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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Dean1 on Wednesday 06 April 11 11:40 BST (UK)
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I hope someone may be able to advise me here.
I want to look up a "possible birth" in Gibraltar. James Rowland b 1765 was a serving soldier all his life and his place of birth is not known - he joined the 83rd Foot himself in 1783 signing on in Newtown, Montgomeryshire. I think it is very likely that James father was also a military man and it has been suggested to me that, at that time, Gibraltar is the most likely place.
(James was only alive for one census - 1841 - which does not give his place of birth - he was living in Gt Baddow, Essex, in 1841 and for "birth" it says he was born out of county.
Don't seem to be on NA website (but am useless at navigating this) and wonder what the alternatives are for looking up military births in Gibraltar.
Grateful for any help at all.
Sue
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... he joined the 83rd Foot himself in 1783 signing on in Newtown, Montgomeryshire.
Hi Sue
Where did you get this information from? A search suggests that the 83rd Regiment of Foot were disbanded in 1783, and another 83rd did not re-form until 1793.
If you suspect you have a regimental birth you should search the records on sites such as Findmypast. These go back to 1761 - but in England & Wales only. From other places they start c1790. But they are not complete.
Ken
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Hi Ken,
An old handwritten document has just come to light giving the information on the military history of the Rowland family. It was written by his youngest son Thomas. 5 sons of James Rowland served in the military. This lists their regiments and actions they were involved in, deaths etc. The son who wrote it was a Sgt Major. I tend to believe it but he may, of course, have got his father's regiment wrong - I just hope not and would be surprised. This is where I got the information from about the 83rd Regiment. I know from this document that he served in Lord Hill's column in the Peninsular War and was wounded at Salamanca (in the hip). I have just re-looked at it and it is definitely the 83rd regiment but I have mistyped his enlistment date which should have read 1787 - I am sorry.
Like you, I find the existence of the 83rd is doubtful during the time I quoted. I believe this regiment is now the Royal Ulster Rifles or possible Royal Irish Rangers.
Findmypast does not give anyone who could be MY James I am told although it does give two. There are 4 of us trying to find James (we are all descended from him in some way) and have run out of ideas although someone has suggested that he was born in Gibraltar because his father was almost certainly military as well (we do not know who is father was for sure).
I have just acquired, this afternoon, (even if it does not relate to my James) a whole list of Gibraltar military and civil contacts (depending on religion) that people can contact. It may well be useful for others - it is quite a long list - IS IT OK TO POST IT ON HERE OR IS THERE A SPECIAL PLACE.
Sue
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Hi,
I would agree with Ken, that something doesn't add up here.
Either the enlistment date or his first regiment must be wrong. A regiment numbered the 83rd simply didn't exist between 1783-93.
It's possible of course he enlisted in some other regiment in 1787 and was in the 83rd at a later date.
You mentioned he's on the 1841 census, do you know when he died? Pre or post 1847?
I'm not sure I agree with the idea that Gibraltar is the most likely place for his birth, unless you have some info that points in that direction. Could be one of many places.
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I would agree with you that something doesn't seem right here. I have also noticed that the 83rd was not around although I believe it might have become the Perth Volunteers at one stage around James' joining up time. I suspect he joined a Militia and eventually went to the 83rd. One thing I forgot to mention is that all five of the Rowlands were Tailors - it was their trade in the Army as well as soldiers (not sure that this is particularly relevant however - unless their is some sort of Guild Tailors belong to). One other thing I know is that he did not marry overseas - for some reason he was in Stamford, Lincolnshire in 1797 because his first child was born there and he married in Bishop's Stortford in 1795 - have marriage certificate.
I don't really know what to think about moving his search further forward. A co-researcher says she thinks he was born in Gibraltar (not entirely sure why!). James' own children and grandchildren were born all over the place - Malta, Zante and more. I have a feeling this search cannot be moved forward until we know who his father was - at the moment it looks as though his mother re-married when he was 15 and he acquired a stepfather (also army).
Sue
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Something else not quite right:
... he served in Lord Hill's column in the Peninsular War and was wounded at Salamanca (in the hip).
Hill's column wasn't at Salamanca - it was guarding Badajoz at the time. Hill commanded the Right Column at Vitoria a year later. But I suppose your man could have been present attached to a different unit, or if he was a Staff officer...
Adrian
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Hi Adrian and Neil,
You asked me Neil, when James Rowland died - it was pre 1847, only just - he died 17.7.1846 in Great Baddow, Essex.
Adrian: to answer your point: I have, from his youngest son's comments that he served in Talavera, Busaco, Cuidad Rodrigo, Badagos. His rank was Sgt. Master Tailor. Probably not a Staff Sgt.
Sue
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You asked me Neil, when James Rowland died - it was pre 1847, only just - he died 17.7.1846 in Great Baddow, Essex.
OK, so there's no need for us to look for him on the MGS medal roll (in any regiment!)
Until it's independently confirmed by other records, I think to need to be a bit skeptical of this handwritten history you have. Don't accept it as face value.
James' own children and grandchildren were born all over the place - Malta, Zante and more.
To be honest, I'd be looking for his kids in the regimental births first. That would at least confirm James' regiment at given points in time.
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I have looked very carefully at what I have. In fact I was wrong - James children were not born overseas, not one of them - it was some of his grandchildren who were born overseas. Apart from his oldest son Robert b 1797 in Stamford, Lincolnshire, all the others (including those who did not join up) were born in Great Baddow, Essex. I have the military records of the 5 who joined up and have gone carefully through them and there is no clue to parentage at all.
I am pretty sure his father (James Rowland's father) was a serving soldier. I think, but am not absolutely positive, his mother, Elizabeth (no maiden name) remarried in 1777 at All Saints Church, Stamford, Lincolnshire to a James Sutton Webster. He was a soldier - it does not give his regiment but I bet it was the same Regiment as James Rowland's father served in. I think, but am again not entirely sure, that he served in the 49th Foot which I believe became the Hertford Regiment at some stage. James Rowland and his wife, Elizabeth Joceylin (variable spelling) married in Hertfordshire and Elizabeth came from Essex.
You can see why I am so muddled and am grasping at straws - just don't know where to go next. Am wondering about the American War for James Rowland.
Sue
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Hi Sue
I have found a reference to them having a 2nd Battalion, from 1804 to 1817, who were involved in most engagements from Doura (May 1809) to Toulouse (April 1814), including Salamanca in July 1812. The 1st Battalion were in the Cape and Ceylon.
As you now have a regiment you could go to Kew and look for him in the muster books. Researching a long service using musters is time-consuming, and therefore expensive if you have to pay for a researcher. However you may be able to shorten the effort by taking this period as read and checking the 83rd in (say) 1818 and beyond to get his discharge date. Then look at the 1790s to see if he was in the 83rd when they were reformed - although they appear to have been in the West Indies during the 1790s – but they would have kept a depot in the UK, and maybe they wanted his tailoring skills at headquarters. Or he could have been in a different unit and only joined the 2nd/83rd Regiment later on.
A man’s first entry in the musters of a particular regiment will say if he was a recruit, or give the name of any previous unit. Likewise his final entry will say if he was discharged (and maybe with or without pension), or was transferred to another unit. As you are looking for his parents you could just concentrate on his enlistment. The musters will not give his parents. But if you are lucky his first entry in a muster may give his parish of birth, and age on enlistment. Failing that you should see where the Sergeants were out recruiting.
If his first muster does not give you anything useful, you will have to find his last entry, as again they often give parish of birth etc.
Another option could be to look at the church records in Stamford and Great Baddow looking for other military BMDs. One may give a regiment, or with an officer’s name you can usually find the regiment from army lists and the London Gazette.
Ken
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Hi Ken,
Thank you very much for that. It gives me a way to move forward and, with a bit of luck, I may be able to get to the NA in the not too distant future.
Sue
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Can I just ask one more thing of you who have so kindly helped me ::)
I have found on a freepage genealogy site the Family History Library Film numbers for the 83rd Regiment from 1760 - 1854 - re-raised as the Royal Glasgow 83rd round about the time James joined up. I also have a list of the 82nd from 1760 - 1854 - it was suggested the written document I have may not be entirely accurate and I suspect this is so because the 82nd was raised in Stamford, Lincolnshire from Lincolnshire volunteers.
What I really wanted to ask is, on these FHL films does it list the names of ordinary soldiers or is it just officers - does anyone have any experience of these films.
Sue
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Dean1 you mentioned a list of contacts for Gibraltar and was waiting to see what the reply was on here as to where it was going.
I for one would be very interested as I have a brick wall with a guy in Gibraltar.
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Hi,
It is a very long list and no one said where to put it so I haven't. The website I got it from is:
http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.weurope.gibraltar.general/529.1.1/mb.ashx
There are one and a half pages of contact information with E-addresses and snail mail addresses. If you can't get into it let me know and I will type out on a pm.
Sue
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What I really wanted to ask is, on these FHL films does it list the names of ordinary soldiers or is it just officers - does anyone have any experience of these films.
Hi Sue
Sorry, I have not seen these films.
I am having trouble with your information. The 82nd were first raised in 1757, renamed the 72nd in 1764, and disbanded in 1768.
They were raised again in 1777 in Lanarkshire and disbanded in 1783.
They were again raised in 1793 in Stamford, but recruits came from Lancashire, Yorkshire, Staffordshire and Worcestershire as well as Lincolnshire. They fought in the Peninsular, but were not at Salamanca.
A second battalion was raised and went to Gibraltar in 1795, but they were disbanded the same year. Re-raised in 1804 and acted as a Depot to the 1st Battalion. They were in Horsham (north Sussex).
You do realise that you could spend two days at Kew, find when he first enlisted and discover it does not give his place of birth. Personally I would concentrate on the parish records for Stamford.
Ken
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Thanks Ken.
You are probably right. Fortunately for me (or not as the case may be) I live near Stamford and visited a couple of weeks ago - beautiful place! I was told, just as I was leaving and it was too late to do anything more, that the library in Stamford has copies of the Bishop's Transcripts etc - I think I may well go back. The bonus is that it is free unless you want to make copies.
The files I quoted are Mormon files and you request the reels of ?microfilm on line and they are delivered to your house (you pay the postage that is all) and then you go to your nearest Mormon centre (Kings Lynn is mine I believe) and use their viewing facilities.
I find the Foot regiments numbering quite ambiguous at times - i.e. different things said on different websites about disbandment and reformation. However, I do take your point about the 81st not being at Salamanca - I did notice but thought perhaps Lord Hills column had borrowed him!!!
Off to Stamford then. Thank you again.
Sue
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To all who helped with this problem and were rightly suspicious of James Rowland's document re his service. He was not in the 83rd as his document states! He was a Loyal Lincolnshire Volunteer and probably recruited in Newtown, Montgomeryshire (he was supposed to have been born there but haven't found evidence of that yet) but as of yesterday I know that he became part of the 81st Foot (6th btn which I can find nothing about) and there just may be some info on him on FindMyPast - he is certainly listed on there. He said he was wounded in the hip at Salamanca and that he fought in Lord Hill's Column. I think this is somewhat jumbled info from him. He was a Sgt Master Tailor and as such was battalion staff and not normally in the field. However, when on operations or at war, the Master Tailor and other btn staff may be deployed as the CO wished, presumably to help out in Lord Hill's Column - however, as someone suggested he may well have joined the 83rd later but I suspect not. He had no pension either.
A BIG THANKYOU TO ALL WHO HELPED ME.
Sue
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Hi Sue
The 81st Foot were formed in 1793 and in 1802 they absorbed the Loyal Lincolnshire Volunteers. If he was in the latter then it suggests he was born or at least was living in Lincolnshire. You should contact their Record Office to see what they have.
Lots of Volunteers were enlisted into Regular regiments so that they could be sent overseas if required. It was usually for seven limited service without a pension at the end of it. There is a muster covering 1799 - 1813 for the LLV in Kew. They will almost certainly also have the musters for the 81st Foot.
I have no idea what "6 btn" means. No regiment had six battalions until the end of the 19th Century.
Did we establish if he was alive in 1847? I think that question was asked as a veteran of the Napoleonic Wars was given a medal if they were still living in June 1847.
Ken
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Hi Ken,
Thanks for that - I had no idea the LLV would be at Kew. I viewed some records at the Lincoln Archives 2-3 years ago and I did find a William and James Rowland named but no rank or any other info about them. I will have a look at TNA website and see what I can find now you mention the LLV Muster List. I know that he was around Stamford, Lincolnshire in 1797 because his first child was born there and I found the birth at Stamford Library in their copy of the parish records. They have unfortunately got no muster lists or anything similar at the Library which is not far for me to go - about 60miles. Inconveniently James died in 1846 but even if he hadn't I doubt he could have applied for the medal, which I understand soldiers had to do, as I strongly suspect he was illiterate.
One thing |I found out today is that the 81st became a Lancs Regiment and on their Museum website under "research" they say they are unable to help with recent conflicts but an area in which they do have some documentation is the Napoleonic Wars - I think it is £20 per hour to get someone to search or, by strict appointment you can search yourself but you also pay per hour to search - can't remember how much. Sounds a bit prohibitive as if I went it would be a fair old drive and would probably have to stay somewhere the night before and the night after. Lets hope TNA comes up with the goodies! Will post result.
(I think the Lancashire Regiment was possibly quartered at Gainsborough, Lincs and Lincoln.)
Sue
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There’s an interesting article in this 1861 New Zealand newspaper about “Volunteering in the Olden Time”. http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=DSC18610430.2.35&e=-------10--1----0--
And here’s the text of a recruitment poster for the Loyal Lincolnshire Regiment of Foot, but this would be for the short-lived (1794-1796) 123rd Regiment of Foot. It’ll give you an idea of the temptations the spirited lads of Lincolnshire were subjected to.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=AS19141205.2.115.8&srpos=2&e=-------10--1----2loyal+lincolnshire--
Rex
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Hi Rex,
Sorry I didn't respond to those extremely interesting newspaper articles you posted - fascinating = especially the Lincs one! I shall pass them on also to my son who is in the Army! I don't think he was promised anything except currently, redundancy!!! My excuse is a terminally ill computer finally succumbed :'( and although back online again (new computer) am on an extremely steep learning curve - if I am honest I never did get the hang of the last one!
Thanks once again.
Sue
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I am trying to find a Birth in Gibraltar which was given on FindMyPast.
It stated ALEXANDER MCDONALD - Gibraltar_ 23rd. Vol. 1311 Page 11.
No date or Parent given.
My reason is that a Soldier called HECTOR MCDONALD/MACDONALD served as a Soldier during the period around 1808. His wife was said to be CATHERINE MORRISON, they were said to be from Isle of Skye AND their son ALEXANDER was said to have been born in BELFAST IRELAND......but no Records for either the Marriage or Birth of ALEXANDER abt. 1808 born Belfast Ireland can be found.
If I could identify the above Alexander McDonald born Gibraltar at least I could delete or otherwise.
Thank you for any advice which may be given.
Cheers,
Barnsie
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FindMyPast just give the GRO reference for overseas births.
You will have to buy the certificate for further information £9.25 from:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
Make sure you check the 'overseas event' box & give the GRO reference you have.
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Thank you Josey. Much appreciated.....
Barnsie