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Research in Other Countries => Other Countries => Topic started by: originQuest on Sunday 24 April 11 23:49 BST (UK)
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Dear all,
I thinking that this christening may be of a relation of mine. How can I find more out about this family, i.e. father's occupation, when the parents married, any siblings of John, why and how long the family where in India?
Your advice and help is much appreciated.
John O'Brien b 4 Dec, baptised 11 Dec 1853, Kurachee, Bombay, India
Parents ?Patrick and Catherine O'Brien
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I have found the following about the birth/baptism of your John O'Brien :
John O'BRIEN
Parents: Patrick, Pte., 64th; Catherine
As you can see the Father - Patrick - was a Private in the 64th Regiment (2nd Staffordshires). Further research on this can be carried out at the India Office, Family History Research
RBcabal
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Further to my last posting - there is a Private Patrick O'Brien of the 64th listed on the Indian Mutiny Nominal Rolls on the Asplin site
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Wow, thank you for this information.
I need to find out more.
Now, from John's marriage certificate in 1882, Patrick O'Brien is recorded as being deceased and a ships carpenter. Does this occupation fit with the job described?
And mutiny? Isn't that when you rebel in the army?
This is getting very interesting.
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The mutiny mentioned -
http://www.qdg.org.uk/pages/1857-to-1858-106.php
Also worth checking -
http://www.dnw.co.uk/medals/resources/medalrolls/indianmutiny/
( There are 16 entries under the name of Patrick O'Brien - two of them in the 64th - all you have to do is decide which one is yours!!! :-\ )
Tony
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Oh wow, so does this suggest that my ancestor was revolting or helping stop the revolt?
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If he was in the army he would have been fighting to quell the revolt.
In the list in the link I've given, one of the Patricks died in 1858, the other in 1859. How does this fit with the history you have?
Tony
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The history as I know it (or discovered it).
1911 Census, my ancestor John O'Brien states born Kurrachee, India mid 1850s in the Bombay Presidency. He says the same in 1901 and 1891 (minus Bombday Presidency). I can't find him in 1881/1871/1861.
He worked as a ships carpenter, and married in 1882; there his father is recorded as Patrick O'Brien, deceased a ships carpenter. So not sure if this does fit?
What do you think? My knowledge of the military and navy is limited so not sure if I am going on the right tracks. Patrick's grandson was a ships carpenter in the merchant navy for many years and travelled all over the world.
What do you think ... connection?
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I can't really see how a ship's carpenter would end up fighting in the Indian Mutiny in the 64th Reg of Foot. However, stranger things have happened.
The birth of John, born Kurrachee, (now Karachi, Pakistan) does fit with the ship's carpenter side of things. Karachi was/is a major port in what was India, but is now Pakistan.
Unfortunately (for you!), Patrick O'Brien does seem to be a very common name, as you can see just from the medals list at the link on my previous post. I think you'd have to do some more research before you can assume that Patrick joined the army in India or elsewhere. The fact that his son and grandson carried on the trade suggests to me that Patrick carried on with his trade. The big question is "what happened to him between the birth of John and before John's marriage?"
I'd suggest an intensive search, possibly worldwide (!) for any death record for Patrick. As a ship's carpenter he would have gone wherever the ship went.
Tony
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Oh this is getting difficult lol! I am not sure what to say ... well, I think I can assume that the inital baptism of John O'Brien in 1853 does belong to me. The date, location, name and father's name fit. Of course, the father's occupation does not.
Are there any army records on ancestry I can use to search further ... or make this search easier? Not sure where to begin to move on from this.
And what of Catherine, the mother and wife?!
Oh my head ...
Peter
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I am not sure what to say ... well, I think I can assume that the inital baptism of John O'Brien in 1853 does belong to me. The date, location, name and father's name fit. Of course, the father's occupation does not.
Actually, I would have thought that with John being a ship's carpenter, and you say that his marriage cert states that his father Patrick was also a ship's carpenter, then the only thing that doesn't fit is the army career, which would suggest that the army career is the red herring! What makes you think that he joined the army - given his occupation on the marriage cert of John?
As I said earlier, the medal rolls at http://www.dnw.co.uk/medals/resources/medalrolls/indianmutiny/ actually give 16 Patrick O'Briens listed as being involved in quelling the Mutiny. All this proves is just how common the name was/is. Surely it's equally possible that your Patrick O'Brien was in no way involved with the army and carried on his duties as carpenter until his death, sometime before his son's marriage. If you have no proof of a military career, ie family records etc, the only thing you are going on is an extremely common name, and the India connection. Sons often carried on the trade of their father and John, and his son, were also ship's carpenters.
Kurachee/Karachi would not have been an uncommon port of call for shipping and, dare I say, it was not uncommon for men to take native women for wives. The women would take an Anglicised name upon converting to Christianity and this could also explain the lack of any prior knowledge of the wife - and how she came to be in Kurachee. This is speculation and there to be proven or not. The idea is to get you to think of all possibilities! That's what makes genealogy so addictive!!!
Oh my head ...
The headache will go away - the problem may take a little longer! ;D
Tony
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Thank you Tony for your kind advice and support. I think I have caused some confusion ... when you 'quote' me, I was saying that the army occupation is the red herring. Is that not how it reads? It is late here and I am tired trying to solve this puzzle I have, so excuse me if I am not making sence.
So, all I do have to go on is the name, and location ... not a good starting point! Ha.
It is an interesting and happy though that I may have Indian blood in my viens. Very interesting indeed.
I will keep you informed here.
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It is late here and I am tired
Same here! I think I misread your "red herring" as the ship carpenter when you meant the army.
It is an interesting and happy though that I may have Indian blood in my viens. Very interesting indeed.
TV personality Alistair McGowan had to contend with the same issue so you're in good company!!
Tony
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Hi again,
Due to a range of reasons, I've not taken on any further research on this line but I would be interested in saying more.
Considering what was written here, are we suggesting that the baptism found in 1853 ISN'T for my ancestor John (1853-1923)?
One step at a time.
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Hi again,
I'm still not much further forward with this research and would like to get a bit more info on the time of this family in India - I've even looked on the Crewe lists for the Merchant Navy for John O'Brien, but can't find anything.
Would anyone be able to help?
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Can you confirm that the 1911 John O Brien 58 joiner Middlesborough ,born Kurracee,is your relative please.
If this is correct, the John O Brien Catholic baptism by Father Andrew,,,in church,,,at Kurachee Bombay India 11th Dec 1853,is the same person.
Father PaCk O Brien,mother Catharine. 64th Reg.
As regards your query over the fathers occupation,this Patrick was a soldier,after discharge did joinery
Have you traced whereabouts of his regiment.
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Hi Brionne,
Thank you for your reply and time to look into this - Yes, I can confirm that the John O'Brien in 1911 living in Middlesbrough with his wife Margaret aged 58, a joiner joiner is my relative ... he seems aged does vary from c 1851-1857 it seems over the years, and he seems to appear in the trade union papers in 1910s, but again his age varies.
With this, yes, it seems correct that his baptism is the one on 11th December 1853.
The trouble I'm having is trying to find out more about Patrick and his occupation and what became of them before and after John's birth.
Thank you
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Family Search have this birth, possible further child for Patrick and Catharine.
Father Patrick O Brien mother Catharine O Brien
Daughter, Ellen O Brien.
Born 11th June 1856
Baptised 21 June 1856 at Belgaum Bombay.
Possible marriage,
Patrick O Brien to Catherine McMullan 15 March 1847,Newtonards Down Ireland.
Grooms father,Patrick.
brides father, Patrick McMullan. vol 9, page 194.
There is a blog on here british-genealoghy.com which mentions someone having 64th Reg family members.
Regiments.org have 64th leaving Ireland for India in 1848.
Forces War Records paid site,have two Patrick O Brien DEATHS both 1857 in 64th Regiment.North
Staffordshires. [this has already been mentioned]
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Hopefully one of you Irish experts will check out the marriage, am waiting to be told have got it wrong.Difficult when no idea where this guy the father Patrick O Brien hails from.
As the son John O Brien had a lifelong marriage with a girl from Co Down ref[1911] just wonder if this is where the family originate from. Just a quess
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Hi again Brionne - thank you for pushing this.
Hmmm lots to think about.
I too had thought of Ellen, born 1856 - what is the father's occupation there? Would we be able to find out more about her?
John's first grandchild was born in 1915, and amended the certificate after registration as there had been some mistakes - she was called Ellen!
In our family, the tradition is that out of Margaret and John, one was the north, the other from the south - as Margaret was from Down, that would suggest John was from the south ... assuming that this is correct. Still, I don't know.
RE The 1857 deaths - I admit that military records from this time confuse me. Also, I'm apprehensive to have the 1857 deaths as my relative, due to the fact that when John married in 1882, he said he father was deceased but that he was a ships' carpenter, like himself.
Also, not sure why I can't find John on any of the crewe lists on FindMyPast. Are they not fully uploaded?
Thank you again!
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Could this be Ellen? The sister mentioned here?
British India Office Ecclesiastical Returns - Deaths & Burials Transcription
Learn more
Print transcription .
First name(s) Ellen R
Last name O'Brien
Birth year 1857
Death date 17 Aug 1883
Death year 1883
Age 26
Burial date 17 Aug 1883
Place Lucknow
Presidency Bengal
Archive Reference N-1-184
Folio -
Page 198
Catalogue Description Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, : 1713-1948
Record set British India Office deaths & burials
Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers)
Subcategory Deaths & burials
Collections from United Kingdom
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A possible remarriage of the mother?
British India Office Ecclesiastical Returns - Marriages Transcription
Learn more
Print transcription .
First name(s) Catherine
Last name O'Brien
Marriage year 1868
Marriage date 6 Oct 1868
Spouse's first name John Alexander
Spouse's last name Fox
Place Nellore
Presidency Madras
Groom's age 33
Bride's age 43
Groom's father's first name George Reuben
Groom's father's last name Fox
Bride's father's first name Thomas
Bride's father's last name Ward
Catalogue description Madras ecclesiastical records, omissions and corrections, 1777-1884, :
Archive reference N-2-8
Folio number 35
Entry number -
Record set British India Office marriages
Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers)
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from United Kingdom
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May have it now,follow this line. Catherine OBrien married a Dennis Crowley somewhere.
Ref Family Search.
1871 John OBrien 17 Joiner Brit Subj East Indies
Ellen OBrien 15 Domestic Brit Subj East Indies.
Head, Dennis Crowley 47 b Ireland
Wife, Catherine Crowley 40 born Ireland.
Margaret Crowley 15 born East Indies.
Middlesborough Durham.
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THANK YOU!
How on earth did you find this? I've searched for years, as have countless others. Wow, what a skilled detective you are!
This seems to be them, without doubt really.
Wow, thank you again!
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Family Search has most of the British India Office BMDs now,its a question of putting the right stuff in the boxes. Will post the reference later.
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I since discovered Catherine and Denis and daughter Margaret living in Port Clarence in 1881 ...
Also, that daughter Ellen married a Patrick Martin and that Margaret married a John Fane (using the census to confirm birthdates). However, most of it seems to be confirmed by Ellen's obituary:
Daily Gazette for Middlesbrough December 3, 1894
FUNERAL OF MRS PATRICK MARTIN AT MIDDLEBROUGH.-On Saturday, the body of Mrs Martin, wife of Councillor Patrick Martin, of the Whitby Arms, Stockton-street, Middlesbrough, was interred at St. Joseph's Cemetery, North Ormesby. There was a large gathering of relaives and friends from Hartlepool, Darlington and Newcastle, now fewer than 57 cabs and carriages being requisioned to convey the mourners from Stockton-street to the Cemetery. Amongst those present were the husband of deceased, and his children; his brother, Mr Jno. Martin; deceased's brother and sister, Mr J. O'Brien and Mrs. Margaret Fane, Concillor Geo. Martin and Mrs Martin, Mrs John Mardon, Mrs M. Prior, Mr and Mrs J. Harrington, Dr. Webster, and Mrs. Bell. The body was enclosed in an oak coffin mounted with brass, and the hearse was filled with wreaths. The Rev. Fathers Wood and O'Connor performed the funeral service at the cemetery.
I think the MRS. BELL is the Gertrude Bell the famous author. I wonder who the other guests are. Thank you!
Thank you so much!
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This is good news.
Suspect you have no need now of the 1871 info.
Let me know if you do.
Still the question of Patrick O Briens death to nail down.
I found the following which could be the answer.
Death, Patrick O Brien 18 July 1857.
Age 37, Delhi Bengal
Born 1820,
Cause, Cholera.
1st E B Fusiliers,
Ref,N-1-92 Page 1076 Find My Past.
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Thank you for looking for the death of Patrick - I still am rather baffled at how soldiers moved from REgiment to Regiment. It seems there are two deaths in the 64th Foot Reg but on a paying site.
Hmmm, also, I've lost Denis Crowley after 1881 - can you try and spot him please?
Thank you again - the missing piece that has helped so much!
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1881 Dennis Crolley 52 Railway Porter b Ireland
Catherine Crolley 50 b Ireland
Margaret Crolley 21 b India.
Arthur Donnelly 26 Lodger b Ireland.
N.E.R.Cottages Billingham Stockton Durham.
Image shows names spelt this way.
Unable to find them after this date but possible death for Catherine 1884.
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Catherine Burke
in the India, Select Marriages, 1792-1948
Record Image No Image
Text-only collection
Report issue
Name: Catherine Burke
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Widowed
Age: 29
Birth Date: 1829
Marriage Date: 23 Nov 1858
Marriage Place: Belgaum, Bombay, India
Father: Michael Burke
Spouse: Denis Crowley
FHL Film Number: 523917
Cancel
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Thank you for the 1881 - when John, my ancestor married in 1882 he was married from PORT CLARENCE. Ah you have brought it all together. And I didn't know his sister, Ellen, was such a big name in the town. Her funeral was quite impressive and also at the Golden Age of the funeral too.
The marriage entry I posted shows Catherine being the WIDOW of Patrick O'Brien. So he died before 1858 but I'll be honest, I can't work out the occupations etc.
Thank you,
Peter
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The two men Patrick O Brien and Dennis Crowley imagine, were both in India at the same time.
Perhaps in the same regiment 64th [North Staffordshires]
Comes back to investigating both the Patrick O Brien Indian Mutiny deaths already found in 1857.
staffordshireregimentmuseum.com
Most interesting post.
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Than you Brionne - do you have access to the marriage between Catherine Burke and Dennis Crowley?
It states the occupations there but I can't quite work it out.
Yes I must look into the deaths of Patrick O'Brien.
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Unable to find the marriage entry you have posted,which site is it on.
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Oh heck 0 Ancestry or FindMyPast - I fairly confident it was FindMyPast.
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Patrick O'Brien
in the Ireland, Catholic Parish Registers, 1655-1915
Record Image View
Report issue
Name: Patrick O'Brien
Gender: Male
Residence Place: Boherroe
Event Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 29 Nov 1851
Marriage Place: Kilteely and Drumkeen, Limerick, Ireland
Diocese: Cashel and Emly
Spouse: Catherine Birrane
Found this on ancestry.com - could someone see if they can work out the spouses surname please? It doesn't seem to correlate exactly to the transcription.
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No luck with the marriage.
1891 Dennis Crowley, father in law,63 Widower,living on own means born Ireland.
living at 67 Station Rd Middlesbrough Yorks.
John Fane innkeeper wife and Margaret Fane born Bombay.
With 3 servants.
As regards Dennis Crowleys Army Records,there are two men born Ireland, both in East Indies in your time frame,includes Indian Mutiny.
Dennis Crowley born parish, Ross,Clonakilty Cork,1829. PTE 2920 54th Foot then 62nd Foot.served 11 years,medical discharge at Chatham 13 May 1862,due to, cant read ,problems due to seige of Dehli.Intended address,Ireland then America.
Denis Crowley born Suttons New Ross Wexford.1827. PTE 1400 3rd European Inf,then Brit Army 106th as Corporal.served 21 years.Good conduct,discharged Mullingar.11thJune 1866.Intended address,cant read Ireland.
There are no dependants listed on either record,later records usually have some.
If you need to nail down the right guy suggest you post on the Military Board for expert help.
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Hi again Brionne - thank you for this. It seems that Dennis Crowley died in Middlesbrough in 1900, but the age is somewhat out.
RE the fact the Patrick O'Brien was in the 64th Foot, I'm initially thinking Denis Crowley is the one born Ross, Cork in 1829.
Are there such records for Patrick O'Briens at this time? Where did you see these?
Cheers!
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Hi there, just taken out a sub for the Forces War Records sight - what is it that I'm looking for there, in terms of Patrick O'Brien? I've found the medal roles but they don't give any other information other than the year 1857 ...
Thank you.
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Both the Dennis Crowley army records that I listed were found on Find My Past.,with several original detailed images.pay site, was looking for any other details which may be helpful.
My own experience with finding Brit army records in Ireland, has shown that very often the marriages of soldiers take place where ever the regiment is stationed, also children born,[in this case kids already found in India.]
64th left Ireland sometime in 1848.
Sorry have come to a full stop with this,Army Records are quite a specialist field.Good luck ,pleased to have helped.
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Brionne you've been a fantastic help ... I will post on the military board too especially as this seems to prove Patrick wasn't a ship carpenter despite his son's declaration.
I wonder though ... if Patrick O'Brien and Catherine Burke married in Ireland BEFORE 1848 then she was very young and there is a large gap between the marriage and John's birth in 1853. I wonder if Catherine was already out in India with her father John Burke? And they met out there perhaps?
Thank you again.
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The latest newspapers have come on FindMyPast Ireland today.
There are a couple of interesting bits.
Dublin Daily Express 18 November 1857.
A private letter from the wife of a medical officer,dated Burdwan [ India]8th October 1857.
this regarding the awful human suffering subjected to women by the so called,, King of Dehli,,
she says that the English soldiers wanted to catch and hang him outside the Dehli city walls.
Also mentions the great kindness shown to her husband and herself by the Maharajah.
Several reports about 64th homecoming from India.
Belfast Mercury 14 August 1861
The transport conveying the 64th home from India arrived at Spithead,while the Queen was on board the Royal Yacht,when her majesty sent one of her suite to inquire about the health of the officers and men,at the same time expressing a hope that they had had a good passage home.
Brionne.
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Thank you Brionne -lots to think about! Great to have a wider context here too. Must do more reading.
I will keep adding new info here as more I gain it. THANK YOU again!
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A RC burial of a Michael Burke from 1846, A SERGEANT IN THE 9th FOOT REG:
British India Office Ecclesiastical Returns - Deaths & Burials Transcription
name Michael Burke
Birth year 1801 Aged 45
Burial date 30 Apr 1846
Place Meerut
Archive Reference N-1-RC Folio Page 61
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Catherine Birrane
in the Ireland, Catholic Parish Registers, 1655-1915
Record Image View
Report issue
Name: Catherine Birrane
Gender: Female
Residence Place: Boherroe
Event Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 29 Nov 1851
Marriage Place: Kilteely and Drumkeen, Limerick, Ireland
Diocese: Cashel and Emly
Spouse: Patrick O'Brien
Could this be Catherine Burke's marriage - the surname isn't clear on the original image.
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Looking at the name Ellen O'Brien (the mother from 1881 is also named Ellen), and their birth places of Kurrachee, East India, could we ascertain if this family is related to those mentioned here?
Thanks.
Ellen M Obrien 1871 England Census
Aged 24
Relation Head
Gender Female
born East India, Kuracher
Parish Greenwich Ecclesiastical parish St Paul
County Kent England
ED 11
Household schedule number 251 Piece 753 Folio 98 Page Number 39
Household Members
Ellen M Obrien 24
Amelia J Obrien 21
Edmund T Obrien 18
Jane M Obrien 50
Catherine Obrien 47
Mary Farrell 16
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Evening all,
It looks as though the Patrick O'Brien is the one with service number 2611 of 64th Foot (2nd Staffordshire), and who died 15 January 1858 (there is another Patrick O'Brien in this regiment at this time, but as my relative's widow remarried in November 1858, I'm confident this is now the correct one).
Is there a way to find a burial for this Patrick or a death certificate or will please?
And also, any service records?
Thank you.