RootsChat.Com
Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: RedMystic on Wednesday 27 April 11 17:54 BST (UK)
-
Hi to all you great RootsChatters,
I'm not sure if I'm posting on the right board as this includes both a translation and deciphering hand-writing. Please let me know if it should be moved elsewhere.
I've attached a notation made in the front of my 3x great grandfather's Gaelic / English bible. The bible is c.1825 and came to Canada 1883. I'm not sure if my 3x or my 2x great grandfather made the note.
Can anyone tell me what it says. (I didn't do the tracing in black. It occurred sometimes before 1970 when the book came into my mother's possession.)
TX for any help that can be provided.
-
First two lines = I was young and I am now old.
Graham.
-
I think it's Scots Gaelic. It's in the wrong script to be Irish from the older date.
Up to the 50s or 60s people still used the old script.
-
I think it's Scots Gaelic. It's in the wrong script to be Irish from the older date.
Up to the 50s or 60s people still used the old script.
It's definitely Scots Gaelic. Both 2x & 3x grandfathers were from Benbecula.
First two lines = I was young and I am now old.
Graham.
Thanks for the start GR2.
-
3rd. line chan fhaca- did you see
4th line sliochd means seed or descendant.
James
-
when I see a farmer on a threeagossy and a descendent begging bread
( may be completely wrong as I did my bit of Irish in the 1940s/50s. )
-
TX Dulaigh.
It will be interesting to see what this says when all is pieced together.
Are Scottish & Irish Gaelic tremendously different?
-
I did hear a native Irish speaker could converse fluently with a native Scots speaker though there are some differences in the endings and some basic words. They have a common structure and sound shape. Interestingly I met a Welsh speaker in the 70's who learnt English in the Royal Navy and on a courtesy visit to a French warship found he had no difficulty in having a fluent conversation with the Breton sailors in both their native languages; Welsh and Breton. They were both much surprised.
-
Piecing together the translations given above, it must be the Gaelic for Psalm 37, Verse 25: I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
Adrian
-
Adrian perhaps you would be kind enough to transcribe the original text on the book cover in English, as there are some letters difficult to make out.
Regards
James
-
I have just looked out a 1905 Gaelic Bible and Psalm 37, verse 25 reads:
Bha mi og, agus a nis tha mi sean; gidheadh cha'n fhaca mi am firean air a threigsinn, agus a shliochd ag iarraidh arain.
Graham.
-
TX GR2 & others. Here I was hoping we had another bard in the family. Your help is much appreciated.
I did hear a native Irish speaker could converse fluently with a native Scots speaker though there are some differences in the endings and some basic words. They have a common structure and sound shape. Interestingly I met a Welsh speaker in the 70's who learnt English in the Royal Navy and on a courtesy visit to a French warship found he had no difficulty in having a fluent conversation with the Breton sailors in both their native languages; Welsh and Breton. They were both much surprised.
That is an interesting observation Dulaigh. I've learned something new today.
-
Thanks Graham,
James
-
Off topic but with reference to the comments about Welsh and Breton -- Welsh, Cornish and Breton all come from the same root, and I can certainly see a lot of similar words in Welsh and Cornish.
-
The original handwriting:-
Bha me oig agus tha mi nis shean. Chan fhaca mi firean air a threigoan agus a sliochd aig iairridh arain.
Modern Irish gaelic would be:-
Bhi me og agus anois ta me aosta ach ni fhaca me riamh an firean a threigean na a shliocht ag iarraidh a gcoda.
-
The original handwriting:-
Bha me oig agus tha mi nis shean. Chan fhaca mi firean air a threigoan agus a sliochd aig iairridh arain.
Modern Irish gaelic would be:-
Bhi me og agus anois ta me aosta ach ni fhaca me riamh an firean a threigean na a shliocht ag iarraidh a gcoda.
Interesting comparison Dulaigh. Can I assume they mean precisely the same?
I'm sad to say there are no Gaelic speakers left in the family branch that came to Canada, though I do recall some old drinking songs my grandpa taught me - much to my grandma's dismay. I wonder if they'll come in handy when I visit the Outer Hebrides this summer. ;D
-
I did hear a native Irish speaker could converse fluently with a native Scots speaker though there are some differences in the endings and some basic words. They have a common structure and sound shape. Interestingly I met a Welsh speaker in the 70's who learnt English in the Royal Navy and on a courtesy visit to a French warship found he had no difficulty in having a fluent conversation with the Breton sailors in both their native languages; Welsh and Breton. They were both much surprised.
Not sure that I fully agree on the Irish / Scots bit. The accent is very different, for a native Irish Gaelic speaker it is easier to understand written Scots Gaelic (SG) than the spoken version. Donegal Irish (NW Ireland) is closer to SG than any of the other Irish dialects. Anyway, the Scots are just an Irish tribe that left 15 or so centuries ago (Scotus= Irish in Middle Ages e.g. Johannes Duns Scotus Eriugena ;) )
Breton and Cornish are closer than Breton and Welsh, Manx fits in also, but all, including Gaelic, share roots e.g. a river is abhann in Irish, abona in Old English, aven in Breton, awin in Manx.
My father was a fluent Irish speaker and years ago at a funeral in the Hebrides (Barra) had difficulty in conversing in Gaelic with an old man there. He did say that the guy had no teeth was not a help!
K.
-
He did say that the guy had no teeth was not a help!
K.
"no teeth" ... Too funny Kerryman. ;D TX for the insight though.
Just out of curiosity, I heard on the news today that the Queen spoke Irish at a function in Ireland yesterday. Would that be Irish Gaelic or something else?
Also, I heard that the census in the UK asked people to indicate if they understand and / or speak Scots. Would that be Gaelic or something else?
-
The Queen started her speech with a few words in what we in Ireland would call Irish (in the English language) or Gaeilge (in the Irish language).
People outside Ireland might call it Irish Gaelic, to distinguish it from Scots Gaelic.
The Irish language within Ireland is not usually referred to as 'Gaelic'.
-
Thanks for the clarification dublin1850. Fascinating things one learns.
-
Her Majesty's pronunciation was pretty good too. A hugely appreciated gesture in a truly historic visit.
-
Her Majesty's pronunciation was pretty good too. A hugely appreciated gesture in a truly historic visit.
+1
HM opened her address with just a few words of Irish, 'A Uachtarain, a chairde' roughly 'President, friends.'
As Dub 1850 said it was a hugely appreciated gesture. Great visit, pity security was so tight. Dublin was brought to a halt traffic wise for hours on end, almost no complaint. 99.999999% of the people wished her a great visit and were quite content to be a bit discommoded. Sadly a protest by about 30 hooligans got too much media attention, ironically they were wearing Liverpool and Manchester United football jerseys ::)
Rs
K.
-
Precision:- Not exactly as the English Bible versions are slightly different. Consider "Yet HAVE I NOT SEEN the rightous forsaken nor his seed begging bread" versus "Yet I HAVE NOT SEEN the rightous forsaken or their children begging bread." Still, the wisdom of years can assimilate these discrepancies. Bread=Aran can replace gcoda. Harking back the Chan was also used in Irish. You could show the written copy to the Isles people who may recognise local vernacular.
-
Hi all. I was working on tying up a few loose ends. I checked back to this thread and noted that I hadn't added a closing thank you for all your help. Hopefully better late than never, please know that your efforts & insights are very much appreciated.