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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: posapete on Monday 18 April 11 23:03 BST (UK)
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My great grandparents Patrick Bardin and Margaret Curry were married in Saint Paul's on 11/09/1855. The certificate I obtained through Roots Ireland states that the father of Patrick and his wife Margaret are not recorded. Can someone suggest what facilites are available to research my ancestors further as I seem to have hit a brick wall.
Moderator Note : Topic split from thread re St. Paul's, Arran Quay - Graveyard
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The details for St. Paul's on RootsIreland are transcripts of parish records, rather than certificates. Since RC marriages were only registered from 1864, there will be no marriage cert as such. Early parish records are often quite basic so dont usually give as much detail as a full cert.
Does the transcript include addresses for the bride and groom or the names on the witnesses ?
Shane
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The witness's are Michael Hartigan and Elizabeth Moore. There is no mention of address. Additional information on the Bardin family:- My great grandparents were Patrick Bardin and Margaret Curry. They married at St Paul’s Arran Quay on 11th September 1855. My records show that Patrick and Margaret had 7 children, the first child Mary was born 9 years after their marriage on 01/11/1864 followed by Richard Joseph on 28/101869, Margaret Theresa 09/10/1872, Albert Joseph (My Grandfather) 15/01/1875, Christopher 13/11/1877, Mary Kathleen 18/01/1880, Francis 1884 he died 1918.
My grandfather Albert was born at 4 Dawson Row O.U. Patrick Bardin died 22/02/1908 at East Arran St. Dublin Francis his youngest son was present at his death. According to the death certificate Patrick was 68 years old; if he married in 1855 he would only have been 15 at the time. Margaret Curry his wife died on 24/11/1919 at 28 East Arran Street. Richard their eldest son of 3 Palace Street was present at his mother’s death.
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I would think there could be other children born to the couple before 1864, but since that would be before the start of civil records they would only appear in parish details. It would be worth re-checking www.irishgenealogy.ie for other children after their next update
Do you have the occupation of Patrick Bardin from any of the children's birth certs ?
Depending on the type of occupation or trade he had, it may be possible to trace possible some details of him.
I dont think that Bardin would be that common a surname in Dublin, so it's probably worth following up any other baptisms and marriages with that name to see if you can establish any family groups. You may also be able to check possible connections to family members by following up on people listed as godparents (sponsors) on baptism records.
Marriages generally took place in the bride's parish, so presumably Margaret was living near to St. Pauls at the time - although there's no easy to tell if that's where she came from originally.
Shane
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Thank's Shane, on Patrick's death cert. he is shown as a Blacksmith on his wife's death certificate, her late husband Pastrick was an Engine Driver.
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A blacksmith might be listed in directories... probably not an engine-driver.
no blacksmiths but there are just four listings for the surname Bardin or similar in Thom's 1852 :
Patrick Barden, tailor and draper, 3 Palace street
Mrs. Bardin, size, hair and neat's foot oil factory, 30 Patrick Street
John Bardon, writing clerk, 6 Grangegorman Lane
Paul Bardon, writing clerk, 6 Grangegorman Lane
I'll check a few more dates later on...
Shane
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Thank's Shane, :- The 1911 census shows Richard Bardin, Patrick's son was living with his family at a house 3 in Palace St. (Royal Exchange, Dublin). His profession Printer Litho. Richard Joseph was born at 1 Walkey Alley. On Richards birth certificate it states the his Father Patrick was an Engine Driver @(looks like :- Richmond Sumali Cisyliuce? Hope you can figure that out Shane.
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Richard Joseph was born at 1 Walkey Alley. On Richards birth certificate it states the his Father Patrick was an Engine Driver @(looks like :- Richmond Sumali Cisyliuce?
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I would guess possibly something associated with the Richmond complex of buildings - i.e. the Asylum, Hospital or Penitentary.
p.s. As well as railway locomotives, the term Engine driver was used for someone who operated a stationary steam engine - as in one used to provide power to a water pump or to drive machinery.
Do you have an scan of this cert ?
If you could post a small extract of the image maybe someone could decipher the occupation for you..
Shane
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Thank's Shane, :- The 1911 census shows Richard Bardin, Patrick's son was living with his family at a house 3 in Palace St. (Royal Exchange, Dublin). His profession Printer Litho. Richard Joseph was born at 1 Walkey Alley. On Richards birth certificate it states the his Father Patrick was an Engine Driver @(looks like :- Richmond Sumali Cisyliuce? Hope you can figure that out Shane.
Hi just noticed the mention of the Richmond aslyum, it became known as grangegorman in the 1921, heres a link to the webpage if you send them an email they maybe be able to help, just advanced warning since they are all volunteers it can take a while to get a reply
http://grangegorman.ie/Home.html
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Thank's Shane, :- The 1911 census shows Richard Bardin, Patrick's son was living with his family at a house 3 in Palace St. (Royal Exchange, Dublin). His profession Printer Litho. Richard Joseph was born at 1 Walkey Alley. On Richards birth certificate it states the his Father Patrick was an Engine Driver @(looks like :- Richmond Sumali Cisyliuce? Hope you can figure that out Shane.
Hi,
I don't know if I can be of any help to you? But my name is Raymond Bardin and I am the great grandson of Richard Bardin of 3 palace street, son of Patrick. My grandfather, Son of Richard and also named Richard fought in the Royal Navy. At the end of world war 1 and again in the first few years of world war 2. My father Francis is still alive and would remember his uncle's. If I can be of any help just let me know.
Regards
Raymond Bardin
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A note of caution re some of RootsIreland's transcriptions.
Roots Ireland incorrectly recorded the marriage of my 2 x gt grandparents as having taken place in St Paul's whereas it actually took place in St Michans's.
Definitely worth checking on Irish Genealogy.
H
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Hi Raymond, I'm delighted that you posted on this subject, more so that you are my sole Bardin cousin. My grandfather Albert Bardin and your Great Grandfather Richard were brothers. I know of 7 siblings and I've just discovered the eldest brother Arthur Bardin. Would love to make contact with you in order to swop family information, perhaps you might have a few surprises for me.
Regards
Pete
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Hi Raymond, further to your offer of help:-
Your G. Grandfather Richard J Bardin was born in 1869, and was married to Jane ?. According to my records he had 7 other siblings:- Arthur b abt 1856, Mary, 1864, Margaret Theresa 1872, Albert J (my grandfather) 1875, Christopher 1878, Mary Kathleen 1880 and Francis 1884. Between Arthur 1856 and Mary 1864, do you know of any other children I may have omitted?
Regarding your Grandfather Richard, I have him as being the eldest of 5 children, Richard 1899, William 1901, Dominic 1905, Patrick 1907, and Albert 1910. If you are able to fill me in with extra details Raymond, I'll be over the moon.
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The Arthur Bardin marrying in 1875 in the following list is clearly another son of Patrick and Margaret:
http://tinyurl.com/clxuxpl
Here is Arthur and family in 1911. His age is listed as 55 which should be taken as approximate.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Inns_Quay/Mountjoy_St_/35251/
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Thank you John for that. What I'm hoping to find out if Patrick Bardin and Margaret Curry had any children between Arthur 1856 and Mary 1864. Having an 8 year gap between children seems to be a little out of character for Patrick and Margaret :)
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That is a big gap alright. There must be more. Well at least you have Arthur now, that's a start. I wonder if there might have been a few infant deaths after Arthur arrived. I notice that there is more than 1 person buried in the grave with Margaret, though this doesn't guarantee that they are from the same family. However it might be worth the €10 to buy this record;
http://tinyurl.com/c7gbt6s
If you search for Patrick Bardin in 1908, also with Arran in the address, you will see no other records for burials in the same grave as him.
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Patrick died 22 Feb 1908. Margaret his wife survived until 24 Nov. 1919 and died at 3 Palace St. at the home of her son Richard who was mentioned as the witness on her death certificate.
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Yes, those are the exact years of death of the Patrick and Margaret who are buried in Glasnevin, with addresses in East Arran Street.
The death cert will list place of death which can of course be a different place to home address. Your earlier post (Reply no.2) though mentioned 28 East Arran St as Margaret's place of death, rather than her son's house, with Richard in attendance.
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I have dug out Margaret's death certificate and it reads Date and place of death 24/11/1919 28, E. Arran Street, Blacksmiths widow. Residence of informant Richard Bardin, Son, Present at death, 3 Palace Street, she was 74 years of age.
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Further to Margaret Curry, her death certificate confirms that she was 74 years old at the time of death on 24/11/1919. If this is so Arthur couldn't possibly have been born in 1856 as this would make Margaret 11 years old. The parish records show that Margaret Curry married Patrick Bardin on 11/09/1855 she would have only been 10 years old at the time. It would seem that errors have been made in the records as they just don't add up.
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Further to Margaret Curry, her death certificate confirms that she was 74 years old at the time of death on 24/11/1919. ....
It would seem that errors have been made in the records as they just don't add up.
my M-I-L died about 20 years ago - the age on her Death Cert was incorrect (she didn't want her new Doctor to know how old she was, so she knocked off a few years!)
This was probably easier to do further back in time.
eadaoin
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A riddle that requires assistance :- Margaret Curry married Patrick Bardin on 11/09/1855 at St Pauls Arran Quay Dublin. Margaret died 24/11/1919 at the age of 74 according to her death certificate. I have done an extensive search for any Margaret Curry’s born about 1845 and came across two. One was baptised on 17/05/1838 at St. Michan the other was baptised on 27/02/1844 at St Catherine. I’m inclined to accept 1838 to be the Margaret Curry for two reasons; firstly she would have been 18 years old at the time of her marriage as opposed to 11 if I go in accordance to her death certificate. Secondly St Michan is the church where her and Patricks children were baptised. My next query is that of Arthur Bardin, until his marriage to Theresa Howe at St Michan’s on 16/11/1879 I had no record of his existence. I have search Irish genealogy for some time and his name was not mentioned. Can anyone please assist me on Arthur Bardin’s birth or baptism please?
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My next query is that of Arthur Bardin, until his marriage to Theresa Howe at St Michan’s on 16/11/1879 I had no record of his existence. I have search Irish genealogy for some time and his name was not mentioned. Can anyone please assist me on Arthur Bardin’s birth or baptism please?
given the date, you would need a baptism record rather than a birth...
do you have any clues as to where Arthur was born - e.g. from census returns ?
S.
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There's a 1911 census return mentioend for an Arthur Bardin mentioned in an earlier post as follows
Bardin household (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Inns_Quay/Mountjoy_St_/35251/)
Age 55, so born c1856, and he gives his place of birth as 'Dublin City' - so it that's accurate then the IrishGenealogy website is definitely the place to start the search for a baptism. Maybe then RootsIreland, which has transcripts for St. Pauls.
For reference here's a link to that 1879 marriage
Bardin/Howe marriage, St. Michan RC (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/e6f21a0084903)
parents are Patrick & Margaret Bardin, and Thomas & Mary Howe. Arthur & his parents are both living at Dawsons Row, Dublin.
Shane
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Thank you Shane, it would seem that Arthur would have been the eldest 1856 one year after his parents marriage. However his baptism is not mentioned in Irish Genealogy. The first mention of children is that of Mary Bardin almost 10 years after Margaret and Patrick's marriage, there is no mention of Arthur or any may be siblings prior to Mary, then there's no stopping them. :D
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Were the other children all baptised in St Paul's ?
S.
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No, St. Michan
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I was thinking there might be a gap in the register, or some missing pages - nothing noted in the NLI index around this time for either St. Michan's or St. Paul's, but there could be a few damaged pages not mentioned in these.
(St. Paul's was a large, busy parish so there's some overlapping registers)
S.
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There's a baptism for a Arthur Bardin showing up mid 1850s on the free index on Rootsireland - have you already checked this ?
It could be Co. Dublin, but if it's the city, it has to be St. Pauls.
S.
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I've just got the information thanks Shane, Arthur was baptised 25/08/1856, mind you it cost me 25 credits.
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Unfortunately the Records for St. Paul's are only on that website, so that's the only online choice at the moment.
I think St. Paul's records are now held at St. Michan's and you can request details if you have a date, or a search for records, but as far as I remember there is a charge for that also. Only 'free' source is the NLI - of course that depends on how much it costs to get there!
S.
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I’ve been looking at my grandfather’s baby brother Francis Bardin who died in 1918 in Dublin at 4 North Brunswick; the informant at his death was Michael Murphy (inmate). I’m wondering if Francis Bardin was a prisoner or a resident of a Workhouse when he died in1918? After researching Francis for only a few minutes it would seem that he was in and out of prison from the age of 17 until his death at the age of 34 for mainly minor offences. His death certificate states that he died of TB after spending almost 10 months in hospital.
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Yes, that address could indicate the North Dublin Union Workhouse but that address was part of a wider complex including several hospitals.
see
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,467829.0.html
also
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/DublinNorth/
for a clear explanation of the entire complex.
The 'inmate' Michael Murphy would have been an employee at the particular institution that Francis Bardin was admitted to.
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I saw on another forum that someone had pointed out that familysearch.org had a transcription of Albert's birth with the surname recorded as Barnes:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPBG-V8Q
name: Albert Barnes
baptism/christening place: 2 NORTH CITY, CITY OF DUBLIN, IRE
birth date: 15 Jan 1875
birthplace: 2 North City, City Of Dublin, Ire
father's name: Patrick Barnes
mother's name: Margaret Curry
Searching on irishgenealogy.ie using surname Barnes shows Mary/Maria's baptism on 7/11/1864 as recorded under the surname Barns (even on the original register), parents Patrick Barns and Margaret Curry. Also there are 2 earlier possibilities as offspring of Patrick and Margaret (though without Margaret's maiden name being confirmed), William in 1860 and Patrick in 1862.
See this link:
http://tinyurl.com/dylc8v7
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Thank you for that information. Regarding Albert Barnes I had to see a solicitor and swear on oath to have Barnes changed to Bardin. You are most likely correct with regards to Patrick Barns and William Barnes, it's a pity Margaret Curry is not mentioned and that the address at birth do not match up. Even so I think you have done an excellent job so far, thank you for your time and effort.
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Thanks Hasta, On Francis's death certificate the cause of death was Pulmonary TB 9 months 26 days in hospital exhaustion certified. Poor great uncle, what a dreadful waste of a young life, only 34 years old.
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I have been sent 2 baptismal certificates for William and Patrick Barnes and one has the mother as Margaret Barnes and Patrick Barnes his mother is Margaret Curry. So thank you for pointing me in this direction I'm confident that both William and Patrick are both the sons of Margaret Curry and Patrick Bardin.
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That's good to hear. By the way, where did you apply to for those 2 baptismal certs?
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http://www.churchandhalston.irishcapuchins.com/Purchase.html
I spoke to a lovely lady called Paddy Pender, gave her my e-mail address, true to her word I received the PDF files 2 days later. I have found since I started on my Irish family tree there are so many helpful folk around, just take yourself for instance. Thank you Shaun.
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That's good to know. I have one main branch of my tree in St Michans. Thanks