RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: blackfacesheep on Saturday 09 April 11 14:19 BST (UK)
-
! am very new to family research and I'm trying to find information on my great grandparents. My great grandfather, John Steel, was born in 1836 in Barony, Lanark, and I believe his parents to be John Steel and Mary Neilson. Does anyone have information about this family line?
-
Hi and welcome to Rootschat
You say that "you believe" his parents were John & Mary. If he married after 1855 - his parents names will be shown on his marriage cert plus his mothers maiden name.
Who did John junior marry and when?
You can search for his marriage on Scotlands People but will have to purchase credits to view the entry
www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
The 1841 for Barony only has one entry in that age range (1835) and parents were John & Grace
There is an entry b 1838 - parents John & Mary and another b 1839 parents James and Ann
-
hi all :)
a welcome from me as well
online trees have his wife as sarah jane owens
but no one seems to have their marriage or john's death :-\
early children born england , later ones born scotland
john born 19th aug. 1836 barony glasgow
ev
-
Thank you CaroleW and ev.
That is a great start for me even though it adds to the confusion. I have John Steel as born in "Barony,Lanark,Scotland" on !9th August 1836 and his parents are listed as John Steel and Mary Neilson. This info came from api.familysearch.org. My father, Alexander Garroch Steel (born Birkenhead, Cheshire 1904), passed away in 1983 without passing on much information, other than that his father's name was Robert Neilson Steel (born Lancashire) and his mother was Mary Jane McGuigan (born Scotland). I have been trying to trace possible forebears from this scant information.
-
Hi Blackfacesheep
Had a look on the IGI and found the following, (all are extracted entries, so from the registers themselves rather than submitted by other researchers);
John Steel married Mary Neilson 26 Jul 1831 Barony, Lanarkshire, her father listed as John Neilson
children of John and Mary;
Margaret Baird Steil [sic] born 7 May 1832 Barony
Mary Steel born 7 Dec 1833 Barony
Marion Steel born 24 Jan 1835 Barony
John Steel born 19 Aug 1836 Barony
Jeanie Steel born 22 Apr 1838 Barony
Isabella Steel born 30 Jan 1840 Barony
Best to double check IGI entries on Scotland's People of course.
Mo :)
-
Thank you Momamg.
A cousin in Birkenhead has told me that we are related to James Beaumont Neilson but we thought he might be drawing a rather long bow. Now, perhaps not. Such a connection might explain why the family retained Neilson as a middle name (ie. to capitalise on the fame :) Could Mary Neilson's father be a brother of James Beaumont?
My father told me that his older brothers were nicknamed
"The Steel Warriors" for their war service to Britain and their seafaring pursuits. Their father, Robert Neilson Steel, was also in seafaring and sailed on the windjammers to Australia from the Birkenhead docks in the late 1800s. My father was in the RAN and retired as head of naval intelligence in Sydney.
-
Your welcome :D
Looked some more for your family. There is an extensive tree on An*try but you'd need to do your own detective work through Scotland's People to verify. Tried to find them in census without much luck but a possible 'hit' (info from transcript not original record);
1841 Census Glasgow St Peter, York Street
John Steel age 40 shoemaker born Lanarkshire
Mary Steel 7 b. Lanarkshire
Merion Steel 6 b. Lanarkshire
John Steel 4 b. Lanarkshire
Jean Steel 3 b. Lanarkshire
Mary Park 16 b. Lanarkshire
Euphemia McPherson 25 b. Scotland
Don't know where mother Mary is, or daughters Margaret 9 and Isabella 0-1
Mo
-
Blackfacesheep,
Starting with your father and working back I've found your grandparent's marriage, but although your grandfather was born in Lancashire they actually married in Scotland.
19 March 1890.
Robert Steel, a Seaman in the Merchant Service who was a widower (which may come as a surprise to you)
Mary Jane McGuigan, age 26, was a Spinster and described herself as a Dressmaker.
The marriage appears to have taken place at Mair or Muir Street in Govan, in Glasgow.
Robert's father was John Steel, Chief Officer in the Merchant Service, and his mother was Jane Steel, MS (maiden surname) Owens, so that ties in with the information Momamg has already found for you, and the family story you started with.
Mary's father was Thomas McGuigan, who was deceased but his occupation had been Livestock Dealer, and her mother was Margaret Myles. Her mother had obviouly married since Thomas McGuigan's death as she gives 3 surnames, Margaret Myles, previously McGuigan, MS McKie
What I find fascinating is that the Minister who officiated was the Minister of the church where my own great great grandfather was working as a City Missionary at the time
If you go to SP (scotlandspeople.gov.uk) you can do the search and look at the original record. You need to register, which is free, as is initial searching, but you need to buy credits to look at the results you want to view in detail. This would be worth your while viewing as it will give you a copy of the original certificate.
Added: Sorry, I should have given you the reference for the marriage certificate. It's 646/01 0037.
Based on the information on that you should now be able to find more detail on John Steel and Jane Owens because if, with luck, they married in Scotland as well you will be able to find their marriage with details of their parents, which may add to what Momamg has already found. (or may not, there's a lot already been posted).
I've also sent you a PM (personal message). Look at the very top line of the site, at the right hand corner, and it should tell you there is something in your site inbox
-
i did notice this possible marriage on freeBMD when searching before
john steel/jane owens liverpool 1st quarter 1858
however there are another 2 people on the page so not sure about that :-\
ev
-
Maggie1895 you have made my day!!! :
Thank you so much for all that information.
Jane Owens was one of the names that came up in my searching but, with nothing else to go by, she was only one of several "contenders" for John's wife. It was, indeed, a surprise to learn that Robert had been married before he married my grandmother and I wonder if my father even knew that, being the second youngest in the family. Parents often didn't share this information with their children in those days.
Another intriguing matter is that Mary McGuigan's mother's maiden name was McKie. My father always told us that we belonged to Clan Mackay. Perhaps that is the connection, or perhaps the connection is through the Neilsons??
Anyway, I can't thank you enough for your generous help in my search.
-
Blacksheepface, you are very welcome. I've had so much help and advice myself from this board since I joined.
Since I posted ev has found John and Janet's marriage. In England, unfortunately, so you won't get the same amount of detail that you do on the Scottish certificates but it should give you confirmation of their father's names if you send for the certificate.
-
Another little bit for the jigsaw:
1891 census
John Steel, age 53, Mariner, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Address:
54 Mair Street, Govan - the address that Robert and Mary Jane were married at the previous year
Rest of household:
Angus McKechnie, 30, Blacksmith, born Dumbarton
Mary McKechnie, 30, born England
Mary McKechnie, age 8, born Glasgow
Angus McKechnie, 1 year 7 months, born Glasgow
Mary McKechnie (the wife and mother) has named John Steel as her father on her return, and John confirms this by giving his 'relationship to Head of Household' as 'Father in Law'.
So Mary was Robert's sister, and that's why Robert and Mary Jane gave the same address on their marriage lines. Nowadays that wouldn't raise an eyebrow but this was 1890. They were staying quite respectably with his sister and her husband.
Census reference is Parish: Govan; ED: 2; Page: 8; Line: 13; Roll: CSSCT1891_300; Year: 1891. I found the information on a search site but to see the copy of the original sheet you are back going to SP again
-
IGI family search has -
john ne(i?)lson steel birth 10th feb. 1863 govan lanarkshire scotland
walter neilson steel birth 8th feb. 1865 govan lanark
william neilson steel birth 22nd feb 1868 tradeston glasgow lanark
parents john steel and jane owen(s)
ev
-
feeding off ev's post with the birthdates, here they are in the 1871 census:
11 Marlow Street, Govan
John is 34 and a Seaman
Jane is 35, the first clue I think we have to her birth year, born in England
Children:
Henry 14, Robert 12, Mary 10, John 8, Walter 6.
The elder 3 were born in England, John and Walter in Glasgow
(sadly just realised no record of William)
added: and here's the family in 1861 with an English address:
They are in the West Derby area of Lancashire, at No. 31 Kensington or possible Kissington(?)
Jane is 26 and the Head of the Household. She lists herself as 'Seaman's wife', born in Liverpool
John Henry is 4, Robert Nilson (sic) is 3, Mary Nilson is 3 months, and there is a 15 year old Servant, Rose Whalagg or Whabagg, from Dublin, Ireland.
(I think Rose's entry isthe first time I've seen the place in Ireland specified, I wish that same enumerator had taken the details for some of my relatives)
RG9/ 2731/ 86 p 16;
The interesting thing is that Neilson appears for both Robert and Mary, even though mis-spelled on the form, but for Henry he is listed as John Henry. He's 4, and 10 years later Henry is shown as 14, so it's not the sad case of one child dying and their using the name again, it has to be the same boy. So if ever you search for Henry's birth of any reason, he may be listed as John.
-
Maggie895
This is all quite fascinating. I've been out all day so need to get my mind back into gear. Little things keep coming back to me from my father's conversations when I was a child but it appears from the dates you have been able to give me, it must have been my great grand father, John, who sailed on the old windjammers around Cape Horn to Australia as, by the time Robert was sailing here (and I know he did), there were steam ships and the Suez canal had been built. My father spoke about tales of icy, salt encrusted sails being rolled during storms only to be blown back out by gusts of wind, taking the sailor's fingernails with them. These stories must have come from his grand father, John, and not his father.
Back to the family members. It now also appears possible that Robert had other children before he married my grandmother, Mary Jane, as he was listed as "widower" when he married her. So intriguing and tantalisingly elusive :)So much more to learn.
-
Last try! Robert was 29 when he married in 1890 as a widower, so I'm assuming any children of the first marriage must have been born between 1880 and 1890.
If you search Lanarkshire births for Steel, there are 79 pages so quite hopeless but if you search putting Neilson into the forename, 4 came up. You'd need to look at the certificates at 5 credits a time to see if Robert is the father - they could be children of his brothers who would also be liable to use the family name. Here they are for what it's worth (not all the list came up as 1880-90 so some you already know of)
Martha Neilson Steel, born 1883 Bridgeton, Glasgow Ref 644/01 1123
Walter Neilson Steel, born 1887 Kinning Park, Glasgow Ref 644/14 0552
The list also gave
Walter, born 1865 Govan, Ref 646/01 0138 - I think you already know of him, and
William, born 1868, Tradeston, Ref 644/09 0356
As I remember it, they are Robert's younger brothers?
The sad but very common explanation of Robert losing his first wife could well be in childbirth. You may find a death certificate for a Mrs Steel in the area after, or within a few months, of the birth of Walter (assuming that he is Robert's son). That leaves a decent interval before the second marriage.
-
ev
Thank you for your input. Every little piece of information fills in another piece of the jigsaw and makes my own searching that much easier. As I said before, I'm totally new to this and find myself going up so many blind allies which all takes so much time.
The Neilsons are a curious bunch in that some retain the name and others drop it. I still haven't managed to find if or where James Beaumont Neilson fits into our family. :)
-
Maggie1895
Thank you again. You took the words right out of my mouth (or rather, keyboard) as I was also going to suggest childbirth as a possible cause of the death of Robert's first wife - very common in those days. I will now try and follow up on your suggestions. :)
-
Blackfacesheep, what really stuns - and delights - me is that I can sit here in the UK, and from what you have written I assume you are somewhere in Australia, and together with ev and others we can all work on something and discuss it instantly.
We are all hooked on finding our ancestors, and there are so many questions we wish we could put to them, I just wonder what they would have thought of us tracking them down in the ether like this?
-
Maggie1895
Yes, I am in Australia's southern highlands of NSW.
Isn't technology wonderful? We can access information our forebears could not have dreamed of. All those secrets never revealed when they were alive are now ours to discover.
My husband's great great grand father was an Irish convict, sent to Australia in 1831. Nobody in the family had any idea until a cousin began doing some research a few years ago and now they have a line traced back to the 1700s in Ireland (complete with DNA confirmation).
-
Hi,blackfacesheep,
These people are also in my family tree as gggrandparents were John steel and Jane Owens - I have their original marriage certificate here with my family papers. I wonder if you are related to the Robert Steel my dad told me about,whose son Jack went to Australia and daughter Margaret steel to New Jersey,USA?
Anyway,the above information gathered by these wonderful Rootschat helpers is definitely about my direct line,and I can confirm various pieces of the puzzle for you if you wish. Good luck with this addictive hunt that is our family tree! Islay
-
(Forgot to add that I know about the James Beaumont Neilson link too.)
-
Not very good with these computers,and can't see how to reply other than come here.
How fascinating that you knew Uncle Jack and had a close relationship him,and met up with Margaret's family in America. According to the 1901 census,there were other siblings too,that my dad didn't mention to me.
Harry,b1885
Robert,b1892
Frank,b1894
John,b1897
Margaret,b1898
Lilly,b1900
Alex,b 1904
Stewart,b1906
I see your dad there - did you know the other uncles and aunts too?
OK this is how the connection you wanted to know about fits into your tree.
Going back past Robert Neilson Steel's parents,John Steel and Jane Owens,his mother was Mary Neilson,daughter of John Neilson who was the brother of James Beaumont Neilson. John Neilson was in my opinion equally as important a man,and has an interesting history too,and was very wealthy.Worth a look!
-
How very interesting Islay.
Like you, I'm not good with computers and I've been struggling with negotiating my way around the site.
Yes, I also knew Uncle Stewart who settled in New Zealand and visited us when he was in port as he was in the merchant navy (as was Dad before he joined the Royal Australian navy). Stewart was a twin and the other twin died at birth. As well as meeting Aunt Margaret's family, I also met her in the 1960s when she visited Australia briefly with her husband. I have also met John and David Dodds who are Aunt Lil's sons. Both have visited Australia and I visited Liverpool, UK, in 1992.
There was a very strong seafaring tradition in the Steel family as I'm sure you already know. Cheers Blackfacesheep
-
Hi,Blackfacesheep,
To go on with the sea-faring theme,John Steel was the First Officer in "The City of Aggra" And you can trace some of her voyages through the internet,as well as see pictures of what the ship was like. I have a parchment - very large - of calligraphy that he whiled away the hours doing on these longs trips,and there is a man on Ancestry of a similar name who has his master mariner's certificate. I would love to have a copy of that! It absolutely amazes me that there are people all over the world,who have never met,and yet who each have a share of "my" history,and another piece of the puzzle.
Look up John Neilson.He founded the Summerlee works and was a rich and innovative man. Look up "The Faerie Queen",one of the first ever steam passenger boats that went to Largs for its maiden voyage. He financed the development of that exclusively.At one time he employed over 1000 men.(Or women!)
-
Hi Islay,
Yes, it is amazing that we are all linked and doing similar research from different parts of the world.
The man who has John Steel's mariners certificate is the grandson of Dad's brother, Robert, also named John Steel. If you send me your email address, I can put you in touch with him.
I will look up John Neilson. I did read quite a bit about JB Neilson and remember a brother being mentioned. I now realise that this person is our direct ancestor (my great great great grandfather). Fascinating! Gradually the pieces of the puzzle are coming together.
Do you know the occupation of the John Steel who married Mary Neilson? and do you know the name of that John Steel's father and mother? Do you know where those earlier family members lived? Was it Lanarkshire, Scotland, as I believe it was?
It is late here in Australia and time for me to get some sleep but will keep in touch.
Cheers. Blackfacesheep
-
Hi again,Blackfacesheep,
Hope you slept well. I will certainly give you my e-mail address,but not here on a public place. Do you know how else to send me yours so that I can reply with mine??!! Told you I was rubbish at these computers!
I would certainly also love a copy of the master mariner's certificate,so I'd be grateful if you could put me in touch with the gentleman who has it,if he wouldn't mind.Does anyone have any idea as to when John Steel died,or where? Can't track that piece of the puzzle down anywhere and would love to know!
Finally,in answer to your last three questions,yes,yes and yes,but would appreciate sending the information privately to you,as I have spent not only hours abut many,many pounds to find the information,and am reluctant to offer it to just anyone dipping in here.Best wishes,Islay
-
You can use the personal message system(PM) to exchange email addresses or other private information
Just click on the small green scroll to the left of the post of the person you wish to contact
Hope this helps
ev
-
Hi Islay,
I have to go out now for most of the day but when I'm home later I'll send a message through the PM system (if I can work out how to do it :-)
I know that John will be happy to send you a copy of the master mariners certificate as he has sent me a copy already. We met through a geneology site, too.
Will write as soon as I get a chance (hopefully tonight) but my daughter and grandson are arriving mid afternoon and things will be busy for a couple of days.
Cheers, Blackfacesheep.
-
Hi blackfacesheep and Islay 1,
Having enjoyed a dip into your family, as it were, last year, I got a flag that there were new replies. It's brilliant that you are in touch with each other - isn't Rootschat wonderful!!
-
Yes maggie1895 it is !!! and thanks to you we have more info than we would have otherwise found as well.
-
Totally agree that with Rootschat help we have enriched our experience of family research immeasurably - thank you for your help,support and encouragement! (Also I thank ev for the guidance on using your PM system.)I have so much enjoyed swapping memories of our snippets of family lore with Blackfacesheep,and making contact. Thank you,Rootschat.
-
We have had so much help from Rootschat members here, and since we last posted I have been searching unsuccessfully for a missing piece of our puzzle, and I wondered if I could ask one more thing. The story of John Neilson Steel has no ending yet!
The last I can see of him is on a 1891 census, living in Glasgow as father-in-law with Angus Mckechnie, but after that he disappears. I have looked for him on SP and also the deaths at sea ( he was a mariner, merchant service) but cannot locate him.
Born 1836, Barony,Glasgow he married Sarah Jane Owens in Liverpool, and the family relocated to Glasgow in the 1860/70s. Sarah Jane Owens died in 1893 in Govan, and on her death certificate she is married and not a widow, so John must have been alive in 1893. What is the end of his life story?
Any further help would be so much appreciated. Many thanks in advance, best wishes, Islay
-
I might perhaps have some more relatives to add to your tree.
James Beaumont Neilson's brother John had a son Walter who married Janet Fulton. Their son William, (born in Coatbridge on 24 December 1844, died in Glasgow 27 April 1921), married my 4th cousin 3 times removed, Alexina Guthrie Fraser (30 December 1857 - 19 June 1895). They had four sons, and I have some information about descendants. One of the sons emigrated to New Zealand and establshed a station which he named Summerlee.
If you are interested, PM me your e-mail address.
-
Thank you, Forfarian.
I too am descended from James Beaumont Neilson's older brother John. He was my g.g.g.grandfather, it was his daughter Mary who married John Steel senior, and their son John Steel junior whose death I am trying to discover.
Long lost albeit distant relatives.....how intriguing! Not sure how to send my email address privately to you. I'm a complete dunce with these computers, sorry!
Best wishes, Islay
-
Hi I am descended from that side also. He was my GGGrandad also. Do you have a photo of John Neilson at all?
-
Hallo SamMary,
I am sorry but I do not have any photographs of John Neilson or his family, I only wish I did! There must be some "out there" somewhere but I have yet to find one.
We must be related in a distant way, and I wish you well in your search. Do let me know if I can help you in any other way.
The people on Rootschat have been so helpful to me in the past. I am so grateful. Happy researching!
Islay