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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Sysnode on Saturday 16 April 11 21:07 BST (UK)
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I am looking for birth, death, and marriage certificates for the following People:
Ellen F Ferguson married a man by the last name of Gold
George Gold, son of Ellen F Ferguson-Gold was born in 1879 in Cambusnethan, Lanarshire. George's father seems to have disappeared and I am hoping to find a George's birth certificate in hopes it would list his parents.
Does anyone know how to search cemetery plots; a lot of cemeteries post the names of all who are buried and makes it easy to search online.
Any advice or direction would be greatly appreciated
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Hello,
According to the IGI George's older siblings were the children of James Gold and Helen Frame.
James Gold and Helen Frame married at Cambusnethan in 1861.
The following is guesswork based on free searches at SP.
I think James died before George was born.
There is a marriage indexed at SP of a Helen Frame to a Mr Ferguson in 1874 at Cambusnethan.
There is a birth of a George Ferguson indexed at SP in 1879 at Cambusnethan and also a George Frame (same year, same district). I don't have enough credits to look and see if they are the same person.
Hopefully this is your George.
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1881 census
Ellen F Ferguson 40 Head born: Bothwell, Lanarkshire Occupation: Washerwoman
Daniel Gold 19
Isabella Gold 17
Helen Gold 13
John Gold 16
James Gold 11
Maggie Gold 6
George Gold 2
Address: 8 Mc Alpine Street Wishaw
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Thank you Cookies4 and Sancti:
Cookies, I don't believe you have the same George Gold as I do. George Gold is my great grandfather and was 8-years old when he arrived in New York from Glasgow.
Per Sancti, the information you provided matches what I was able to trace on Ancestry.Com and matches exactly to the information I was able to gather from my dad and his brother.
Cookies4 & Sancti; Something happened in Cambusnethan, Lanarkshire that caused Ellen F Ferguson, mother of George Gold to move her family to the United States. Apparently Ellen F Ferguson's husband died leaving her with 7-children, George being the youngest.
I am anxious to find out what happened to George's dad. I am trying to find a birth certificate for George that would list who his father is.
Thanks to Cookies4 and Sancti for your quick replies. Let's keep up the search
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Hello again,
Yes we are trying to find info on the same George. I had looked at the 1881 census and to confirm parents names I went back further with the family.
There is no doubt in my mind that this is George's family in 1871 at Gillhead, Cambusnethan -
James Gold 33 born Douglas
Helen I Gold 33 born Cambusnethan
Daniel Gold 9
Isabella Gold 8
John Gold 6
Helen Gold 3
James Gold 1
A parent search at the IGI shows the mother to be Helen Frame.
James is with his parents in 1861 -
Danial Gold 56
Elizabeth Waddel 56
James Gold 24 son, born Douglas
Ellen Fram 20 boarder, born Dalziel
Jenet Alston 14
Elizabeth Fram 12
Lether Fram 5
A James Gold married Helen Frame in March 1861.
If you look at the original it will show if Ellen is married or not on the census.
There is a death in 1875 of a James Gold (who is roughly the correct age) at Cambusnethan.
1 credit shows that there is a birth indexed in 1879 of a George Stoddart Frame and one for a George Stoddart Ferguson at Cambusnethan. They both have the same entry number so it is the same person.
Regards,
Nel
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There are no births registered in Cambusnethan for George Gold born c1879
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It is possible that we are looking for the same George. Through Ancestry.Com I am certain that the George Gold I have found, based upon birth and death information from my dad is that George was 8-years old when he arrived in New York, (on the Furnessia Ship), with his Mother Ellen F Ferguson-Gold on March 15, 1888.
Ellen F Ferguson lived at 8 McAlpine Street with 7-children according to a census taken in 1881. George would have been 2-years old, and the youngest of 7-children.
George Gold's wife was Elizabeth Grinnin; they had two sons, Robert & James. James Gold is my grandfather.
It is killing me to know what happened to Ellen F Ferguson's husband. She had to have been a very strong woman to pick up and move 7-children to a new country.
I hope this information is helpful to you
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Based upon my information; Geoge Gold's dad would have to have lived at least until 1878-1879 to have fathered George. Your records indicate that James Gold (possible father of George) died in 1875. I don't see how this could be the same family.
I have several census reports that list and Ellen F Ferguson with 7-children the youngest being George.
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From the information supplied from Nel it could be that George was the illegitimate son of Ellen F Ferguson
It may be worthwhile checking the birth that Nel posted
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Anything is possible; I just didn't consider him being illegitimate.
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Further research Shows two Daniel Golds; Two different mothers in a ten year span.
Daniel Gold
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relationship: Son
Mother's name: Ellen F Ferguson
Gender: Male
Where born: Cambusnethan, Lanarkshire
Registration Number: 628
Registration district: Cambusnethan
Civil parish: Cambusnethan
Town: Wishaw
COUNTY: Lanarkshire
Address: 8 Mc Alpine Street
Occupation: Coalminer
ED: 13
Household schedule number: 254
Line: 12
Roll: cssct1881_207
Daniel Gold
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relationship: Son
Father's name: James Gold
Mother's name: Helen I Gold
Gender: Male
Where born: Camnethan, Lanarkshire
Registration Number: 628
Registration district: Cambusnethan
Civil parish: Cambusnethan
COUNTY: Lanarkshire
Address: Gillhead
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 8
Household schedule number: 28
Line: 20
Roll: CSSCT1871_120
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My Great Grandfather, George Gold, died in Patton Pennsylvania and is buried at Fairview Cemetery in Cambria County Pennsylvania. Tracking this George Gold back is how I found his mother to be Ellen F Ferguson George's wife Elizabeth Grinnin-Gold is also bured at Fairview Cemetery. All of this has been confirmed with my dad.
I share this information just to assist us both in determining if both George Golds are the same person and if he was illegitimate.
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It may clear up matters if you view the death and birth records stated above on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
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Further research Shows two Daniel Golds; Two different mothers in a ten year span.
Daniel Gold
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relationship: Son
Mother's name: Ellen F Ferguson
Gender: Male
Where born: Cambusnethan, Lanarkshire
Registration Number: 628
Registration district: Cambusnethan
Civil parish: Cambusnethan
Town: Wishaw
COUNTY: Lanarkshire
Address: 8 Mc Alpine Street
Occupation: Coalminer
ED: 13
Household schedule number: 254
Line: 12
Roll: cssct1881_207
Daniel Gold
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relationship: Son
Father's name: James Gold
Mother's name: Helen I Gold
Gender: Male
Where born: Camnethan, Lanarkshire
Registration Number: 628
Registration district: Cambusnethan
Civil parish: Cambusnethan
COUNTY: Lanarkshire
Address: Gillhead
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 8
Household schedule number: 28
Line: 20
Roll: CSSCT1871_120
In my opinion Helen Gold and Ellen Ferguson is the same person.
Like Sancti says the only way you are going to confirm is by checking records at Scotlands People.
Regards,
Nel
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Well, I bit the bullet and spent the money for People Search; Here is what I have found!
Daniel Gold was born on July 11, 1861 @6:00a in Gillhead
Daniel Gold's dad is listed as James Gold a Coal Miner
Daiel Gold's mother is listed Helen Gold a M.L. Frame (need to research what occupation is a ML Frame)
I have to agree with you both, (Sancti & Nel), that Helen and Ellen Furgeson are the same woman
I am going to research George Gold; it is possible that Helen died and Ellen F Furgeson had two children by James Gold which are Maaggie and George. hmmmmm
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I think the certificate states Helen Gold m.s. Frame
Meaning maiden name Frame
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Margaret appears to be have been registered as Margaret Frame or Ferguson too.
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Check the death for James
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Could it be that after the death of James Gold circa 1875, Ellen Frame remarried and her new name became Ferguson?
That would perhaps, explain the Ellen "F" Ferguson.
The IGI lists a birth for GEORGE FRAME GOLD, born in the parish of Carluke 22nd June 1871. Carluke has a common border with Cambusnethan, I think this must be him.
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On the certificate it says that the occupation is below the parents name.
Father: James Gold - Coalminer
Mother: Helen Gold - M.S. Framer
One would have to assume her occupation is a M.S. Framer
I am going to google that and see what I get
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Per Google:
The Picture Framer (ML) - for all your framing requirements in Wishaw, Lanarkshire and the West of Scotland.
I guess she was a picture framer. Pretty cool!
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On the certificate it says that the occupation is below the parents name.
Father: James Gold - Coalminer
Mother: Helen Gold - M.S. Framer
One would have to assume her occupation is a M.S. Framer
I am going to google that and see what I get
Like Sancti said M.S. stands for maiden surname - Helen Gold's maiden surname was Frame(r). She probably would not have an occupation as she was a married female.
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Could it be that after the death of James Gold circa 1875, Ellen Frame remarried and her new name became Ferguson?
That would perhaps, explain the Ellen "F" Ferguson.
The IGI lists a birth for GEORGE FRAME GOLD, born in the parish of Carluke 22nd June 1871. Carluke has a common border with Cambusnethan, I think this must be him.
It looks like that George died in 1873.
Like I said there is a marriage of a Helen Frame and a Daniel Ferguson in 1874 at Cambusnethan.
Have you looked at George's birth or James's death entry yet Sysnode?
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The James Gold who died in 1875 was the husband of Janet Frame. His parents were Hugh Gold and Janet Jardine.
Kilsyth
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I think this is the certificate you want 628/00 0464
George Stoddart Frame or Ferguson born 20.4.1879 11.30a.m. Stewarton Street, Wishaw
Helen Ferguson previously Gold MS Frame married to Daniel Ferguson, coalminer, who she declares is not the father of the child and further that she has had no personal communication with him since he deserted her in September 1874.
Kilsyth
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Helen Frame married James Gold in 1861. She was a widow when she married Daniel Ferguson 12.6.1874.
Kilsyth
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I truly appreciate everyone's help with this.
I started with George Gold because I knew he was married to Elizabeth Grinnen; George and Elizabeth had two children, Robert and James
George's son James had a son named Howard
Howard had a son named Larry - Me
I have proof that George Gold was born on July 12, 1879 per copy of his World War I Draft Registration Card from September 12, 1918.
I also have proof that George Gold was 8-years old when he entered the United States in New York from Glasgow, Scotland via the Furnessia Ship on March 15, 1888 (George was 8-years old).
George was accompanied to New York by his mother Ellen F Ferguson (47-years old), his eldest brother Daniel Gold (age 26 years old), his sister Isabella Gold (24-years old), another sister Helen Gold (age 20-Years old), a brother John Gold (23-years old), a brother James (age 18-years old, another sister Maggie Gold (13-years old) all confirmed by the Furnessia Passenger Manifest log.
This gives me proof that Ellen F Furgeson was listed as the mother of the 7-Gold Children
After review of the ScotlandsPeople.gov I see that Helen I Gold was married to James Gold and lists 5 of the 7children listed on the Furnessia Ship Manifest.
Is it possoble that Helen died and James married Ellen F Furgeson and Ellen gave birth to Maggie and George before James dies? Birth dates provided by Kisyth, and Nel do not match to the confirmed dates I have on birth and death of George Gold. I will continue my search on ScotlandsPeople.gove and IGL
Thanks again to everyone and I will continue to share and hope you do the same.
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If James Gold died 1875 then she could not be a widow in 1874
Everything else fits ???
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James Gold married to Helen Frame died 4.12.1872 at Law Crossing, Carluke. His parents were Daniel Gold and Grace Clarkson. This is the same James Gold who married Helen in 1861 - names of parents match. On all the certificates I have seen Helen signed with a X.
Sysnode - If George Gold was 8 years old in 1888 when he entered New York that doesn't match the birth you gave of 12.7.1879.
Kilsyth
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That explains the marriages
George hadn't reached his 9th birthday in 1888 when he arrived in New York
It looks like the George born in 1879 is the George registered as George Stoddart Ferguson or Frame
The Stoddart may be a clue to his father's name.
Poor Relief records may give more info but they are not online
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George's sister - Margaret Frame Ferguson born 13.2.1875 4.30p.m. at 57 Stewarton Street, Wishaw to Daniel Ferguson and Helen Ferguson previously Gold MS Frame married 12.6.1874 Cambusnethan. Again signed Helen Ferguson her X mark.
Kilsyth
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It is a known fact that may people changed or shortened their names when going to America. I guess it is possible that Ferguson and Stoddart changed their names to Gold?
Kylsyth; would you be willing to email me the certificates that you have?
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My Great Grand Father George Gold was born on July 12, 1879; He died in 1926 in Patton, Pennsylvania. His Wife Elizabeth Grinnin was still alive when I was born.
All of the dates for this James Gold and Helen Frame/Ferguson do not match up to the confirmed dates I have. I only have these confirmed dates and confirmed names to go on with my search. I am not convinced that the James Gold and Helen Frame are the correct members of my family tree.
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I've sent you a personal message.
Kilsyth
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Thank you Kilsyth....I also responded
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Where did you get his birth date from?
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Sysnode,
Both Sancti and Kilsyth have given you excellent advice.
In the 1881 census for 8 McAlpine Street Wishaw, Ellen F. Ferguson is the head of the house, she has supplied the information that her marital status is "married" (not a widow). All of the 7 children living at that address are her sons and daughters, all with the surname Gold. She supplied this information and, if she was unable to write, as seems to be the case, perhaps a neighbour or friend, or even one of the older children, filled the census form in on her behalf.
So the 2 youngest children were given the wrong surname.
Kilsyth very kindly gave you the birth information for Margaret, this would have cost him money, he has tried his very best to help. The information tells you that she was born as Ferguson.
He also gave you the information that the George born to Helen Frame/Gold/Ferguson was illegitimate. It would make perfect sense to revert back to the name Gold for the last 2 children and it would help her respectability once she went overseas.
Now, you say you have George's date of birth from his attestation papers for WWI. The year is ok but the day and month wrong. Well, don't forget his mother would not be able to tell him the correct date and it is a very common occurance in family trees, my own included. I had a great aunt who died in 1974, she swore blind her birthday was 1st May 1888. After she died I sent to Ireland for her birth certificate, she was 2 months younger than she thought!
Cambusnethan parish was very small, about 3 families by the name of Gold are recorded in the 1881 census. Only one fits the description of yours, without a doubt.
Now you can look further back at the next generation - supplied by Kilsyth - Daniel Gold and Grace Clarkson.
It may interest you to know that in the 1881 census, 2 pages on from McAlpine St, at Graham's Land, there was a Daniel Gold aged 73 years, a widower, born Douglas parish Lanarkshire, living as a boarder with a family named McAuslin.If you agree that Daniel and Grace were the parents of James I can perhaps, give you some other information.
Regards,
Lodger
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Hello Lodger,
The only problem with that is - if Sysnode accepts that the George Ferguson/Frame born in 1879 is his ancestor then the Gold family are only related to his half siblings.
The Frame family are easy enough to find. John Frame was married to Isabella Paterson - the given name of Helen Frame Gold's first born daughter.
Regards,
Nel
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Hello Nel,
you are of course, absolutely correct. Unless he can find the Stoddart connection his "Gold" line will end with George. There is no doubt in my mind that this is the truth of the matter. The fact that George subsequently gave his birth date as July 12th is not lost on me, or others who know that it is a very easy date to remember if you have a Scots/Irish Protestant background. If he didn't know his real date, then 12th July would do nicely.
Lodger
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I think this is the certificate you want 628/00 0464
George Stoddart Frame or Ferguson born 20.4.1879 11.30a.m. Stewarton Street, Wishaw
Helen Ferguson previously Gold MS Frame married to Daniel Ferguson, coalminer, who she declares is not the father of the child and further that she has had no personal communication with him since he deserted her in September 1874.
Kilsyth
The above shows clearly that George was not a 'Gold' and his father was not Daniel Ferguson and also the real father has not been recorded.
Sysnode can really only research the maternal line of Frame.
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To Lodger,
After thorough research on ScotlandsPeople, and about $50.00 later I total agree with you regarding George Gold. We will probably never know who his dad was. I also found a match that James Gold's parents are Daniel Gold and Grace Clarkson. Also, found that Daniel Gold was married to a Elizabeth Donaldson and they had three children (William, Margaret, Grace)
I would be interested in any further information that you would like to share.
As for George Gold; his middle name is Stoddart. All I can do is try and search out any Stoddarts that lived in the area that may have had contact with Ellen Frame Ferguson. Your thoughts?
Regards
Sysnode
aka - Larry
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Can I jump in here??
I am descended from (H)Ellen Frame/Gold/Ferguson and have been interested in finding out what happened to her after 1881. I think everyone now has the correct story regarding her children (!) but I'm puzzled about who went to America. I know that Isabella (her daughter) married in Larkhall in Dec 1887 so did she go out to America as well with her brothers and sisters? Is the passenger manifest of the ship online so I can check?
From my records, Helen Frame and James Gold had 7 children but it looks like 2 (George Frame Gold and Robert Frame Gold) may have died - these were the youngest. Then Margaret was the daughter of Helen and Daniel Ferguson and finally George was illegitimate. So she did have 7 children by the 1880s - did all of them go with her???
Thanks in advance!
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Dear Weered
You can contact me at (*). I have the ship manifest and can provide answers to all your questions. I also have the burial location of Helen Frame/Ellen F Ferguson
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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If you want to send me a personal message then we cancorrespond like that?
I live in Central Scotland so can always help if you want to go back further or if you want to try and find graves etc.
Regards...
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Sysnode,
P.S....I have Daniel Gold marrying Elizabeth Donaldson (3rd wife) in 1872 - when he would have been about 64 years old, she was about 53. Are you sure you have the right children????
Weered (Nancy)
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I have a marriage certificate for Daniel Ferguson and Helen F Frame.
Also I have birth certificate for George George in which Helen F Frame indicates that Daniel Ferguson is not the father as she has had no personal contact with him as he deserted her 4-months after their marriage and George was born two years after her marriage to Daniel Ferguson. If you go on Ancestry.com I have uploaded all those certificates and you can download them for yourself.
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Sysnode,
Thanks but I already have all this information about the family.
I'm looking for what happened to the family (i.e. Helen and her children) when they went to the US. Isabella was married before you say she went to the US which I find confusing as she would have been Isabella Cleghorn.
Can you help?
You do have the right family but just for the record Daniel Gold and Elizabeth Donaldson had no children...they were too old...but he had his children with Grace Clarkson.
Regrds
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Let's just be clear....I was searching for the parents of George Gold. I discovered that George Gold's mother is Ellen F Ferguson, (aka....Helen Frame). Helen/Ellen married a James Gold and had 5-children with James. James died (1872), young leaving her with 5-young children. Helen/Ellen remarried in Jun/1874 to Daniel Ferguson. Daniel Ferguson deserted Helen/Ellen in Sep/1874 leaving her with a 6th child by the name of Maggie Ferguson. Helen/Ellen gave birth to her 7th child, George Stoddart Frame/Ferguson in April 20, 1879. George's Birth Statutory indicated by Helen/Ellen that Daniel Ferguson was not his father because she had not personal contact with himj since Sep/1874 when he deserted her.
Ellen Ferguson took all 7-children and arrived in New York on March 15, 1888. George, the youngest of the 7-children was 8-years old. Her other children are as follows:
1. Daniel Gold (born 1861)
2. Isabella Gold (born 1864)
3. John Gold (born 1866)
4. Helen Gold (born 1868)
5. James Gold (born 1870)
6. Maggie Ferguson (born 1875)
7. George Stoddart Frame/Ferguson Gold
I am attempting to track down the first 5-children to see if any of their children/grand children are still alive and living in the Pennsyvania area. Since Helen/Ellen Gold/Ferguson died in Coal Glen, Pennsyvania it leads me to believe that her children all must have settled in and around that area of Pennsyvania. George Gold, (my great grand father), is buried in Patton, Pennsylvania.
If I find out anything on Isabella, I will definately post here for you. You are welcome to visit my family tree on Ancestry.com listed as the Gold/McClintock Family Tree.
Are you a decendant of Isabella, (daugher of Helen/Ellen F Gold/Ferguson?
Regards
Larry Gold
(a.k.a Sysnode)
You are welcome to communicate via my email: (*)
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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To All Whom Have Communicated With Me On This Subject/Topic
I have taken all the data provided by those in this chat along with information gathered on Ancestry.com. From what I can see and understand:
Helen Frame-Gold-Ferguson:
Born abt 1841
Census 1851 - Cambusnethan, Lanarkshire, Scotland
1861 - Married James Gold
1861 - Domestic Servant
1871 - residence Cambusnethan Lanaarkshire, Scotland
1872 - Widoed (James Gold Died)
1872 - Children at time of Jame's Death: Daniel, Isabella, Helen, John, & James
1874 - June/12th; Married Daniel Ferguson
1874 - Sep; Daniel Ferguson deserted Helen
1875 - Helen gave birth to Maggie Fergeson
1879 - Apr/20th; Gave birth to George Stoddart Frame and/or Ferguson (Illegitimate Child - Father unknown)
1881 - Census lists Helen as Ellen with the following Children; Daniel, Isabella, Helen, Joh, James, Maggie, and George
1887 - Decides to leave for America; Ship Manifest lists the following; Helen Gold with James/18, Margt/11, George/8, and Grace/6 (not sure where Grace came from); apparently not all 7-children went with Helen; IF this is the same Helen/Ellen
1888 - January - arrived Port of New York
????? - No further informationi on Helen F Ferguson
If anyone has any additional information I would be truly greatful
George Gold (a.k.a George Stoddart Frame and/or Ferguson) went on to marry and have 3-sons
I continue to be obsessed with Helen's family and decendants.
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Nancy (Weered),
I hit a breakthrough in locating some of Ellen Frame-Gold-Ferguson family, after they arrived in the United Status on March 15, 1888.
Ellen and her children appear to have settled in the Coal Glen, Pennsylvania area. Ellen's daugther Margaret married William Kane. They are both buried in the Beechtree Cemetery in Jefferson County. I have photos of their tombstones.
Margaret: Feb 13, 1875 - July 5, 1928
I am unable to locate anything on Ellen, but one strange yet exciting find was Margaret's Brother John R Gold (Jan 25, 1866 - 7/25/1892) buried here and his tombstone says, Son of James and Ellen Gold. John did not accompany this mother to the states on March 15, 1888. I have a ship manifest that proves he came over for a short visit twice. Apparently during his second visit his pasted away and they buried him in the cemetery where Margaret and her husband are buried. This find brought tears to my eyes.
Let me know if you find anything further on this family
Regards
Larry