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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: portybelle on Friday 08 April 11 10:20 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find info on my great great grandfather Patrick Cain and his wife Eliza Cullen. I really don't have much to go on. From his death record in 1902, I know he was born around 1845 and his parents were Edward Cain and Mary ms McCran. From the 1891 Scotland census, I have found that he must have moved to Liverpool from Ireland as his children were born there. He is listed as a widower in that year. The census states his place of birth as Drumshanbo. I can't find him or Eliza in the England Census in 1881 but from the age of their children, they must have lived there then, probably in Liverpool. Early in 1900s, the family changed the spelling of their surname to Kane.
I can't find birth records for any of the children, only know the mother's name from their subsequent death records and Patrick's death record. I can't find a marriage for Patrick and ELiza and I can't find a death record for ELiza! Very frustrating. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
I have posted this in Leitrum section as well.
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from the age of their children
Which children? what dates?
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From 1891 Scotland Census the children listed are:
Henry aged 17
Joseph aged 15
Peter aged 13
Elizabeth aged 11
All say born in Liverpool
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It does make me wonder if it could be a second marriage for Eliza and perhaps the children are hers and not his.
One thing you could check is the marriages in Scotland for Patrick Cain of various spellings and an Eliza with any surname and try working things out from there.
I notice Patrick is a cooper, does he keep this occupation later? Do you have them on the 1901 census?
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When Patrick died in 1902, he was still listed as a cooper. I haven't got a note of the 1901 census for Patrick as I was looking for Joseph at that point. The marriage record of Joseph Cain (my great grandfather) says that Patrick and Eliza were his parents (actually it says Peter Cain but minor error!). Perhaps they were married in Ireland.
Think i'll need another visit to the records office to see if I can get any more clues from the children's records!
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No, I don`t think Peter is a minor error.
Peter Cain and an Eliza Cullin were married in 1863 - see www.lancashirebmd.org.uk .
I notice on the 1891 census his age was given as 52 - so born around 1839 not 1845. Ages on death certificates are not always accurate.
He is possibly Peter Caine 40 and "married" to a Louisa on the 1881 census. Occupation Cooper.
Mo
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Thanks for that. I'm well and truly confused now! Everywhere else says that the his name is Patrick and as I said, Patrick's death record says he is the widower of Eliza Cullen. This is getting complicated! Think I'd better order that certificate and see if that helps...
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Hi,
See also
http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/liverpoolrcmarriages/
Type in Eliza Cullin or Peter Cain 1863. Eliza then comes up as Elizabeth in the results. (I think she may also be Elizabeth in the 1871 census).
Mo
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Thank you - have emailed to get a copy of the details.
Now wondering if Peter perhaps died and Patrick was his brother who
Eliza(beth) married (or just coincidentally another Cain) who was subsequently widowed.
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(I think she may also be Elizabeth in the 1871 census).
Mo
I have a copy of the census record for 1891 and it is actually very difficult to make out Patrick's age thanks to the usual scoring out! Although I think ancestry lists it as 52 in its transcription, when I look at he actual record it could just as easily be 47, taking us back to that 1844/45 possible birth date. It's very hard to tell though.
Can you tell me where they were in the census of 1871 and if any children are listed? I have looked in the free ancestry site at the library but hadn't managed to find them.
I am very grateful for your help and advice so far. It never fails to amaze me how helpful and knowledgable people on this site are!
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1871 census 45 Bevington St Liverpool
Peter Cain H M 29 cooper bn Ireland
Elziabeth wife 28 bn Ireland
James son 6
William son 3
Patrick son 2
all children born Liverpool
Gibel
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1881 census as Caine 8 Court 3 House Bond St Liverpool
Peter Caine 40 cooper Leotrim (I think) Ireland
Louisa wife bn Wexford
James 15 crossing out of what could be Joseph or John), William 14, Mary 9, Henry 7, James 5, Peter 3, Louisa 0
Children all bn Liverpool
The children's names tie in young Louisa being Elizabeth by 1891 as is the wife. maybe they were Elizabeth Louisa?
Gibel
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Regarding the Louisa/Eliza on the 1881 census- I wonder if there has just been a mishearing of the names? Children's names more or less match as you say - except that James should be Joseph my Great Grandfather!
I'm looking back at all the various records I have.
So in 1891 census I have Joseph (born Liverpool) aged 15 (who I believe to be my great grandfather) living with his father Patrick, a cooper, (widower), age hard to make out but could be 47 or 52.
When Joseph marries in 1899 aged 23 his father is listed as Peter Cain - not marked as deceased - and mother Eliza Cain ms Cullen deceased.
1901 census has Joseph Cain - definitely the right one! - aged 25 born England, a boilermaker, married by this time to Isabella Duncan. Has various children including my grandmother so can say with confidence this is him!
Patrick Cain (or Kane)'s death in 1902 has him aged 57, a cooper, widower of Elizabeth Cullen.
I think I need to find Joseph's brothers and sisters records and see what I can get from them. thanks everyone for your help so far. Another trip to the records office required!
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I think some of the children's births may be registered as Caine. Some of those on www.freebmd.org.uk seem to fit the children on the census.
It might also be worth consulting St Anthony's RC church baptisms to see if the children were baptised where their parents married.
Gibel
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Once again thank you - I have learned about so many useful websites since I joined Rootschat!
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I have received a transcript of the marriage cert from St Anthony's which would appear to confirm that Peter Cain is the Patrick Cain I have on my tree - or at least his parents names match the names of Patrick! I suppose there is still the chance that they could be brothers but I think it's one of those cases of perhaps a middle name being used or just a name put down in error. I am planning another trip to the records office where I will check out exactly what is on Joseph Cain's death record and try to find his siblings' death details too then I might be able to confirm that Patrick/Peter is the same person.
Thanks again to everyone for their help!
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I found this from Ambly on another thread and it seems to clear up my Peter/Patrick mystery!
Hi there
"Patrick" often became "Peter" in Scotland , especially in the earlier records; they were quite interchangeable - though in my experience, once an individual started using "Peter", he tended to stick with it, rather than chop n' change. Have come across this quite a bit.
http://medievalscotland.org/problem/names/padraig.shtml
"In modern Scottish Gaelic, Patrick exists in several forms: Pádruig, Páruig, Para, and Pádair or Pátair. This last form led to confusion with English Peter, and the two names were often treated as equivalent in the 18th and 19th centuries "
Cheers
AMBLY
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I wonder if anyone can help me find Patrick Cain and Eliza(beth) Cullen on the census before they were married hopefully with their parents to help me out a bit with their ages and place of birth too. I have been looking but can't seem to find anything obvious!
Patrick (or maybe Peter) was born c 1845 in Drumshanbo, Ireland. His parents were Edward Cain and Mary McCrann. I know that Mary moved to Edinburgh after she was widowed as she is on the 1891 and possibly the 1881 census there. Patrick also is on the 1891 census in Edinburgh.
Eliza (or Elizabeth) Cullen was presumably born around a similar time also in Ireland and her parents from her marriage record in 1863 were James and Catherine Cullen (written Cullin on that record). I don't have a maiden surname for Catherine as I've not been able to find Eliza's death - I know she had a final child around 1880 and had died by 1891.
So I was hoping to find them on 1851 or 1861 census in Liverpool but no joy. I hope some detective can help! Thanks.
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I'm very surprised that an English marriage certificate gave their mother's names too - were these witnesses or did it actually state that they were the mothers? OK I've looked at the entry in the register online and see that it gives the parents names, what luck! how do you know Mary's name was McCrann? was that from the death certificate in Scotland which gives more information than an English one, don't pin your hopes on very much information being given on the certificate if Elizabeth died in Liverpool.
Can you give the details of the 1891 census, particularly date of birth.
Have you also thought to investigate the witnesses - Wm Keane may be a mis-spelling of Cain/Kane and do you know who Anastasia Habertin is?
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It was lucky to have the parents' names! Yes - I got the McCran surname from Mary Cain's death certificate in Scotland. I am fairly certain that McCran is the correct name as I have Mary Cain with a McCran family on the 1881 census in Leith - I think it's a brother she's with. Then in 1891 she is listed as 'mother' staying with a McGovern family in Bonnington Road, Leith where her daughter's maiden name is Cain. All it says for place of birth is Ireland on the transcript though I will check the original when I'm at the records office. She is age 83 so est birth year of 1808. However, she is listed as only 79 when she died in 1893!
I did think that Keane might be a misspelling of Cain although thought it strange that if it was a brother, for example, that the groom's name would be correct but not the witness! No idea who Anastasia could be. It's a very posh name isn't it?!
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Just as an aside, have you seen these baptisms on the IGI?
Margaret Cain, birth 25 February 1872 BALLINAMEEN, ROS, IRE
Parents Edward Cain and Mary McCrann
Edward Cain birth 10 June 1870
Parents Edward Cain and Mary Crann
Margarita Cain birth 27 February, baptism 2 March 1872 ROMAN CATHOLIC, BREEDOGUE AND BALLINAMEEN, ROSCOMMON, IRELAND
Parents Edward Cain and Maria Cran
Strange - I think these should be discounted since your Mary would be about 60 years old at the time of these births.
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I hadn't seen these before although the ages don't seem to match as you say.
I realised after I'd posted that I orginally had Mary maiden name from her son Partick death record before I found her death record.
They may not have been in UK until after 1861 of course, just with Patrick and Eliza getting married in 1863 I assumed they would be.
Been searching for Anastasiato see if any clues but can't find her either!
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Hello Portybelle, i have also been doing some research recently on the same line as you (Joseph Kane, Peter/Patrick Cain & Eliza Cain) Joseph Kane & Isabella Duncan would of been my grandfather's grandparents, his father was Patrick who would of been your grandmother's brother. I have been in Edinburgh for the past week & visited register house a couple of times. So we are related, i am from London by the way as my grandfather & a brother of his moved down when they were in their late teens (about 18 & 24). If you could assist me with any family trees you may have this would be greatly appreciated.
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Hello - more than happy to share what I have. I will send you a PM with my email address - get in touch. So I think your grandfather would have been my mum's cousin if I'm reading the info correctly - what was his name? The Patrick who was your great grandfather was my mum's Uncle Sonny. No idea why he got called that! I have a few photos I'd be happy to pass on as well. Hope to hear from you.
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Skanecfc can't pick up a private message until they have posted another couple of messages.
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Thanks but he must have been able to read it - though I know he can't reply - as we have now been in touch via email.
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Oh that's good, merry Christmas
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Still trying to track down my Patrick/Peter and Eliza prior to their marriage in 1863.
Through the Catholic baptism records I now know that all the previous census info suggested by Rootschatters were correct and have also found another three children born to this couple.
I thought I may possibly have found Patrick/Peter with his mother in 1861 and wanted folks opinions. I have a 17 year old Peter Coyne (on a very difficult to read image) with his mother Mary and two brothers but they are in Manchester St George, not Liverpool. Could Coyne be misheard for Cain in Irish accent?
Still can't see a possible Eliza pre 1863. Haven't found her death yet either. She is alive in 1881 on census but not in 1891.
Any further help appreciated. Many thanks.
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I am so excited! After over a year of looking I have found Eliza's death in the Catholic burial registers. Can someone tell me if the date on this is likely to be the date of burial or the date of death? Also if, I can match this date up with the BMD lists, would a certificate tell me anything about her parents? I already have names for them (although not her mothers maiden name) from her marriage record.
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Hi i was wondering would McCrann be Another name for McCann
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I don't know for sure but wouldn't be surprised. So many names changed either because they were misheard or the folk just couldn't read or write!
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I am so excited! After over a year of looking I have found Eliza's death in the Catholic burial registers. Can someone tell me if the date on this is likely to be the date of burial or the date of death? Also if, I can match this date up with the BMD lists, would a certificate tell me anything about her parents? I already have names for them (although not her mothers maiden name) from her marriage record.
Hi
The dates in the Liverpool RC burial records are usually dates of burial they are never dates of death. The Death Certificate would not tell you the names of the parents unless one of them was the informant of the death to the registrar.
Blue
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Thanks Blue - have ordered the cert from GRO so crossing my fingers that her husband was the informant! Then at least I'll know I have the right death although I'm 99% certain that it is.
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Pleased to say that certificate for Eliza Cain arrived this morning and I'm sure it's the right person! The address is slightly different from the 1881 census and the age is out but she was married to Peter Cain (a cooper) and that ties in perfectly with my great great grandparents. Doesn't add much to my knowledge of her but at least I now have a firm date and reason for death.
Many thanks to all who have offered help here. I've found out so much about this family that I wouldn't have found on my own. ;D
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Hi, I too have started trying to research the family tree. I joined Ancestry.co.uk yesterday and luckily enough there seems to have been enough info already on there to take me back to Edward Cain.
My grandfather was Patrick Kane (1906-1966). Skanecfc who posted on ths thread earlier is my 2nd cousin who I met for the first time last year thanks to Facebook!
Portybelle, at the risk of sounding cheeky, would it be possible for you to share what info you have with me too so I can reference it with the info I found on Ancestry? Incidentally, have you been on that site, there are photos of Joseph Cain and Isabella Duncan. I was amazed as Ive never even seen a photo of my grandad, never mind my great grandad!
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It's not cheeky at all to ask - I have found out lots from others on this and other forums. It is quite probably my tree you have seen on ancestry with the photos!
So your grandfather and my nana would were brother and sister - he was my mum's Uncle Sonny. And that makes you and I second cousins as well!
Who was your father then and whereabouts in the world are you? I'm presuming it's your father who is the link since your user name is Kano! If you can send me your email in a personal message (don't put it on the main site) I'll happily send you what I have.
Edit - you haven't made enough posts to use the PM system. Reply to this and one more post and you're there. I'll PM you my email address - I think you can read them, even if you can't send!
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Wow, that was a quick reply! Wasnt even sure you would get the message since its been a while since the last post!
Yeah that sounds right about your nana and my grandad being brother and sister. My father was Joseph Kane, he was eldest child of Patrick and Catherine. My dad moved to Dumfries when he was 22 and our branch of the family has been here ever since!
That would be amazing if you could send me more info. You must have put in alot of work and hours to get all the info you have. I couldnt believe it when i put it my grandfathers details last night then up popped his parents info and pictures!
Look forward to hearing from you again.
Many Thanks
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Happened to be working at pc hence quick reply. Would you believe I've been down your way this weekend?! We were staying up from Corsock on the A712. I have sent you my email address now so you can get it touch.
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Thanks, I have replied to your email now. Yeah Corsock isnt too far away from here. In the middle of nowhere though, eh!