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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: bykerlads on Monday 04 April 11 18:24 BST (UK)
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I am fascinated by the fact that quarries founded in the mid-1830's at the top side of Hade Edge, Holmfirth should have Latin and French names: Magnum Bonum, Sans Pareil, Nec Plus Ultra ( = great good, without anything like it, none better). Can anyone suggest why?
My ancestors were the men who moved from Elland ( quarrying the Elland flags) to Hade Edge- Mitchells, Sykes, Briggs in the mid-1830's. They were largely illiterate and certainly would have had no French or Latin.
Unfortunateley, we have no indication as to who owned the quarries or the land - it would be useful to know this, maybe quarry owners from Elland?
Magnum remains as the name of the, now disappeared, hamlet which the delvers themselves must have built for their families next to the workings.
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My 3G Grandfather was John Mitchell, born ca 1799 in Rastrick. He was still in the area in 1824 when he married but was at Magnum Bonum in 1841.
At least some of the quarries were owned by a Mitchell family, no relation as far as I am aware, who then owned the quarry at the Sovereign, Shepley after the Magnum quarries closed.
I was in contact with one of the Mitchell descendants a few years ago.
I do not know why the quarries had Latin names.
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Thanks, Holmemoss- I didn't know that the quarries were owned by the Mitchells, though not your and my Mitchells.
Will keep on looking for how and why all these quarries were opened.
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I think all of these names may refer to garden plants.
It's just possible that the owner of the quarries - or a member of his family - was a keen gardener and that he named them after his favourite fruit, vegetables or flowers in the hope that the ground he was digging up would be as fruitful as his garden.
Where there's muck there's money.
Just a thought.
PatB.
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For want of anything better to do :) I have found an online Latin translator.
Bonum means 'good, better, best'
I know it was 40 years ago since I went to school but 'Sans Pareil' seems more French to me than Latin. In French it means 'Surpassing'
Nec Plus Ultra means 'And not Much Beyond'
I suppose this sums it up. 'Sans Pareil' was better than 'Bonum' and 'Nec Plus Ultra' was presumably the last quarry.
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Not so sure if the words refer to plants but they certainly translate logically as references to the quality of the products of the quarries. Both the Latin and the French phrases/mottos are not obscure or difficult and do appear in other circumstances.
Am just interested to know why "foreign" names were used and who devised them. Do we know the names of other local quarries? I don't recall seeing any others named in such a way.
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It was my mistake earlier; it was the Lindley family who owned the quarries, not Mitchell.
In 1901 it was Mitchell Lindley, hence my daft mistake.
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Based on 2 things, one and principally the date (1830s) and one name Sans Pareil, I suspect these quarries were opened to provide the stone to make up railway embankments. Sans Pareil was the name given to a locomotive around this time. If the lines were built by Stephenson he used stone from cuttings to fill hollows, but always had a need for more stone.
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I don't think that Latin and French names were so uncommon in those days. Latin was commonly taught (at least in Grammar Schools) as was French. And the upper classes who owned the mines would have had a grammar school education for the most part. And those who did not, would have aspired to such an education, and used well known, simple phrases. We still do - see below!
As Redroger noted, "Sans Pareil" was the name of a locomotive - one built by Timothy Hackworth for the famous Rainhill trials.
Foreign names have - if you'll forgive the pun - a certain cachet about them. ;)
meles
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A short google strongly suggests that parliamentary approval was given for a railway at Holmfirth in 1830, the dates certainly fit.
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Very interested to learn about the Lindley owners and also about the Sans Pareil engine- a connection ther does seem possible.
As regards using foreign names having a certain style or cachet to it, it's interesting to think that the owners had aspirations to be a bit different, to show themselves to be that bit more educated.
I just wonder how "sans pareil" would have been pronounced locally, and by my very Yorkshire forebears in particular!
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Not a native Yorkshireman though I lived there over 40 years, I think Sanparay might fit the bill. but no doubt there will be other versions.
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The's some bloody good stone here.
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As a fellow descendant of Magnum quarrymen, I think we can say that there is some of our blood in those stones.
Also, those with an interest in the Holme valley may like to know that there is a super painting, available as a print by David Quirke " View from Bare Bones Road down the Holme Valley".Bare Bones Rd. is at Magnum and the picture is a huge panorama right down the valley. You could just be sitting up there, it's so good.
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I'm attaching a map which might be of some interest. It's taken from the 1834 enclosures maps and I have overlayed the information from the relevant bits of Holme and Cartworth townships to create a composite covering the main quarry areas.
As you probably know, the township boundaries around magnum are a mess, with a bit of Holme wrapping round a bit of Wooldale and a detached bit of Cartworth. You need to see the Wooldale map too to get the full picture, but most of the areas relevant to the quarries are covered here.
You also need to look at it in conjunction with the the 1852 OS map, which I have an extract for this area, but suspect I may not be able to post it because of copyright.
The main quarries from 1852 tie up as follows:
Ellentree - parcels 110, 111, and part of 109 (H Lumb)
Ne Plus Ultra quarry (!) and Magnum Bonum - parcels 112 (J Firth), 113, 114
Round End quarry (Bare Bones) - parcel 117
Goose Hole quarry - parcels 232, 233
(One which I can't make out the name, north of Bare Bones Road) - parcel 214 (Joshua Littlewood & Benj Beeley)
Speedwell quarry and Non Pareil - part of 118 (John Harpin), 120 (W Bates) & 131 (S Morehouse)
I'm guessing that many of the quarries may have started up at around the time of the Enclosures Maps, or shortly after?
The other bit of info I have is from an account of a Home Valley Civic Society talk by Gordon Hallas (weekend Examiner 4th June 2011):
"Magnum Bonum Quarry had more than 60 people working in it in 1861, producing stone for local buildings and flagstones for railway platforms. The workers at Magnum Bonum Quarry lived in a group of cottages built for them in the hamlet of Magnum above Hade Edge."
And in relation to my 2x ggf John Turner, born 1821 in Elland:
(My own notes): Moved from Elland as a young man some time before 1840, to work at Magnum Bonum Quarries, Harden Moss, where he met and married Emma Mitchell, whose family had also moved from the Halifax/Northowram area to work at Magnum. He started out as a labourer ("stone getter" or "delver") through to 1854 (Matilda's baptism) but appears to have improved his lot as by 1861 he was described as a "stone merchant and grocer"; by 1871 he was a "quarry owner and stone merchant". At his death in 1889 he left a personal estate of £1,969.
As I live in a distant part of Lancashire, it's difficult to get access to West Yorkshire archives, so I'd be really interested if anyone can point me to any documents that might shed more light on the operation and ownershhip of the quarries.
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Thanks for adding to the Magnum information- it's very interesting - it confirms what I had deduced about the date when my ancestors moved to Magnum to work:
Crispin Sykes b. 1811 Rastrick m'd Hannah Schofield at Almondbury in Apr.1834, both were resident in Upperthong ie part of Holmfirth. He was living at New Laithe ( Underbank, Holmfirth) when his first child died in Dec. 1835.
It looks as if the workers came to Magnum but only settled there to live when they had quarried enough stone to build houses for themselves. This must have been after Nov. 1838 when Wilson Sykes was b. with the family still at New Laithe but before the 1841 census, when they were at Mountpleasant.
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Just a thought, I see that some of the land was owned by the Duke of Leeds, have you looked to see whether there is a family website/archive?
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A quick google reveals that there are lot of pubs called the Duke of Leeds!!
An interesting suggestion, though, so thanks, I'll check it out a bit more carefully.
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Generally the case, specially if the Duke, or a military commander gave money to his men on condition they founded a pub with his name.
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With ref. the owners' names on the map- do we know if these men owned other quarries elsewhere?
Also, did they live at Magnum or nearby i can't recall seeing their names on census docs. but would need to look again to be sure.
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By the look of the enclosure map, there were no dwellings nearby.
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There is a Duke of Leeds pub in New Mill which is not far from Cartworth/Hade Edge.
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My 3G Grandfather was John Mitchell, born ca 1799 in Rastrick. He was still in the area in 1824 when he married but was at Magnum Bonum in 1841.
At least some of the quarries were owned by a Mitchell family, no relation as far as I am aware, who then owned the quarry at the Sovereign, Shepley after the Magnum quarries closed.
Said John Mitchell was the g-gf of my g-gf Alexander Richardson. I have a tape recording of him, made in 1974 when he was 78, talking about his mother's family, the Stirks/Mitchells, who worked in the quarries. AR said that the family had owned quarries in Yorkshire/Co Durham, but that another branch had swindled his line out of ownership.
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My 3G Grandfather was John Mitchell, born ca 1799 in Rastrick. He was still in the area in 1824 when he married but was at Magnum Bonum in 1841.
At least some of the quarries were owned by a Mitchell family, no relation as far as I am aware, who then owned the quarry at the Sovereign, Shepley after the Magnum quarries closed.
Said John Mitchell was the g-gf of my g-gf Alexander Richardson. I have a tape recording of him, made in 1974 when he was 78, talking about his mother's family, the Stirks/Mitchells, who worked in the quarries. AR said that the family had owned quarries in Yorkshire/Co Durham, but that another branch had swindled his line out of ownership.
They were and are very good at that sort of thing.
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The Stirks and the Mitchells seem to have got together quite early on in the story of Magnum: by 1851 Joseph Stirk is living at the Terrace Hade Edge with his wife Amanda ( dghtr of George Mtichell) + baby Frederick Mitchell.
( The Terrace is where my father was born and where I lived as a small child)
My tenuous link with the Stirks is via my geat-aunt Hannah Briggs b.1901 who m'd Arnold Stirk. Both are buried at Hade Edge.
Arnold was the son of John S. b.1874, whose father was Seth b. Holmfirth.By 1861 Seth was in Wolsingham, Durham with his parents Abraham and Martha.( hope I'm accurate here, am just referrin gto sketchy notes I made a while ago)
I think there must have been "a bit of brass" ( ££) in that branch of the family because Arnold and Hannah lived in a big house at Hade Edge in the mid-20C and, I think owned the 3 houses at The Terrace.
I'd be interested to know when and why Arnold returned to Hade Edge.
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From memory, my g-gf mentioned a big fall-out over money when his Grandmother Stirk died. He didn't say how much cash/property was involved, but he did state that his mother (Edith nee Stirk) felt cheated.
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Fallings-out + ill-feeling over wills and money were a constant theme of grown-ups' conversations when I was a child, especially amongst the Hade Edge folk.
As children in the 1950's, we were of course expected to sit quietly with a book or the button box for entertainment whilst adults chatted round the tea-table. I don't think we understood much of what was said then but I remembered a lot and now it all helps to create a picture of the family's past.
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"Little boys should be seen and not heard!" Perhaps that is what started me off as rebellious from a very early age.
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We had a "J" Stirk in my year at Holmfirth High School - born 'around' 1960
Very distinctive name
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I would like to contact Holmemoss with regards to the Mitchels and the Stirks.
Abraham Stirk was father to Edwin Stork who was my grandmothers father.
My grandmother was Kate Elanour Stork before she married Donald Balfour
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Hello
Stumbled across this site by accident. Nice to find an ancestry site that is actually free of charge.
Perhaps I can help with any questions re you have re the Stirk from Holmfirth/HadeEdge as Arnold Stirk was my grandad and Hannah Briggs my grandmother !
As for wealth - sad to say this is a bit of a myth - the large house you refer to was called "Hopefield House" situated right in the middle of Hade Edge and was a shared property between my grandparents and an uncle. I can tell you various stories about the village and tale from bygone times if you want to hear the details - this involves the quarries and the steam engines and the blasting's and the roof falls and men being buried alive or blown to bits by wrong set charges. In the mid 1870's Hade Edge was a wild and pretty lawless place - three pubs no less and hundreds of irish navvies working taking stone from the quarries down to Dunford Bridge to be put on the trains for Sheffield and Manchester.....fights were common - accidents even more so. They even built a Methodist Church to try and make the locals more god fearing and less warlike !
I have managed to trace my family tree back to the "Stork" era but am lost from then backwards....
Hope you may drop me a line
Mark Stirk (grandson to Arnold + Hannah)
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So pleased you stumbled across this site!
Hannah Stirk was my greataunt, being the sister of my grandmother Florence nee Briggs.
We are therefore related.
I'd like to send you a PM-personal message but I think you need to have made a certain small number of posts to enable me to do this?
I recall being taken to see Hannah at Hopefield House as a child in the 1950's.
I've lots of info about the Briggs back to late 1700's.
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Thank You for replying - You mentioned you lived on the Terrace - I guess that was opposite the Bandroom and a little further along from the school.
Did you visit my gran at Hopefield House ? - my dad Ray Stirk and his brother Geoffrey lived there (sadly both passed away now). I spent many hours as a child playing in that area ....the exciting but dangerous quarries on the back fields.....Holmstyes Reservoir .....bilberry picking and blackberries for everyone.....the house had coal fires and I used to chop and saw wood to make kindling....I reckon I could still make a fire from scratch.....
Helms shop....Sunday School.....Bowshaw Whams fishing.....my grandad was a great friend of Jimmy the water bailiff. Hade Edge band and the little telephone kiosk at the junction of the main road (my gran used to get paid to clean that !) - going a bit further back there used to be a chip shop down Greave Road that they owned. Aunt Edit lived in the house opposite the gates to Hopefield House (with a chap called Ernest ?) and the Helms used to live a little way below on the corner house.
Lots to tell - many happy memories.....one story that Hannah always used to tell was that her brother Sykes Briggs committed suicide by weighing himself down and throwing himself into the Holmstyes Reservoir......other names that we told bad stories about were the Boswells (Ephraim and Ezekial - Holmfirths "Mitchell" Brothers of the 1940's.
Flight Hill.....my grandad was an ARP during the war and he used to cycle up there past Magnum to a little tower to watch the german bombers fly over to bombe Stocksbridge and Sheffield.....he said the whole sky lit up when they got a plastering.....and he recovered dead airmen when they flew into Holme Moss due to low flying and low cloud......and the bomb that got dropped at Stand Bank....probably aiming for either Holmstyes or Washpit Mill.....all fond memories....
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You have really set some memories going for me!
Though I only lived at the Terrace till I was 2, my grandad, Florence's husband and thus Hannah's brother in law was reservoir keeper at Harden so we spent a lot of time up there as children in the 1950's.
The Terrace is at the back of the graveyard in Hade Edge, you get to it down the lane at the side of what was Helm's shop. If I recall correctly a Stirk lived there in 1851, having married into the Mitchells, one of the original Magnum families.
Sykes Briggs died of typhus- it was his+ Hannah's father Alfred who drowned in the pond at Longley farm.
I think the chip shop was run by my dad's grandma, Hannah's mother.
There is a lot that we have in common- make a couple more posts and then I'll be able to PM you.. with mor info.
Can I ask if you have any old family photos?
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Terrier/Mark- I've sent you a PM, hope you get it- if not let me know.
Thinking about Hade Edge memories: what about skimming stones on the reservoirs?
Reminded of this just now when watching the program about the Dambusters. I'm sure my dad used to tell of seeing planes over Langsett res, during the war, practicing for the dambusting. He would have been office boy at Hepworth Iron co or at Penistone grammar school at the time, I'd guess.
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Not sure if Terrier is still looking in on Rootschat, but just to report that I went back up to Hade Edge today- the most perfect place on such a sunny day: skylark, pee-wits, harebells, gorse and a dramatic set-too over my grandad's reservoir between a buzzard and some seagulls ( get everywhere don't they?)
As usual I visited the graveyard, including Hannah and Arnold and our grtgrtgrtgrandfather Crispin Sykes, one of the original Magnum delvers.