RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: zowster on Saturday 16 April 11 21:09 BST (UK)
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Well a strange tale that Great granny told her family but i can't get to the bottom of it so i thought id share it with my roots chatters friends see what they make of it.
My Great Grandmother was Mary Annie Maria Tribe (I have put posts up regarding tribe family) She was born in Epsom in 1887. But let me start with her father and come forward. He was William Henry Tribe born 1861 on Epsom Common there is no father on birth certificate or baptisim record. In the 1881 census is living at the George High st Epsom occupation Musician. He meets Mary anne Hooper, they have children but they don't marry until 1890 i think all the children belong to him bar the eldest, only there youngest is born in wedlock i 1890. The daughter they have in 1887 is my g grandmother i have her birth certificate, i have found her on the 1891 census with her family her father is now a professor of music. 10 years later in 1901 William and Mary have completley disappeared along with some of the children. I can find two of the daughters working in a laundry still in Epsom. My G grandmother is in service in Warwickshire at the age of 13, a long way from Epsom i have no idea, i can't find any other of her siblings. My Great grandmother marries in warwickshire in 1908(which is where i am now) on the marriage cert it says William was a musician he is deceased but one of the witnesses is her brother William i couldn't find him in 1901
My Mother was always told by my great grandmother she was a Romany Gypsy, the story she told is her family were Romany Gypsies from Epsom and the reason she ended up here in Warwickshire was they were travelling this way and parked up somewhere near Dordon, when her family moved on she got left behind (dumped). It seems such a strange story to make up but for the life of me i can't get to the bottom of it. I'm sorry this is rather long and i hope it all makes sense, i would love to find out how she came to be in Warwickshire and if this tale is true.
Looking forward to hearing what you all think
Best wishes Sharon
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The tale may well be true, I can't see why she'd make it up. But on the other hand I have no idea how you would prove it.
She may have been "dumped" as she saw it, but lots of girls entered service when they were 13 and would be living in, away from their families.
I would suggest you try googling "romany family history" and see if you can find further sources.
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hi, sharon, its very hard to trace old links to romany folk, unless you have some more info or close links to your travelling family. but i can tell you epsom downs and surrounding the areas,have a long link to the romany people. and as to the tale granny tells, well it could be true as she saw it then. but i dont know of any dumping of family members within the gypsy folk, in fact they tend to be more than close. but she may have been hired for a fixed term as a worker. my own father one of about fifteen in his extended family, was romany who travelled and lived sometimes in a house, went to a hireing fair age sixteen, and worked a fix term, ie. six / twelve months, on a farm in the twenties. olso lots of romany children did work as casual farm or fruit workers. depending on the areas they lived in. so maybe she was hired to work by someone and the money paid to her father? and left till they came back at a later time?, with lots of mouths to feed this did sometimes happen, but the child would never get the money paid as it went to the family. so it may have seemed she was dumped! hope this is a help. rob.g
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Sharon; I can never resist having a quick look at Bob Dawson's book, " A Romany in the Family ", when ever names I don't equate with come up.
Sure enough though; " Tribe " is listed as a Gypsy name, recorded from Bucks and Berkshire.
Not exactly a million miles from Epsom then. And Epsom would have been Mecca to those people, as Rob G indicates. Perfectly feasible too that such 'local' Gypsys would gravitate towards hanging around.
Interestingly, " Hooper " is listed too. " 1908. HRT, NFK, SFK. " Hert's can't be dismissed here. Does 1908 mesh with ye own time scale? Sounds like it might. Starting to look like it walks like a duck, isn't it?
As Jeuel points out too; My own Gt. Aunt was 'sold into service', in her early teens. " To sort her out ", as her parents put it to her. Bloody rich, coming from her mother! ;)
Not sure it did any good. She ~ my Gt. Aunt ~ still continued the 'noble' tradition, as taught to her and her sisters, by their mother, of publicly stripping to the waist to bare knuckle fight Royal Naval Personnel on the quays of Poole and streets of Portsmouth! 'Laarvly!'. Couldn't take them anywhere! ;D
Dunno. Warwick seems a long old way to go. 'Why?', I find myself asking.
But, does the why matter? It seems she wound up there .....
??? En route to Appleby ....?
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Is your family story true or just a fairy story...who knows but it is your family's oral history and that say a lot about families as I am sure we have all been told family stories, proving or disproving is another thing and if there are records then you can prove......travelling families could end up anywhere and if she was in service then there could be records, did her father sign or put an X to get paid for her?...if so its worth looking for...was she safely in service and the family were moved on? That could explain her being 'dumped' although warwickshire is not a bad place to be 'dumped' in
I would have thought if they were travellers then they are unlikely to be on each census...what are the addresses on the census and as a 'professor' of Music it was either to elevate his profession or true.
There are lots of links on here for gypies, romani, travellers etc and some may help you find more information http://familytimeline.webs.com/apps/links/
I love family stories and have heard so many and the ones I have bottomed out have no relevance to the truth at all, but as I say it tells you a lot about your family and especially in that day and age it was possibly one of the few entertainments.
Good luck with your search
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Well a strange tale that Great granny told her family but i can't get to the bottom of it so i thought id share it with my roots chatters friends see what they make of it.
My Great Grandmother was Mary Annie Maria Tribe (I have put posts up regarding tribe family) She was born in Epsom in 1887. But let me start with her father and come forward. He was William Henry Tribe born 1861 on Epsom Common there is no father on birth certificate or baptisim record. In the 1881 census is living at the George High st Epsom occupation Musician. He meets Mary anne Hooper, they have children but they don't marry until 1890 i think all the children belong to him bar the eldest, only there youngest is born in wedlock i 1890. The daughter they have in 1887 is my g grandmother i have her birth certificate, i have found her on the 1891 census with her family her father is now a professor of music. 10 years later in 1901 William and Mary have completley disappeared along with some of the children. I can find two of the daughters working in a laundry still in Epsom. My G grandmother is in service in Warwickshire at the age of 13, a long way from Epsom i have no idea, i can't find any other of her siblings. My Great grandmother marries in warwickshire in 1908(which is where i am now) on the marriage cert it says William was a musician he is deceased but one of the witnesses is her brother William i couldn't find him in 1901
My Mother was always told by my great grandmother she was a Romany Gypsy, the story she told is her family were Romany Gypsies from Epsom and the reason she ended up here in Warwickshire was they were travelling this way and parked up somewhere near Dordon, when her family moved on she got left behind (dumped). It seems such a strange story to make up but for the life of me i can't get to the bottom of it. I'm sorry this is rather long and i hope it all makes sense, i would love to find out how she came to be in Warwickshire and if this tale is true.
Looking forward to hearing what you all think
Best wishes Sharon
Not sure if this is any help :
death 16th Sept 1940 - probate 29th Oct 1940
Tribe William Henry otherwise William of 93 Gladstone road Wimbledon Surrey
died 16th Sept 1940 at 82 gladstone Rd Wimbledon
Admin Llandudno Wales 29th oct to George Frederick Tribe ( the elder)
house decorator
effects £247 2d
A death reg : William H Tribe 1937 - aged 66 ( b 1871)
Surrey South Eastern 2a 555
A death reg : William H Tribe 1940 -aged 58 ( b 1882)
Surrey North Eastern 2a 163
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Thank you all for your replies and advice, this is a mystery that i will continue to try and unravel, its all part of the hobby i suppose.
All the best Rootschatters
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Have you got any further?
I was chatting with a friend yesterday and he said his mother was from the Tribe family and her mother had been an orphen.
Why I do not know,I asked if they were gypsies. He said not as far as he knew but that they had been wateremen on the Thames in London.
I hope to get further information from him. Sandra
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Did you ever get any further Yasmina. Unfortunately I haven’t but it’s not through not trying. As frustrating as it gets I won’t ever give up.think I’m addicted
Sharon
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Did you ever get any further Yasmina. Unfortunately I haven’t but it’s not through not trying. As frustrating as it gets I won’t ever give up.think I’m addicted
Sharon
No further news I'm sad to say.
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I have a family story running on parallel lines, although my ancestor born a decade before yours, wasn't a gypsy but a travelling musician.
When times were hard you made a living where and how you could and during that particular period there were groups of musicians travelling throughout Europe and some of the more organised ones even travelled further afield. They'd play at music festivals and busk in streets especially outside of theatres, markets, etc. It was common practice to use young children to encourage an audience to give money.
My gt. grandfather was one of about 12 children, he was six years old and his sister two years younger when they travelled around Europe busking with their mother's brother who taught them to play the violin. GGF arrived in England when he was 10 years 1 day old. His uncle eventually met and married a harp playing daughter of another musician who had stopped moving around and had set up a (boarding) school of music in the north of England. Life must have been hard as none of the older members of the two groups lived to a very great age.
I managed to find most of the story by chance because I kept noticing the frequency of the other family's name and eventually contacted the am researcher for his family story. It turned out that my gt grandfather's cousin (a daughter of the uncle) had married into the other band of musicians.
I was lucky enough to find a cousin of my late mother who filled me in with other personal bits of GGF's life. Maybe you will be lucky enough to find a relative who has a few more tidbits to offer.
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Did you ever get any further Yasmina. Unfortunately I haven’t but it’s not through not trying. As frustrating as it gets I won’t ever give up.think I’m addicted
Sharon
;D ;D ;D.....no thinking required - Once an addict - Always an addict!! 😜😜😜🌺
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My Great grandmother marries in warwickshire in 1908 (which is where i am now) on the marriage cert it says William was a musician he is deceased but one of the witnesses is her brother William i couldn't find him in 1901
Not quite dumped then if a brother is the witness on the marriage?
How did he know where she was to attend her marriage?
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Gro:
TRIBE, MARTHA SARAH KATE HOOPER
GRO Reference: 1890 J Quarter in EPSOM Volume 02A Page 17
The youngest did she die unwed??
Martha S K Tribe
Died Surrey in 1959
Birth Year 1891
Age 68
Event Quarter 1
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Yes she did iv found her on 1939 register.
I have no idea how her brother knew where she was unless he was left in Warwickshire too I don’t know as I’m unable to find him on 1901/1911 census.
On the 1901 census it says my g grandmother is a boarder which I find strange if she had been sold for service surely it would say servant.
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http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/boardingout/
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GRO:
TRIBE, EDITH ANNIE HOOPER
GRO Reference: 1883 J Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 248
Possibly married (freebdm)
Marriages Sep 1906
RATCLIFF John Epsom 2a 69
TRIBE Edith Annie Epsom 2a 69
Their Possible child
GRO
RATCLIFF, EDITH SARAH TRIBE
GRO Reference: 1907 S Quarter in EPSOM Volume 02A Page 27
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Thank you whiteout I hadn’t seen that birth, I agree that that could be their child named after her little sister
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I found 3 baptisms all done on same day 25th October 1885
William Henry Tribe b 1885 26th May
Ada Agnes Tribe b 1880 7th July
Edith Annie Tribe b 1883 29th April :
The parents given were Wm Henry Tribe ( labour) Benhilton, All Saints, Surrey, England and mother Mary Annie Maria Hooper
This I can confirm mother of Ada Agnes birth register 1880 Epsom, she was registered as Hooper thus due to mother not officially being wed.
In 1881 Census Ada Agnes is living with her grandfather Frederick ( bricklayers labour) widower in Espom also her mother Mary and an Emily b 1874 Epsom who was Mary sister and went on to marry Alfred Brewer in 1891 Epsom.> a year after her sister weds Wm H Tribe.
The deceased mother was Maria Rowley having wed Frederick Hooper on 21 Jul 1861
Marriage Place: Ewell, St Mary, Surrey, England.
1890 13th Jan marriage of Wm H Tribe born 1861 to Mary Hooper b 1864 in ewell surrey. Wm now says he is itinerant musician, no father given and Mary Hooper gives father Fredrick Hooper labour. The one noticeable thing I see both signed names not by marks, which suggests both can read and write.
I cannot see anything that suggests from mothers side they were romany .
I did find this in 1871 Espom Wm Tribe b 1863 Espom as grandson with grandparents John b 1818 Sussex wife Martha Rapson married in 1837 Lurgashall,Sussex,England. I cannot confirm this is right Wm Tribe just thought I let you know might be worth researching.
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I'm also researching Romany roots in Wales I'm adopted and several of my lines are leading to travelling family, the one I'm looking at now has the surname tasker links to north Wales anyone have any information
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I'm also researching Romany roots in Wales I'm adopted and several of my lines are leading to travelling family, the one I'm looking at now has the surname tasker links to north Wales anyone have any information
Hi there,
I don't have any of your surname insterests, but as you are new to rootschat I assume that you may not have looked at the pages containing SIT (Surnames Interests) pages
This page gives a list of rootschatters who are researching the surname "Tasker" and with any luck you may see a link to your branch.
http://surname.rootschat.com/sit-surnames.php?letter1=T&letter2=0&surname=TASKER#top_tv
I was interested to see the meaning and origin of your surname Tasker:-
"The surname Tasker is primarily an English occupational surname, meaning it originated from a job title. It most likely refers to someone who performed tasks, particularly threshing grain, and is derived from the Middle English word "taske," meaning "task" or "piece of work". The surname can also have roots in German, referring to a maker of purses or bags, or in Slovenian, where it also denotes an occupational name."