RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Dave the Walrus on Saturday 23 April 11 08:53 BST (UK)
-
I have chosen 1820 because rail travel was not really available until after this time. I am thinking about people in rural areas, who were not at all wealthy.
I suggest that the bulk of the populace just had to walk. If they worked on farms, I suppose they could get the occasional lift on a farm wagon, or perhaps on market day, they all piled onto the farm cart and off they went.
I think that only the rich could afford a horse or horse and carriage. Travel by stagecoach was also out of the question, as being too expensive.
One idea springs to mind and that is travelling by boat, if you had one, just a simple rowing boat or barge, in the more industrialised areas.
This leads me to the point of all of this and that is I suggest that people tended to be restricted to their own neighbourhood: perhaps their own county, because it all depended upon how far you could walk in a day.
However, people must have made up their minds to go to another area, at times, to look for work perhaps and brought along the whole family later, when they had got settled in.
I got started on all of this because I am having difficulty finding a suitable "time zone" for a Charles Mabbutt from the Wiltshire area round about the year 1825: the nearest suitable matches seem to come from the Gloucester area and that got me wondering if this is a feasible match.
Best wishes,
Dave the Walrus
-
Hi Dave,
I think you just about summed it up, but don't underestimate the distances walked in pre-industrial times.
Today most people wouldn't dream of walking when there are so many faster alternatives, but for most of man's existence it was the only way. After all, our ancestors walked (in stages) from Africa to all parts of the world!
I'm sure it is possible to walk at least 20 miles a day, so within a week you could be well over 100 miles away . . .
Mike.
-
I think twenty miles a day is hugely underestimating the distances travelled on foot by many of our ancestors. Today, most people who do such distances in the UK do it for pleasure and take in a few mountain tops en route. But purposeful walking would take us many more miles than that.
If you look at the lifestyles in other parts of the world, walking long distances - or what we consider to be such - is still a normal part of life.
Agricultural labourers in the days about which you are talking moved from one area to another, following the availability of work. Some of mine wandered back and forth between Yorkshire and Durham, not a huge distance but it does make for some difficulties tracking them down!!
Jen :)
-
Country folk used horses and traps (or horses and carts on farms), and in the bigger cities there were plenty of horse drawn vehicles - horse-drawn buses started in London in 1829. Hay was put down in the streets in posher areas to quieten down the noise.
-
The ordinary ag, lab, would not have been able to purchase, keep and maintain a horse/pony and trap. Not to say that they never travelled considerable distances by shanks's pony and the possibility of getting a lift along the way.
-
Don't overlook canal passenger boats. Coastal passenger traffic was also considerable
-
Also River traffic. In Devon they quite often travelled up and down the river, so I was told by a more experienced librarian at the Record office.
-
Walking or "Shank's Pony" as my Mum always called it, was probably the most common method of transport. Even in the 1930s when George Orwell visited the north for his book "The Road to Wigan Pier" he talked about miners walking several miles to their mine, and then facing a further several miles before they got to the coalface.
My grandfather thought nothing of a 13-mile walk as leisure, so a few miles to and from work would be nothing.
I had about a mile to walk to and from primary school, there, back for lunch, back to school and then home again. Today, I work in a primary school where many children are driven and they complain about a short walk when we go into the town to the church or to explore the environment. I still walk to work, about 1.5 miles and most of my car-owning colleagues think I'm mad.
-
Hi Everybody,
I think you are right and that a 20 mile walk per day would be quite feasible. I had been basing my idea upon the march that a soldier could do, say in Napoleonic times, which is said to have been about 10 to 12 miles per day, but of course this was probably for a large body of men and involved "waiting" for supply wagons, so that they would not lag behind.
When we lived in Scotland, I forced myself and my boys to go for walks. A walk of 2 miles there and two miles back was standard for us and I know that all of our ancestors would fall about laughing at this and I can almost hear the jokes that they would make about it.
These people must have been much more fit than us.
Dave
-
In December 1778, my gggg-grandfather was discharged from the army and his pay included 12 days to walk home from Providence, Rhode Island to Topsham, Maine - a distance of about 225 miles. So, in the winter, on bad roads, a young man was expected to walk about 18-20 miles per day.
-
Think about how all of those armies got around, mostly on foot! Probably the most extreme, and famous, example is King Harold's army having to march back from the battle of Stamford Bridge near York to face the Normans near Hastings. Carrying all their gear, and possibly with wounds. Few of them would be on horseback.
It wasn't just horses and boats that people would use as transport - there was also the humble donkey (I think they use them in the Canterbury Tales?) which more, but by no means all, people would have been able to afford. I've seen pictures of handcarts being used too, for moving goods about, and no doubt a child or infirm person could have had a ride on one of those.
-
Some haulage details for Manchester here; http://www.manchester-family-history-research.co.uk/new_page_22.htm
-
Have a wander round this site, especially the farming section. http://www.essex-country-life.co.uk/coaches.htm
-
James Clegg, a north Derbyshire doctor & non-conformist minister in the early - mid - 1700s details visits to patients & members of the congregation in his diaries.
Sometimes he was able to use one of the farm horses, but most journeys were on foot.
He thought nothing of visiting a farm 5 or 6 miles away for a chat & a prayer before lunch and then another a similar distance in the opposite direction in the afternoon. This sort of routine would happen several times a week.
Off topic, but one intriguing entry reads " we saw at Derby a rhinocerous and live crocodile".
-
Last year I went on a tour of the Georgian theatre in Richmond & was told that the actors would walk huge distances - I can't remember exactly but it was something like 100 miles in 3 days, with a performance on the evening of the third day.
-
Hi Everybody,
Thank you for all of the posts, with a special thank you to Youngtug for the site. My wife is Portuguese and when we got chatting about it, she said more or less the same thing: they all walked, or hopped on the back of the ox cart.
I suspect that many "gentlemen" were fortified by the prospect of a drink in pubs along the way. Perhaps they used them as staging posts. ;D
Best wishes,
Dave
-
The ordinary ag, lab, would not have been able to purchase, keep and maintain a horse/pony and trap. Not to say that they never travelled considerable distances by shanks's pony and the possibility of getting a lift along the way.
Many farmers and labourers had horses and carts to help move things around on the farm. When my grandmother got a job in domestic service in 1883, she travelled from near Ipswich in Suffolk to the West side of London in a horse and cart. The journey there took 2 days. Horses were working tools in those days, and not so much a toy for the daughters of rich men, so they were cheaper to purchase and keep.
-
The ordinary ag, lab, would not have been able to purchase, keep and maintain a horse/pony and trap. Not to say that they never travelled considerable distances by shanks's pony and the possibility of getting a lift along the way.
Many farmers and labourers had horses and carts to help move things around on the farm. When my grandmother got a job in domestic service in 1883, she travelled from near Ipswich in Suffolk to the West side of London in a horse and cart. The journey there took 2 days. Horses were working tools in those days, and not so much a toy for the daughters of rich men, so they were cheaper to purchase and keep.
Farmers would have owned horses,you couldn't have worked a farm without them, but not labourers, not on the earnings from labouring on farms. If you owned a horse then it would have to earn its keep, and make a profit. Which is why my gtgrandfather went from being a Ag. Lab, to become a haulier and then a landowner.
-
I think you are both right - the point being that horses were ubiquitous, and could on occasion be borrowed.
-
Oh dear me, you Brits think so small, as if walking 20 or 30 miles was unlikely or a major adventure. People crossed North America on foot, and they didn't learn how to walk when they got to the New World; their ancestors had been doing it for thousands of years.
-
Don't forget the huge number of carriers crisscrossing the country - from one man and his cart delivering goods locally to quite organised outfits who would travel certain routes on set days from town to town and are often mentioned in gazetteers, you could have cadged a lift on one of those.
Carole
-
Many more jobs involved walking in earlier times. For example, my grandfather would have walked about 12 miles behind a horse-drawn plough to turn over his acre of land per day, as well as walking to and from the field, and probably cleaning out the stables before he spent the evening digging his garden. He certainly didn't suffer an obesity problem!
Also, according to his journal, even on his holidays my great grandfather walked more than 16 miles and rowed a boat a further 18 miles, all in one day . . . for pleasure . . . and he was not a young man at that time.
As many others have said, our ancestors thought nothing of walking long distances when there was little alternative.
Mike.
-
Oh dear me, you Brits think so small, as if walking 20 or 30 miles was unlikely or a major adventure. People crossed North America on foot, and they didn't learn how to walk when they got to the New World; their ancestors had been doing it for thousands of years.
That's funny - I was sure that wagon trains were pulled by horses ? ???
-
I have many instances of ancestors moving around well before 1800. One moved from Norfolk to London in about 1780 with siblings. From 1750 to 1800 I have a couple who lived all over Suffolk and in Norfolk for a time.
-
I have read the diaries of one family of ancestors dating for roughly 100 years from the 1770s.
They were a wealthy family, but there is a lot of mention of transportation throughout the period, and it is very interesting to read how things changed.
The first ancestor was an American by birth and came to England just before Independence, travelling by passenger ship; later trans-Atlantic trips are mentioned and it seems passage could be bought at ports. His day-to-day travel was by horse.
His son lived mainly in Wales, but required to travel to London, which was achieved using his own carts or coaches, by ferry across the Bristol Channel, and by post coach from Bristol to London. For his local travel, he either used horse, horse & cart, or indeed was quite prepared to walk from his home to Swansea which is approx 6 miles.
From the 1830s, it is notable how much quicker the railway made the long distance trips, Bristol to London in hours rather than days.
-
People were more mobile than we seem to think they were.
-
Hi Everybody,
I started this thread because I was considering whether the "Mabbutts of Gloucester" would, at one time, have moved to Wiltshire. I think that this is an option to be considered, especially if they were agricultural workers.
I think that people were much more mobile than I first thought.
Best wishes,
Dave
-
On the Yorkshire Indexers' website www.yorkshireindexers.co.uk under the banner "Forum" there is a section entitled Leodis Leeds, a tribute to Keith Feeney. In this section there is a post entitled "A Shopping Trip to Leeds" detailing how people would travel to Leeds from Hull.
BumbleB
-
I may be way behind the postings here, didn't notice the dates, just the content.
Some of my ancestors walked up what is now the A49, well that is what we deduced it being a direct way, around 1811 From Tintern Abbey to Warrington, when the wire works was quietening down there and the industrial north was becoming, 'industrial.
My gt gt grandfather followed with his family in 1870. The train had not yet reached Tintern, that came in 1871. Did they walk? The river Wye was very busy, did they go by boat round Wales and down the Mersey, or did they go from tintern to Chepstow, ferry over to Bristol area and catch the train there. Who knows but it is fun trying to weave stories round the journey.
M
-
People were more mobile than we seem to think they were.
You bet ! When I was researching the GRIFFIN line in my tree, I wasn't too surprised to see that my maternal 6th great grandfather ANDREW GRIFFIN, who was born in Somerset, had died in the Isle of Wight, until I noticed that it was the Isle of Wight, Virginia, USA ! What's more, his father was born in the Isle of Wight, Virginia, in 1644. They must have been one of the early settlers/traders in the Virginia settlement, and the GRIFFIN family are mentioned in the records of the early settlers.
-
This is a topic that has interested me. I also wonder how people met their spouse, given people did not necessarily marry partners from the same town or village.
I think that people travelled by boat using the rivers, canals and sea.
I have found a couple of ancestors one from Weymouth the other from Bridport. I think they are more likley to travel by sea between these two locations than on foot.
-
My best example of long distance courtships is that of my great grandparents. Great grandfather was born and grew up in Brightlingsea, Essex, his wife in Nairn in the North of Scotland - a distance by road of around six hundred miles. But he was a merchant sailor and so could have met a future wife almost anywhere around the coast of the UK.
I also have a set of 2 x greats who were born in Surrey and Staffordshire but who were presumably brought together by his moving around the country to find work. Most of their offspring grew up in the North East. I wish I could have some idea of their various accents! ;D
-
I have a couple born 100 miles apart in Foulness, Essex and Bletchingdon, Oxfordshire. They met in London in about 1864 and wed at St Mary, Lambeth in February 1866. He took her back to Foulness. John Wallaker and Sarah Brain. Born 26 April 1842 and 25 Novem,ber 1842.
-
I suppose it can be argued that young women were more mobile than men in the 1800's, because so many women travelled hundreds of miles to big towns to work in domestic service ?
-
I suppose it can be argued that young women were more mobile than men in the 1800's, because so many women travelled hundreds of miles to big towns to work in domestic service ?
there was probably nearly as many men in service as women -- grooms, gardeners, footmen etc
-
In about 1908 my great gran moved from Oxford to Bexhill. But transport was much more advanced than in 1820.
I have a William Inkpen who wed in Oxford in 1765. Inkpen is a rare surname in Oxon and many came from Dorset, Kent or Sussex. There is a village in Berkshire called Inkpen which may have connections to the surname. My William would have been born about 1740ish. Perhaps Dorset?? Sussex?? Oxon???
-
I suppose it can be argued that young women were more mobile than men in the 1800's, because so many women travelled hundreds of miles to big towns to work in domestic service ?
there was probably nearly as many men in service as women -- grooms, gardeners, footmen etc
Possibly, but did they 'live in' with their employers ?
-
I suppose it can be argued that young women were more mobile than men in the 1800's, because so many women travelled hundreds of miles to big towns to work in domestic service ?
there was probably nearly as many men in service as women -- grooms, gardeners, footmen etc
Possibly, but did they 'live in' with their employers ?
a lot of them would have done so
grooms & coachmen would have accomodation over the stables (think of all the "mews" houses available in cities behind the larger residences)
butlers & footmen would be accommodated in the house . Large houses would have separate male & female servant areas
Many shops in large cities also provided accomodation for staff, both male & female
-
Many men working in service were allowed to be married, and even have families. Something not usually allowed for young women in service.
-
As said my great grandmother moved 100 miles from oxford to the Sussex coast in about 1908 to work in service.
-
Hi Everybody,
I discovered that my great grandmother on my father's side, was born in Aberdeenshire c. 1839 and moved to London to work, where she gave birth to my grandmother. They were both in domestic service. Mind you...how on earth did she travel the 500miles to London? ???
Best wishes,
Dave
-
Oh dear me, you Brits think so small, as if walking 20 or 30 miles was unlikely or a major adventure. People crossed North America on foot, and they didn't learn how to walk when they got to the New World; their ancestors had been doing it for thousands of years.
Back then even in Britain walking 20 or 30 miles would have been a major adventure. Proper roads did not exist making it hard for anyone to walk or for carts/carriages to travel, and there were all sorts of other dangers on the road - such as being robbed and/or murdered.
-
Hi Everybody,
I started this thread because I was considering whether the "Mabbutts of Gloucester" would, at one time, have moved to Wiltshire.
Dave I also have ancestors who were agricultural labourers who moved from Wiltshire to Gloucestershire around that time, and from Devon to Gloucestershire. Three ancestresses moved from the country (Norfolk to London or Devon to Bristol) as well, to work in service. It must have been a heck of a journey to make, but it seems to have been more common than we would think - especially when some others didn't move out of their villages for generations!
Some time ago I was in rural India researching where one of my ancestors had been a gold mine assayer. That was fascinating because even now it was hard to get around, so I couldn't imagine what it was like for g grandfather more than 100 years ago!
-
Hi all
Of course no one seems to have mentioned the hiring fairs - As was customary in rural communities those seeking work would have sought employment at one of the local hiring fairs that were held twice a year. Both male and female agricultural servants would have attended in order to negotiate with potential employers for a job. It was in this way they could obtain a position for the coming year. The yearly hiring would include board and lodging for single employees for a whole year. I suspect many people met their partners in this way. They may have also attended hiring fairs that took them further and further from their original home.
As far a transport, here is an interesting example from 1837. I have several different copies of the Memoirs of Ireland which have been fascinating and give a very good picture of life in various parts of Ireland. My family are from rural Maghera which is in Co. Derry. It states: “ The coach from Dungannon to Colraine passes every day at twelve, meeting at the same time the return coach from Coleraine to Dungannon. A coach from Londonderry to Belfast also formerly passed through at that hour, but it was given up January 1837 by the proprietor for want of support, after having been for some time replaced by a car”. It also has a section about the local “Conveyances” – In town there were 5 part cars for hire and 1 chaise.
Remember this is 1837 in rural Ireland.
-
In my tree I have found an ancestor who was born in Warwickshire but moved to Wootton in Oxfordshire, only 15 miles but still a different county. She wed in Wootton in 1793 and died in 1827. And one Oxfordshire born ancestor born in 1675 wed his first wife in Bishopsgate, London in 1696. She was buried in their home village of Burford shortly after they married.
-
I would imagine that stage coaches were used a fair bit if the passenger could afford the fares of course. I know would prefer to ride if I could!
Kevin
-
Having carried out a one-name-study it seems to me that few labourers moved very far from where they were born, though there seems not uncommon to move around parishes within a 15-20 mile radius (as people have said, this is easy travelling distance). There were farmers and traders regularly travelling to markets and hauliers carrying goods by cart (like todays long distance truck drivers) along arterial routes.
In my experience, the people that moved further than this were either 'of means' ...or in the army. Men who joined the local militia seemed to end up travelling massive distances, from one end of the UK to the other and overseas.
Very interesting topic of discussion, I've enjoyed reading it!!
-
4 miles an hour was the usual fit pace of people prior to the industrial revolution and has been used as a standard walking pace ever since. However people were fitter then than now because of the neccesity to walk almost everywhere. 5 M/hour was not out of the question so 30 to 40 miles in a day unladen is not also. This would have been a pretty big journey however. Hamlets and towns were not that far apart and if not already carried meals could be had although simple by our standards. For longer journeys those who did not go first class could ride on the outside of the coach and twenty people could be carried this way. Also commercial carts plied the highways and for a very small fee could offer a ride, this was in addition to farm carts on their way to markets. By the way you are thinking of areas already settled and roads constructed in my country of Australia the distances very very much larger and the opportunities for a ride much less and people walked distances of 600 miles to seek work.
Neil
-
London was a honeypot for people from other parts of the UK. I have ancestors who were from London and some of their lines came from Norfolk, Sussex, Kent, probably Dorset or Somerset and France.
-
Farm workers in the 1800s often worked in 'gangs', sleeping in a cart overnight. This cart was quite large, and acted like a caravan, providing somewhere to sleep, and to store provisions for the week. The men would work from the cart Monday to Friday (or Saturday), and come home on Sundays. The cart could take the men quite a long way from home.
-
Has anyone mentioned the Canals yet?
You could pay for a trip on a canal boat.
-
In 1844 railways were introduced and travelling around increased even more. Interesting about the cart for farm workers.
-
1615 - I am amazed at the number of people who read these posts.....
-
Never underestimate the distances some people travelled even before 1820.