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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: sunnylew on Saturday 16 April 11 06:47 BST (UK)
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One of the things that started my interest in genealogy was the revelation that my grandfather was not my grandfather and that one of my mother's great grandmothers was aboriginal.
I felt sure I could prove or disprove this, but after a couple of years, now I have traced every one of my mothers forebears to the ship they came in on but one - the same woman who family stories say was an aboriginal.
Her I can find nothing of at all apart from her first name as the mother on a birth record.
At the moment I hope to use genetic testing to prove or disprove whether we have aboriginal ancestry.
I know there are all manner of different tests, and it seems to be almost pot luck when testing, so I was hoping someone would have a better idea than I on the most appropriate company or test.
'Lizzy' was the mother of Elizabeth, the mother of Mary, the mother of Charles, the father of Susan (who will give the DNA sample).
Will a mitochondrial DNA test help prove Lizzy's background?
I really appreciate anyone's insight.
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Hi Sunnylew,
I was involved in the National Geographic world wide genetic testing a couple of years ago. You would need to get Charles maternal side tested. If you do have aboriginal DNA it should be a specific gene and should be able to be detected. It is a very simple test of a check swab from inside the mouth or blood test (I think), the one I did was a check swab. The testing places have quite a few tests so you would need to contact them or view their website to try and narrow down the best one for you. You more than likely know this - goodluck. Have you tried this nationalgeographic.com/genographic.
Regards
Reoinna
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Hi Reoinna,
Thanks for your reply. I'll give national geographic a look.
In terms of Charles' maternal side - that's my main concern. My mother is the closest I can get.
Will the one male in the tree mess up our chances for mitochondrial DNA tests to work?
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Hi Sunnylew,
I dont know enough to say - but I do know that with a male than can can test for the mothers side which traces her female genetics from her direct line of females. MtDNA is also passed down from generation to generation unchanged. So we share the same mtDNA-type as our mother, our maternal grandmother, our maternal great-grandmother and so on. In fact the exact same mtDNA code will track our direct genetic line back until the point at which a natural mutation in the mtDNA code occurred To have male DNA tested will give you both genetic origin history of their previous lineage. With a female they are limited to be only able to test for the female line. Y chromosome is passed down exclusively from father to son, the most popular ancestry tests are Y chromosome (Y-DNA) testing and mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) testing which test direct-line paternal and maternal ancestry, respectively. The DNA tests for example, to determine a person's comprehensive genetic make-up and/or ethnic origins, so if you do have the halogroup for aboriginal genetics it should be able to be detected. If you are a female and you use your DNA it will show your mothers, her mother, her mother and her mother so forth and not the fathers mother. So if it is your mother then it will show only her direct line of females. It you have a male it will show both. I think I am probably confusing you! Sorry! Good luck again.
Reoinna
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I have a similar problem. My father was born the day after my grandparents were married. My grandmother was working in service up to the date of the marriage.
My grandfather was of Scottish descent. My grandmother's employers were German Jews. Would the DNA ancestry test be able to prove my paternal line as Celtic or Jewish?
I am a little concerned that these tests may be a bit of an expensive gimmick. Can anyone advise me please.
Brian
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Hi Brian,
All I can add is that I did have it done. The test I had done was for maternal DNA. As a male you can get both paternal and maternal done, which may help you. My female line on my mothers side shows that my ancestors were either Scandanavian (Viking), Celtic or the Gauls. Still a huge range and not as distinctive as I would have liked. However there are other tests I can get done. If my brother was to be tested they would find out more as well. I personally think it is great. I cannot afford to get more testing done at this time however I most certainly will in the future. Read up about it and make up your mind. I am glad and it did help me in my quest for answers. As with Aboriginal DNA I think Jewish DNA is a specific marker as well. Scottish you may find out that you to are from the same Halogroup as me - U. Good luck. ;)
Regards
Reoinna
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Thanks for your reply Reoinna
I will probably go ahead with both male and female with 67 markers. That seems to be reasonable.
By the way, I have a John Brady who was my great, great, great grandfather. He lived in Fremington, North Devon (UK) but gave his birth as Ireland in c1760. I have no further details so if you find a spare one let me know.
Brian
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DNA Tribes do DNA for Indigenous communities around the world.
Regards,
Caroline
www.armidalehistory.com
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Hello Sunnyview
There is a long topic in The Common Room, headed DNA Testing.....
started by Tisy which you might care to read.
It gets a bit technical at times, and confusing, but might answer some of your questions.
Sorry but I don't know how to put a link through to it but there has been a post to it in the last couple of days so if you go to The Common Room forum you should find it fairly easily.
WRT can it prove / disprove your heritage, I'm sure it can. A cousin of mine (male) in Canada had his DNA tested - sorry don't know the details - a couple of years ago and he said they told him he had "deep West African roots" which pleased us no end.
We are both descended from Billy Blue (Blue's Point) and while we can't prove where he was born, we are pretty sure he or his family came from Jamaica and the black slaves there in the West Indies originally came from Africa. We mainly wanted to disprove those speculations that he was somehow of American Indian stock.
Good luck with your quest.
Dawn M
Dawn M
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Thanks Caroline and Dawn,
I'll give those places a try.
I'm sure it's possible - It's just I fear that the generic tests only look at particular branches of the many possible ones - father to father and mother to mother and I need something a touch different.
Lewis
PS I didn't know about Blue's Point's origins. I used to live at the next Point - McMahons when I was a student. Many was the time we wandered up to Blue's Point Cafe in our pajamas on a Saturday morning just because we could.
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Thanks for your reply Reoinna
I will probably go ahead with both male and female with 67 markers. That seems to be reasonable.
By the way, I have a John Brady who was my great, great, great grandfather. He lived in Fremington, North Devon (UK) but gave his birth as Ireland in c1760. I have no further details so if you find a spare one let me know.
Brian
Brian, I also have a great x 3 grandfather John Brady who lived in Fremington - this is probably the same person. He married a lady called Ursula and had a daughter Mary Ann Brady b. Fremington 1807 died 1855. How do you know John Brady was born in Ireland c1760?
Many thanks
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Hi Durhamboy and welcome to Rootschat. :D
I can't answer your first question, but the origin of the name "BRADY" is Irish and can be explained by the continued migration across the Irish sea of both Irish and Scot's.
The origins of the Surname BRADY are explained here.
http://www.houseofnames.com/brady-family-crest
Neil
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Hi Cousin
Many years ago, about 65yrs in fact, my grandmother, Charlotte Elizabeth Toms, told me how her grandfather came over from Ireland. His name was O’Brady but he dropped the O on arrival in England. I subsequently found that her grandfather, James Brady, was born in Fremington. Like most family stories it is probably true but a generation or so out..I have therefore assumed that John Brady was born in Ireland. I have taken the approx birth date from his burial records.
I am descended from James Brady and Ursula Shambrook via their daughter, Ursula Jane Cleverdon Brady..
If you have evidence that John was not born in Ireland I would like to hear of it.
Regards
Brian
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Hi Cousin Brian, Thanks for the reply. I too am sure that Brady is an Irish name and it could well be that John Brady did come over from Ireland to Fremington. I will take a look at the 1841 UK census. According to my research, and to be honest I'm not sure where I got it from, it was a John Brady that married an Ursula (I don't know Ursula's surname) and you seem to have a James Brady that married an Ursula Shambrook. I'm pretty sure we are talking about the same people as I don't think that there were any other Brady's in Fremington at the time. So am I right in thinking that John and James Brady are the same person or is James the son of John?
You say that you have John Brady's burial record - can you tell me exactly what that says, the date of burial and where buried? I am wondering if he was buried at St. Peter's in Fremington. I live nearby and could go and try to find his grave.
Regards, Andy
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Hi Andy
John Brady and Ursula Shambrook were married at Fremington in 1805.
John Brady was buried at Fremington in 1836 aged 75. His wife, Ursula (Shambrook, from Morwenstow) was also buried at Fremington in 1829 aged 51. Their son, James Brady (b.1819)moved to Plymouth and worked as a stonemason at the sugar refinery. He married jane Cleverdon and they had a daughter Jane Elizabeth Cleverdon Brady who married Frances Edwin Pederick Toms. Their daughter Charlotte Elizabeth Toms was my grandmother. I last visited Fremington in 1979,before I moved to New Zealand. I remember many thatched cottages. but I did not visit the church. Good luck with your research. Brian
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Sunnylew,
The best place for your question to be answered is here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,432.0.html
This is where the experts are.
You have just missed (finished two days ago) a sale here:
http://www.familytreedna.com/products.aspx
However the cost of the Family FInder test remains at the reduced rate (total cost including postage comes to $106). I just ordered one myself.
I suspect this may be the kind of test you need (autosomal), however your results will not tell you which branch of your family the results come from. If you already have done substantial amount of research on your tree, this might be the test for you to go for as you will have a fair idea of the origins of each branch of your family. I am just learning about DNA testing so would advise that you ask the opinion of those more knowledgable on the DNA forum.
There is also a lot of information on the FTDNA site which may help you make your decision. There are other companies which may be better suited to your needs. Once again, those on the DNA forum will be able to advise you.
PS. You do not need to provide a blood sample for DNA testing. Depending on what company you test with, it is either a cheek or spit sample.
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Hi Andy
John Brady and Ursula Shambrook were married at Fremington in 1805.
John Brady was buried at Fremington in 1836 aged 75. His wife, Ursula (Shambrook, from Morwenstow) was also buried at Fremington in 1829 aged 51. Their son, James Brady (b.1819)moved to Plymouth and worked as a stonemason at the sugar refinery. He married jane Cleverdon and they had a daughter Jane Elizabeth Cleverdon Brady who married Frances Edwin Pederick Toms. Their daughter Charlotte Elizabeth Toms was my grandmother. I last visited Fremington in 1979,before I moved to New Zealand. I remember many thatched cottages. but I did not visit the church. Good luck with your research. Brian
I'm intrigued by this. This is very close to the version I've got but not quite.
In my version, Francis Edwin Pederick Toms was married to Ursula Jane Cleverdon Brady, born in 1860. The 1891 census has Francis Ed Tams (sic), born abt 1841, wife Ursula J C Tams (sic), born abt 1860. My relative is their son Francis James Toms.
I have found a baptism record for Ursula Jane Cleverton(sic) Brady, baptised in Charles Martyr, Plymouth, Devon on 30th January 1860. The father is noted as James Brady (Mason), mother Elizabeth and they are living in 25 John Street. Also a marriage record showing she married Francis Edwin Pederick Toms in 1879.
I do have James Brady as the son of John Brady and Ursula Shambrook, married in Fremington in 1805, same as you. But it seems so strange that the Jane Cleverdon name is in there but Ursula Jane Cleverdon Brady seems to be the daughter of Elizabeth (maiden name unknown) not Jane Cleverdon.
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Hi Andy
So sorry to confuse you but I missed out a generation
Jane Cleverdon, daughter of John and Priscilla Cleverdon never married. She had four children, Elizabeth 1827, Walter, Eliza and Thomas.
Elizabeth married James Brady.
Hope that makes more sense. I never did find the 1891 census, I will try TAMS
If you are descended from Francis Toms, brother of Charlotte Elizabeth Toms, I have a family group photograph and he may be on it. I will look it out.
Regards Brian
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Census 1891
Russell? St, St Sidwell parish, Exeter
Francis Ed TOMS 35, compositor, b Plymouth
Ursula J C TOMS 31, b Plymouth
Ursula R TOMS 10, b Plymouth
Bepie C TOMS 8, b Stepney (image looks like Bessie)
Charlotte J TOMS, 6, b Stepney
Francis J TOMS 4, b Exeter
Ada TOMS 3 months, b Exeter
In 1881 they were in Mile End (London), indexed as "Jones"
By 1901 Ursula Jane is a widow living in Exeter with Charlotte Elizabeth, Francis James, Ada, Ursula Rose COX and Ursula Rose's husband, Francis Henry COX. Ursula Jane is "bag maker, working at home". Indexed by Ancestry as Marton Jane TOMS ::)
Her death is noted Jun qr 1891, registered Exeter. Francis Edwin TOMS death was registered in Exeter, Mar qr 1900. Both died in their 40s :(
There are some very creative transcriptions for this family!
Judith
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Hi Andy
So sorry to confuse you but I missed out a generation
Jane Cleverdon, daughter of John and Priscilla Cleverdon never married. She had four children, Elizabeth 1827, Walter, Eliza and Thomas.
Elizabeth married James Brady.
Hope that makes more sense. I never did find the 1891 census, I will try TAMS
If you are descended from Francis Toms, brother of Charlotte Elizabeth Toms, I have a family group photograph and he may be on it. I will look it out.
Regards Brian
Thanks Brian, would be fantastic if there is a photo of him. After I replied I thought I'd found a baptism record for Elizabeth - you've confirmed that and taken me a generation further back. Much appreciated.
Claire
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There are some very creative transcriptions for this family!
Judith
There certainly are and yes I'm pretty sure it's Bessie.
Thanks, hadn't thought of looking under Jones.
Claire
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Hi,
Buried at Exeter Higher Cemetery at the same location.
Francis Edwin Penerick Toms, 44, Sidwell Parish
Sect C, Div 357B, No 59.
Burial, 31st March 1900, Church burial.
Ursula Jane Toms, 41, Sidwell Parish.
Sect C, Div 357B, No 59.
Burial, 5th June 1901, Church burial
Gerry
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Thankyou Clare, Gerry and Judith.....very helpful
I will try and upload a Toms family photo
Brian
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TOMS FAMILY PHOTO 1938
I have a family photo that includes
Charlotte Elizabeth Toms
Ursula Rose Toms
Bessie Toms
Edward Toms (Don't know him )(Could he be Francis?)
Eddie Toms (son of Edward)(Did Francis have a son Eddie?)
I tried to upload it but failed. If anyone wants a scan please send me your email address.
Brian
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Brian - how old do the unknown TOMs seem to be in the photo?
Francis Edwin died in 1900 and Ursula Jane in 1901. There was no Edward listed with Ursula Jane in the 1901 census.
Francis J was born about 1887 so I suppose he could have fathered a child by 1905-ish. Otherwise I wonder if Edward is a brother of Francis Edwin? He would be an old man by 1938 though.
Judith
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Francis J was born about 1887 so I suppose he could have fathered a child by 1905-ish. Otherwise I wonder if Edward is a brother of Francis Edwin? He would be an old man by 1938 though.
Judith
Francis J had two children - Edwin Francis Llewelyn Toms (known as Ted in later years but I suppose he might have been Eddie when younger?) in 1914 and Bessie Priscilla Toms in 1919.
Claire
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James Brady (b.1819) moved to Plymouth and worked as a stonemason at the sugar refinery.
Brian
I'd be grateful to know the evidence for the above quote, please. Can't pick it up from 51, 71-91 censuses, so perhaps on a cert of one sort or another.
I'd like to add James to my database (see below), but only add detail that can be referenced.
James would have worked at the Mill Lane refinery run by ...
1830s BRYANT & JAMES (Mill Lane)
1838-56 BRYANT & BURNELL (Mill Lane)
1851 BENSON Gerd & John (Mill St Sugar House)
1851 BRYANT James, jun. (Mill St Sugar House)
1890 BATES, Sir Edward
... and there are further details of the refinery at www.mawer.clara.net/loc-plym.html . Hope of interest.
Bryan
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Hello Bryan
Thanks for the info ref Sugar Refinery
1861 Census for Charles Plymouth
RG9 1436 page (looks like 22,24 or 28) not sure
Seymoor St No 142
James Brady (looks like Brog) aged 42 Mason at Sugar Refinery Devon Fremington
Elizabeth ditto aged 41 Cornwall Morwenstow
On the same page there are two other workers at the sugar refinery
The writing is terrible
Brian
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Hi Clare, Judith
I have rechecked my original notes.
Yes it was Edward aged about 50 (in 1938) but his son is aged about late twenties and his name was Teddy (I transcribed this as Eddie, sorry) He is certainly not the husband of either Bessie nor Ursula. Could it be Francis under a "family name" to avoid confusion with his father?
O have joined the local Seniornet to learn how to upload photos.
Brian
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Removed - double up info, post repeated below - can I come to the Seniornet classes as well? ::) 8) :P
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Francis J had two children - Edwin Francis Llewelyn Toms (known as Ted in later years but I suppose he might have been Eddie when younger?) in 1914 and Bessie Priscilla Toms in 1919.
Claire
Aha - according to this info from Claire (Reply #25) the younger man may well be Francis J's child. :D
Judith
[/quote]
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I was under the impression Bessie, James' sister, died in childhood. How old is the Bessie in the picture? Bessie Priscilla, James' daughter, would have been 19.
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Bessie Priscilla, daughter of FEPToms and UJCTpms, was born in 1883 and married in 1906, The picture was taken in 1938 so Bessie would be 55yrs.
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Bessie Priscilla, daughter of FEPToms and UJCTpms, was born in 1883 and married in 1906, The picture was taken in 1938 so Bessie would be 55yrs.
That's very curious. I was told that FJToms named his daughter Bessie Priscilla after a sister he lost in childhood, hence the break from the family name Ursula. Wonder how that story started?
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I have her marriage cert.
Bessie Priscilla Toms married Thomas Arthur Bingham 15th Sept 1906
at Newport Wales. Fathers name Francis Edwin Pederick Toms
I remember in about 1946 going to Wales to visit my grandmothers sisters It must have been them. I remember we had to get water from the well.
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Thank you, Brian.
A***y have transcribed it as Bradg, but reads as Brady at a struggle. Have edited it.
Three more on same page … excellent.
Only one refinery there at that time so easy to place them.
Bryan
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Bryan
Do you happen to have a photo of the Mill St Sugar Refinery? If so I would like a scan.
Brian
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Questions like this always prompt me to go looking for further info that may be available since I did the research. My initial reaction was no, but on searching Google Images there are indeed pictures of the old sugarhouse building, then owned by woollen merchants Butt, Vosper & Knight.
http://www.plymouth.gov.uk/plymouthreconstruction/notice1053.html
http://www.plymouth.gov.uk/plymouthreconstruction/notice1054.html
http://www.plymouth.gov.uk/plymouthreconstruction/notice1055.html
Thank you, Brian ... will add links to webpage.
Bryan
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Wow Thanks Bryan
I suppose a stonemason s job was to keep the building fabric in good repair.
I think I will make more use of Rootschat
Regards
Brian