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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: treslade on Wednesday 27 April 11 11:54 BST (UK)
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I have got back to Robert M Charles on the 1891 census in Rathen, E Aberdeenshire.
He is listed as 12 yrs old, birthplace Aberdeen.
Head of the house is James Sim (36? yrs) farm worker, wife Lizzie Sim 33 yrs, other Sim children are James 8 yrs, George 6 yrs John 4 yrs and William 1 yrs.( youngest 4 born in Rathen, eldest like Robert M Charles born in Aberdeen).
Robert Mutch Charles marries in 1900 in the district of St Nicholas, to Jeannie MacFarlane.
He says his father is Robert Charles - farm servant ( does not state desceased), gives his mother as Elizabeth Park, afterwards wife of James Sim - farm worker.
I cannot find a marriage of Lizzie/Elizabeth Park to Robert Charles nor a birth for Robert M Charles, nor Robert M Charles aged about 2 in the 1881 census, I searched Scotland, England and Wales, although I expect he is in Scotland.
I am new to research in Scotland, and although learning fast I am keeping my fingers crossed that some kind person will steer me to other records.......
Thank you
Lee
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Hi Lee
It may be that Elizabeth Park was not married to Robert Charles, farm servant and your Robert Mutch Charles was registered as Robert Park at birth perhaps? There is one birth in Aberdeenshire in 1878 for a Robert Park, not sure if this might be connected to your Robert.
When did Elizabeth marry James Sim? Have you found her in 1881?
Monica :)
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Likely Elizabeth was already married to James Sim by 1881:
James Sim 26, farm servant b. Pitsligo
Lizzie Sim 22 b. New Deer
Mary Sim 3 Months b. Rathen
Address: Bridgefoot, Rathen
Monica
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hi Lee :)
there is a robert mutch(GSon) age 2 living with a park family in 1881
there is also a marriage james sim and elizabeth mutch 1880 st nicholas aberdeen :-\
george park married mary mutch 1860 new pitsligo aberdeen(IGI)
is mary park(nee mutch) the mother of elizabeth sim(nee mutch/later park) ?
ev
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Just found that entry in 1881 Ev - does look a possibility for Robert in 1881 doesn't it:
George Park 37, Mattress Maker b. Tyrie
Mary Park 43 b. New Deer
William Park 9
Mary Park 7
Robert Park 5
George Park 1
Robert Mutch 2
Address: 10 Links St, Aberdeen St Nicholas
From what you have found Ev, likely Elizabeth was also illegitimate, mother Mary Mutch? Couldn't find anything in New Deer under Park for Elizabeth's birth.
Monica
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Possible birth for Elizabeth on IGI:
Elizabeth MUTCH b. 28 DEC 1858 in New Deer, Aberdeen - mother Mary MUTCH
Added: It may also be that Robert's birth was registered with the surname of MUTCH. There are at least 3 births registered in Aberdeen City for a Robert Mutch between 1878-9.
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just found that as well , Monica
the 1861 census might give us some clues
ev
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This is the closest I can see for 1861 on the transcript:
Mary Park 22, agr. lab's wife b. New Deer
Elisabeth Barnet 2, daughter in law (step daughter?) b. New Deer
Address: 95 High Street New Pitsligo
First born daughter to George and Mary was a Margaret b. May 1861 in New Pitsligo.
Monica
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Elizabeth's surname keeps on changing on the censuses! From 1871:
George Park 27 Agricultural Labourer b. Tyrie
Mary Park 30 b. New Deer
Elisabeth Duncan 12 daughter b. New Deer
Margaret Park 9
John Park 5
Alexr Park 3
Isabella Park 1
Address: Ladiesford, Tyrie
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Hi Monica and Ev,
Thank you so much for the help, I put some more money on ScotlandsPeople - £21 went by 1 o'clock today, I don't think I'm using the site the best way........anyway so the first thing I looked at this afternoon was Robert Park, he was the son of Charles Low and Margaret Park, so not him.
Then I looked up Robert Mutch in 1878, and I think it must be him, it says;
Robert Charles Mutch - illigitimate, mother Elizabeth Mutch, Domestic servant, 10 Links Street, Aberdeen.
On Robert's marriage entry it says Robert Mutch Charles, father William Charles.
Do you think William Charles was his father?
I am so grateful for your help in finding Robert, I will try and find a William Charles.
Thank you again,
Lee
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10 links street is the address for the parks family on the 1881 census that Monica found :)
i'm sure you have found the correct robert mutch/charles
ev
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That's great, Lee, as Ev says, sounds like you have found his birth entry :)
Was Robert's father on his marriage entry Robert or William Charles (you've mentioned both). It can be hard to find details of reputed father on an illegitimate birth.
I've only looked at the 1881 census, shortly after your Robert was born. Using an approximate age around the age of Elizabeth Mutch/Park's age (b. 1857 +/- 5yrs) brings up only one entry in Aberdeenshire for a Robert Charles:
William Charles 53, Crofter (Of 22 Ac: Of Which 12 Arable)
Margret Charles 54
Robert Charles 21 b. Rathen
Mary Charles 14
William Charles 10
Address: South Claystyles, Rathen
Hard to be certain about possible father though unless you are able to confirm anything elsewhere :-\
Monica
Added: Some tips from others about using Scotlands People here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,43916.0.html
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Hi Monica and Ev,
Monica and Ev,
I looked up the birth of Elizabeth Mutch, mother Mary Mutch - domestic servant, Elizabeth illegitimate of ? Hill, New Deer, no father again.........and I think no chance of finding one for her either.
I did think Robert Charles 21 yrs was the best bet for a father for Robert born 1878 as well.......Robert Mutch Charles gives his father in 1900 as Robert Charles, farm servant ( the William was a mistake - I was reading the wrong line)...........Robert went from being Robert Mutch in 1881 to Robert M Charles in 1891, so his mother and step father using Charles for his surname, as he did.......I will have to think hard of a link that may tie the older Robert Charles closer as father......mmmm
Thank you so much for your help,
Lee
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hi,
I looked up the marriage of Elizabeth Mutch to James Sim, just in case it showed a father, it just says Mary Hutch, wife of George Park......but they also married at 10 Links St, no church?
Lee
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In those times Lee, it was common place to marry at home, normally bride's home in many cases :) Church weddings as we know them today were a 20th C thing!
Monica
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Thank you Monica, I have learnt something new about Scottish weddings..........
Lee
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Hi, I think I've found Mary in the 1851 census, at home with her parents & siblings. They're at Backhill of Weetingshill, New Deer. Head of the household is Robert Mutch. His wife is Isabella. I expect this Weetingshill is where Elizabeth was born!
flst
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flst....
Thank you for that, Backhill is the missing word, all I could make out was the hill....I will look and print off the census returns in the morning....and look for their marriage.
I shall have to buy more credits, I used another 90 this afternoon...........chasing an Annie Douglas born about 1900, when you know a person should be at a place in time, it's very hard to stop checking every Annie Douglas.........I wish the English certificates had the same information that the Scottish ones do, when you find the right one, you know it's the right one. I have learnt that I need to buy a better map of Aberdeenshire........
Thank you again, Lee
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Re the Charles family. This is the inscription on their gravestone at Rathen:
Erected by the family in loving memory of their parents WILLIAM CHARLES farmer Dunshillock, Mintlaw d. 19 Feb. 1897 aged 69; MARGARET BURNETT d. 14 July 1918 aged 91. Their daus. JANE d. Sept. 1866 aged 10, MARGARET d. 1 Mar. 1919 aged 55. Their son WILLIAM d. 21 July 1928 aged 57.
Graham.
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Hi Graham,
Thank you so much for the information, I would not have had this without your contact....as my grandchildren's surnames are Charles I will try very hard to find a link to this family, find out what happened to Robert Charles and see if there is a clue there.........
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Some map links that might help:
- Aberdeenshire and Banffshire c. 1878-1883 http://maps.nls.uk/os/view/?sid=74400900 - zoom option on the left works well!
- Parish Maps - www.scotlandsfamily.com/parish-maps.htm
- Counties Map - www.scotlandsfamily.com/county-map.htm
Monica
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Monica,
Thank you for the links, I looked and printed off the counties of Scotland, I will have to study the other maps, I have found you have to go about finding things in Scotland in a different way, but because all the village names unknown to me, I shall still buy a map.........back to the never ending Charles search.......
Lee
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Mary Mutch was born on 24th November 1838 at Whitehill in the parish of New Deer (New Deer 225/ 0030 0220). Witnesses were “the congregation of Whitehill”. She was living at home in 1841and in 1851 with her parents Robert Mutch and Isabella Shand.
On 30th December 1860 Mary married George Park at New Pitsligo in the parish of Tyrie (New Machar 227/B0 0017). Both were living at New Pitsligo at the time, George was 18 years old and a farm servant and Mary was 22 and a domestic servant. George’s parents were John Park, a crofter, and Margaret Jones. The witnesses were John Park and William Elmslie .
Mary and George had 8 or 9 children .
Margaret c.1862, John c.1866, Alexander c.1868, Isabella c.1870, William c.1872, Mary c.1874, Robert c.1876 and George c.1880.
There was also an Elizabeth, surnamed variously Barnet or Duncan, who may have been an illegitimate daughter of Mary herself and who was born c. 1859. I believe she was the mother of your Robert although I haven't gone that far yet.
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Hi Jim,
Thank you for the information about Mary Mutch, Elizabeth was her daughter, I viewed her birth details and it just gives her mothers details and no father, and Robert Charles Mutch was her son, When he is born he is Robert Charles Mutch, in the 1861 census he is with Mary and George as grandson Robert Mutch, in the 1871 census he is with his mother Elizabeth/Lizzie and her husband James Sim, as Robert Mutch Charles, which is the way his names are when he marries.
So before I try to trace Mary Mutch and her parents, I am trying to find the link between the surname Charles, and why he moved the names around.....
Thank you so much, Lee
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I will have to think hard of a link that may tie the older Robert Charles closer as father......mmmm
There is a possibility that the family might feature in the records of the parochial board, if they have survived. The parochial boards were set up in 1845 to deal with the poor of the parish, and if an application was made on behalf of an illegitimate child, or a single mother with an illegitimate child, they sometimes went to great lengths to find out who the father was and to make him pay for the child's maintenance.
Try Aberdeen City Archives. http://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/LocalHistory/archives/loc_ArchivesHomePage.asp
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There is a chance that the kirk session minutes for the parish would tell you the father of Elizabeth Mutch.
Graham.
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Hi Graham,
Would you think there may be a record in the same way for Robert Mutch/RobertCharles Mutch/Robert Mutch Charles in the same way?
Are these records kept at the kirk/church where a baptism was held........I have never looked at these records because the other records of birth death and marriage are so detailed......would I find these kirk/church reocrds at the county record office or the kirk/church themselves?
Thank you, Lee
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The minutes of the kirk sessions (where they survive, and mostly they do) are at the National Archives in Edinburgh. They are all digitised, so when you go there you look at them on line. At the moment they can't be read online anywhere else. Later in the year they are to be made available in other archives in Scotland, but not available from home. I will be in the Archives at some point during the summer, but maybe someone else will be going sooner. As for the later birth, there might be something, but as time went on, the sessions had less and less to say about illegitimate births, so it is not so likely you'd find anything about it.
Graham.
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[quote author=treslade link=topic=529208.msg3839935#msg3839935 date=1304038464
So before I try to trace Mary Mutch and her parents, I am trying to find the link between the surname Charles, and why he moved the names around.....
Thank you so much, Lee
When you do get to tracing Mary Mutch and her parents, you will find her family here...
http://www.mutches.com/fl.php?fl=R009
I come from a long line of Mutches and the webmaster of this site is a relative of mine. It's a very useful site.
fruitcake
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Thank you Fruitcake....
I had a little look at the site and I have already started to look at Mary's Family, it's a great site and it's a great help....
Lee
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You're welcome, Lee, I've found it very helpful for my Mutch family.
fruitcake
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Hi Fruitcake,
If I get any other information that is not on the tree I will let you know........I must shut down and get some sleep, glad to know others are still up and searching,
Lee
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Thanks, Lee, but it would be a good idea to email any new info to the webmaster at mutches.com, his name's Harry and he'll be more than pleased to add it to the website.
I often stay up too late too...it's addictive this genealogy stuff, isn't it?! ;)
fruitcake
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friutcake,
I am doing as much as I can before my eyes give up......and yes, I am addicted....
Lee