interesting stuff, early days yet!
Skoosh.
-
Wonder if i can find an american to pay for mine?
-
I wouldn't mind being approached by Americans looking for their ancestral roots, but they are doing it on 12 and 25 marker matches ::)
I already have links to America..... my maternal grandfather's brother emigrated to the US at the turn of the last century (I'm in touch with his descendants), and his ancestors were early traders in Virginia in the 1600's (both on the maternal line, though).
-
Andreabro
This sounds a bit like Oxford Ancestry's "Tribes of Britain". My brother had this test done and what he got was "possible Mediterranean". Lookin2
-
Milk Man?
-
Nick, this business is largely driven by folk in the US who may not have a paper trail back to the UK. Getting matches in the US, while interesting, isn't taking them where they want to be. Finding donors this side is really what they're after. Hence the opportunity for a bargain.
Skoosh.
Yeah, I noticed that. No-one who has approached me yet has managed to find their origins outside of America. Still, at least it's fairly easy to upload the Y-DNA results to YSearch.org and Ancestry :)
My circumstances precisely, an ironic outcome though; no matches whatsoever with people in the USA or Canada with my surname, but a match 36/37 with a Canadian whos ancestry is from Lincolnshire during the time period when my ancestors migrated there, interestingly he turned out to be the descendant of an illegitimate son of my father's uncle around 1870. No other matches, the world is a lonely place, hope many of my unknown relations were tested at WDYTYA this February.
-
therewasa leveson-gower who moved to america i hope he has his dna listed would make it easier if he did,i have had my exbrotherinlaws step sister ciopying my family tree, i told my mum, her reaction was that she should be tracing her own family name of dannegar, so now i have blocked her.she should only be interested in kevin his exwife,mysisterand yheir children in which case sh should write to them dont you think?but i have found that americans like the idea of being related to our royal family
marcie. a lot of the false heraldry on offer comes from them.
-
"i have found that americans like the idea of being related to our royal family"
rofl. Not this American. My ancestors only got some dignity once they had picked up and moved themselves to the New World.
-
Andreabro
Just in case you have not heard a very short sale on FamilyTreeDNA. Started 6pm Thursday, April 19 concljudes 11.59pm Apr 21. (US time). Lookin2
-
Thanks I ordered this morning
-
There's a website offering a free test to twenty guys named Brown, but they have to be of Scottish or Ulster stock and genuine Broon's.
Skoosh.
-
I am one of those crazy Americans willing to offer a free kit to the right persons. Some of us have a strong desire to learn where we hark from.
Sometimes when you don't get any matches with even a low resolution 12 or 25 Y-DNA marker test it is because of very unusual values only shared by a small group of men---maybe a couple of mutations from long ago and only born by men of a certain surname. This is the case with our group. Before I started the Wheaton project a Wheaton who had tested sat there for 3 years without a single match at any resolution. Now he has eleven!
I have spent 40 years looking to connect Robert Wheaton born about 1606 to his English kinfolk. I have finally found a possibility in a Robert Weedon born in Norfolk 1606. Also many Robert Weetons in Lancashire but none born in 1606. So I am looking for a male Wheaton of any spelling with early ties to either of these counties or surrounding counties especially York or anyone with the markers listed below.
If our Robert turns out to be an imposter by the name of Jones that's okay too!
I have worked with a Wheaton researcher in England, who like I, has spent many years trying to sort these families the traditional way and hitting brick walls. She believed like I that our husbands came from ancestors from Devon. And although we have TWO distinct DNA Wheaton and Wheadon lines in Devon our husbands match neither.
I was able to connect her husband through DNA testing to the Wettons of Staffordshire (many later adopted the name Wheaton)
And then finally we come to this rather robust group of Wheaton men with very unusual values on some of their markers making it possible for me to identify them with a 12 marker test (not usually advisable). If you run into a Wheaton, Weeton, Weedon, Wheadon, Wheeton etc. Please have them contact me. One of our group members is in his nineties and I would like to solve this mystery for him.
And if your are into comparing values I am looking for R1b Haplogroup with these
14 24 16 11 12 (I'll even take 4 out of 5)
DYS 393 = 14
DYS 390 = 24
DYS 19 = 16
DYS 391 = 11
DYS 385a =12
Lest you think DNA testing isn't powerful this is how I finally was able to connect my husband with Robert Wheaton. Took 6 weeks for the test to answer what I couldn't in 37 years. Our paper trees can say anything--- but DNA testing especially Y-DNA is proof positive. We walk around with the encyclopedia of all our ancestors with whom we still carry their DNA.
I was skeptical in the beginning but I am a believer now. I happen to descend from Robert's daughter Hannah Wheaton who lived in Rehoboth, Massachusetts. I am happy to answer specific DNA questions for others. Just send me a message. I have used several testing services available in the US and have experience with mtDNA, autosomal, Y-DNA STR and Y-DNA SNP testing.
The Robert Wheaton cluster is Haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1b3c shorthand L2+
Kelly
-
Kelly, What do you consider to be a small group of men from long ago? I ask because I have taken part in a test with a FTDNA one name project on a surname similar to my own, and have had no response with the surname whatsoever. I have been made well aware of the power of the Y chromosome test as a man in western Canada with a different surname who's ancestors originated in the same area of England where mine migrated to i.e. Lincolnshire has been proved through a combination of DNA test and paper trees to be the descendant of an indiscretion by my grandfather's brother c1870. My family appears to originate in the border area of North Dorset/ South Somerset/ Wiltshire, and my surname is less uncommon in Newfoundland where many Dorset men migrated; however, and I think rather strangely no connection has yet been made between name bearers. Appreciate your advice please.
-
Kelly, What do you consider to be a small group of men from long ago? I ask because I have taken part in a test with a FTDNA one name project on a surname similar to my own, and have had no response with the surname whatsoever. I have been made well aware of the power of the Y chromosome test as a man in western Canada with a different surname who's ancestors originated in the same area of England where mine migrated to i.e. Lincolnshire has been proved through a combination of DNA test and paper trees to be the descendant of an indiscretion by my grandfather's brother c1870. My family appears to originate in the border area of North Dorset/ South Somerset/ Wiltshire, and my surname is less uncommon in Newfoundland where many Dorset men migrated; however, and I think rather strangely no connection has yet been made between name bearers. Appreciate your advice please.
I suggest looking at every possible database you can find beyond FTDNA:
Y-search
Ancestry.com DNA
Sorenson's http://www.smgf.org/pages/ydatabase.jspx
Look for matches of any surname that match your profile.
Also check out this chart for your Hapolgroup:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~geneticgenealogy/yfreq.htm
This will give you an idea of whether some of your values are quite unusual. And thus why you don't get many matches. You can start your own surname Project or work with your Administrator to recruit folks for testing. You have to cast a very wide net. I started my project in Feb 2011 and now have 23 members so it is possible with peristance.
In the case of this particular cluster all of the men would be descended from one man born somewhere between 1200-1600 who "probably" adopted the surname Wheaton or something similar. It is not unusual to have a mutation that is 1 or 2 off the modal--- but when you have several in a particular combination it makes it far less likely that it would happen in the same combination again. So my expert has suggested other than NPEs most any man bearing this signature is probably going to be a Wheaton. You can have a look at my results page from the Wheaton project and FTDNA or on my webpages (I have those tested elsewhere included). I started the page when I started the project and I have had a couple of inquires that found me that way.
If you look at the Robert Wheaton cluster you cans see that all match at 25 markers save one Raines and a Howell. As we move outward more mutations are evident but all clearly related in the time frame between when Robert immigrated in 1636 and now.
Feel free to contact me directly at (*)
Kelly
(*) Moderator Comment: Personal details removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
-
Tha.nks Kelly, I'll give those links a try
-
Good luck Redroger.
Kelly
-
Would just like to add my take - although I personally want to do it to see whether my grandfathers line was from the eastern mediterranean/middle east (we aren't sure where exactly, just rumours) but can't due to their being no known direct male ancestors to us (it was through his mother the connection was supposed to be)...
My boyfriend's family did a DNA test between American, Barbadian and English members of the family, mostly to see if the American branch was connected to the 'nobility' (My boyfriend is next in line for a baronetcy) BUT also to see if rumours in the 1600's that one of the son's was actually not the Baronet's were true... and they were! The baronetcy diverted back to the direct line in the end anyway, but it was interesting for them to find out that (at least) one of the Baronet's in the line was actually a ward/adopted son/foisted on him by an errant wife.
So I suppose it depends on what you're hoping to find. :)
-
Fenifur,
An Autosomal test for you (doesn't need to be a male) should reveal eastern mediterranean/middle eastern background. If you are interested in just ancestry and genealogy I'd do FTDNA's family finder test. If you want Medical info as well do 23andme.com (they only have one test). Once you have results from either you can upload to GEDMATCH.com and find out lots of details. Here's my kit number so you can play around and see what I mean C556953. Try out some of the Ancestry Painting tools.
Since it is your grandfather this will show up in your autosomal DNA. As you will carry approx 25% of his DNA. Hope that helps.
-
Oh that's brilliant thanks! I got an info pack from the Oxford one and thought they would have all aspects covered so it's great to know I can do this! Thanks for loaning me your number too, I'll go have a look. I might see if any of his brothers/sisters are still alive (we have a very large family - not particularly close..) so might be able to get a 50% reading of great granny somewhere! :p
thanks again
Jenny
-
Jenny,
Just got an email from Ancestry.com that they will be offering an autosomal test there soon. If you subscribe to ancestry the into price will be $99. Which is a great deal.
So that's another option. If you find a male in your gradnfather's surname line to test I highly recommend FTDNA.com. They have the largest Y-database in the wrold and the largest number of surname projects. Have you checked to see if they have a project for your grandfather's surname? If thye do you can order at a discount.
Good luck!
Kelly
-
If you take a test with FTDNA you can export the data to Ancestry and other databases that allow imports.
-
FTDNA and 23andme Allow you to download your raw DATA and then you can do with it what you please. People who test with 23andme can upload autosomal data to FTDNA for a fee. When you get your data from a Y-DNA test there's just a value for however many markers you test usually between 12-111. So not much data.
However an autosomal test involves values for 700,000-900,0000 SNPs or more. So it would take something in the order of 25,000 pages to print out the info (not recommended). You just keep it in a zip file and use various tools to examine the data.
For Y-DNA there are sites like Y-search where anyone can upload data and compare. There's also Ancestry.com where you can manually enter your data if you are a subscriber.
To my knowledge neither 23andme or ancestry allows uploads of data from other companies. There are third party sites like GEDMATCH.com that host tools and data for free (they take donations) There are also medically based free sites that will help you explore your info. FTDNA tends not to report values for the genes with medical information.
Hope that helps.
-
Ancestry allow you to import DNA data - I've done mine :) You have to enter it manually, though, as you say.
-
s
?urely this only works if your ancestors or other relatives of you ancestors have sent in samples too.?
marcie ??? 8)
-
s
?urely this only works if your ancestors or other relatives of you ancestors have sent in samples too.?
marcie ??? 8)
Correct Marcie, my DNA is on file but only one taker so far in 15 months.
-
Marcie & RedRodger,
Lots more Americans taking the DNA plunge than in the UK so its a numbers game. For Y-DNA matches WILL match if two men with the same paternal DNA match---when I started the Wheaton project there had been a Wheaton out there waiting two years without a single match now he's got 12 thanks to our project.
As to autosomal DNA. Lots more matches possible but again you'll need more UK folks to test to get matches---except with all the Americans who hark from the UK fairly recently. Ancestry.com's new offerings may bring a lot more folks into testing and that could be helpful to us all. If you are an ancestry.com customer they are offering a $99 introductory kit which is a great deal. You have to sign up and its a short time offer.
-
My experience has been this: I joined a surname project with FTDNA as did several others with my surname. Some of them in USA have made links with people who share the surname. I have made one link, a 36/37 Y chromosome match with a man in Canada with a different surname. However, his ancestors had lived in Lincolnshire since at least 1538, while my line only got there with my 2XGGfather c1795, The connection must have happened between then and 1899, when co-incidentally both our fathers were born. We have now established the link was due to an indiscretion by my grandfather's older brother in 1869. DNA certainly works, it just gets frustrating, my relative had waited for several years before the link was made, when we were searching it was a peculiar feeling as neither of us knew if our surnames matched our bloodline, a little disconcerting to say the least.
-
If you didn't wish for Nicola to include any info from your tree then I think she would have happily accepted that. You only had to make your feelings known. She is doing a family tree which includes her nephews and not the Loquet family. I think it's pretty amazing what she has achieved and also managed to find newspaper articles and old photos for almost every branch/person. She has even managed to get in touch with my sons' twin aunts, which is quite an achievement as their mum changed her name and registered the girls' birth herself under that name.
-
Isn't the problem that it only works with the male line?
My brick wall is my paternal g.grandfather, but as his two sons didn't have any children only his daughter did, the next males are my father and two of his siblings. How would DNA testing one of their sons help? Might be a problem there though, only two left and one of the lives in Canada somewhere and one other is incarcerated in USA ::).
Me too. My father and his brother are dead, I have no brothers and my only male cousin is adopted! I think my father's cousins' children are all female too - I have literally no close male relatives, which is incredibly frustrating, as I'm very interested in DNA testing. I've had the Ancestry one done, but the Y is closed to me.
-
I had my results last week from ancestry and ftdna.Re ancestry results. I emailed one person and they've got back. The match was thought to be with one particular name, she's got 2 with that name and i've got one, they atre in a closeby area but not the same one. We may find a link however. I emailed someone else but no answer and it s nearly a week but may be they've gone away. I got an email from someone else who put their data into ged match. Ged match data suggesting a more recent link .Again can't see a link but is possible. Both maternal grand parents were illigitimate. On gran's line we know the mothers name and can go back. Problem is we don't know the father. On grandfather's name we think we know the line(name change) but his mother first name only, bridget and catholic. I was doing some genertion charts as that's how the results come suggesting you have a match in between generations and doing this makes it easier. Doing those charts really bring it home how many names are missing. The person concerned also ha a couple of gaps in his. Waiting in for delivery of 2 dna kits ordered the and they tried to deliver tuesday, wow ancestry and dhl that was quick.Mom and sister in law are going to be tested and data crunched into gedmatch. Ged match is interesting when you get the hang of the site. I'm hoping there are enough similar matches between me and mom to give us a clue as to what line we are matching with.
-
Wow what a long thread :o
Its interesting to see the thoughts of people from even a few years ago. If I am honest I would say I would have been in the '' oh its expensive and I'm not really sure and anyway there is no-one in the pool'' camp.
Now I am excitedly certain of a positive outcome but it is still, to me, an expensive proposition.
thank you everyone for a good read :)