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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Aurora on Monday 04 April 11 07:00 BST (UK)
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I am interested in a John Treanor who was born in Manchester circa 1806 (although I have found no baptism on the IGI at familysearch.org who I can identify as this John Treanor). Can anyone help me with information on this fellow? I am also very, very anxious to contact a “J.Livingston” who left a message on the “Convict Tales” section of the website of the Perth Dead Persons Society (Western Australia) – www.perthdps.com The message is:- Contact: J. Livingston - John TREANOR was 15 and from Manchester when he was sentenced to 7 years for petty theft in 1821. He was my grt. grt. grandmother's brother. He wrote home 1845 and I have his original letter. He became a free man and married. He changed his name to Jones and had at least two sons called Edward Treanor Jones and Thomas Treanor Jones. He lived in Goulburn, NSW. His letter is poignant. I am happy to send a transcript if anyone is interested. I also have a letter from his brother who was transported to Tasmania on the Prince Regent in 1818.
On the DPS site was an e-mail address for “J.Livingston” which was - (*)
I tried sending him an e-mail at this address but it bounced back as being undeliverable! So I think his entry on the DPS website must be very old. I am extremly keen to contact him, SO DOES ANYONE RESEARCHING THE TREANOR FAMILY AT MANCHESTER KNOW OF THIS “J. LIVINGSTON”?
At least I have the info about John Treanor being a convict from Manchester who arrived on the "Minerva" in 1821. But I think the key to the whole thing is getting access to the letter he sent home in 1845. I will be so thrilled if and when I finally see it! It is no use having this info if I do not have a source and cannot verify it, and I think the source would be the letter.
On the Tasmanian Archives website I found details on a Daniel Traynor who arrived in Tasmania on board the ship Prince Regent (2), so I do not know if this is the brother that “J.Livingston” is referring to.
My interest in this family is that John Treanor was my great-grandfather and the Edward Treanor Jones that J.Livingston refers to, is my grandfather. For 25 years I have had an absolute brick wall trying to find out something about my great-grandfather, who I believed was “John Treanor Jones” (variations: Trainor, Traynor etc). I guessed (but had no absolute proof) that he was another convict, John Jones from London who arrived in the colony of NSW on board the “Heroine” in 1833, and settled in Goulburn, NSW. But it seems that I was wrong about that.
I was so excited when I found this entry on the Perth DPS site. It is wonderful to finally have a breakthough with this branch of my family. But I am desperate to find J.Livingston, and to see a transcript of the letter written in 1845 – SO, HELP DESPERATLY NEEDED!!
From Aurora.
email address removed as per RootsChat Policy
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Hi Aurora
As J. Livingston used the Perth DPS to place his comments, there's a reasonable chance he lives in W.A. If you go to whitepages.com.au you will find there is only ONE J. Livingston listed in the whole of W.A. (there are 2 entries, but both for the same address in Perth). It is an uncommon name without the "e" on the end. How about phoning him or writing to ask if he is the J. Livingston who placed the Treanor information on the Perth DPS website? Good luck.
Diana
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Hi Aurora.
Would these be the Children?
V18473065 64 Born 1847 JONES THOMAS T Father JOHN Mother ROSANNA
V18441900 30A born1844 JONES EDWARD T Father JOHN Mother ROSANNA
They are the only children to this couple.
Neil
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Dear Diana and Neil
Thank you so much for your interest and for taking the time to reply to my query re "J. Livingston" and the Trainor/Traynor/Treanor family of Manchester. Diana, I did search for "J.Livingston" of Perth in the Telstra White Pages, and I think that I found the same entries that you did. I am tossing up whether to phone this number. I am a bit shy about phoning "cold", but I think I will phone some time over this weekend.
The only thing is, the e-mail address as listed on the "Convict Tales" of the PDPS website, I did a search on Google and it said that it was a UK based web based e-mail site, so I then deduced that if "J.Livingston" had a UK based e-mail address, it could mean that he lives in the UK. He also said that J.Treanor was a brother to his g.g. grandmother, who I assume was in the UK, when JT wrote his letter "home" in 1845. Of course that does not mean that "J.Livingston" or his grandparents, g. grandparents, or g.g. grandparents could have immigrated to Australia from the UK, sometime after 1845.
Neil, these early baptisms from the NSW BDM site I had found a long time ago. Edward Treanor Jones was my grandfather, he was baptised in 1844 at Goulburn, NSW, by Dean William Sowerby, a C/E baptism. His brother Thomas Trainor Jones was baptised at Burrowa, NSW, a R/C baptism. There were two other brothers, William and John, who also had "Treanor/Traynor/Trainor" as second names. JTJ and his wife Rosina Matilda Curtis also had three daughters. The Jones branch of my family has always been difficult (that is, the first generation has been difficult, I have most of the details of the seven children from 1844 to the present). I cannot find a marriage for John and Rosina (Rosina's death certificate in 1874 says that she married JTJ "in NSW" at age 17 (which would be about 1843, as she was born at Stoke Damerial, Devon in 1826. Rosina has also been reasonably straight foward to research. I have one branch of her family back to 1680 in Devonshire and Cornwell. IT IS HER ELUSIVE MYSTERIOUS HUSBAND, JOHN TREANOR OR JOHN TREANOR JONES WHO HAS BEEN THE PROBLEM. HE WAS A VERY INCONSIDERATE FELLOW, DECIDING TO TACK ON "JONES" TO HIS NAME!!
(possibly a strategy to disguise his convict origins).
Rosina arrived free in NSW on the "Lalla Rook" in 26 December, 1841. I also cannot find a death for JTJ from 1851, when his last daughter was born to 1872, when Rosina re-married. The family were in Goulburn then went to Burrowa, but most of the family ended up back in Goulburn where Rosina married for the second time (that is, if she did marry JTJ as her first marriage, it may have been a de facto relationship).
Thanks to both of you for taking the time to try and help me.
best wishes, Aurora.
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Hi
I've come across this website which mentions a William Joseph Treanor Jones marrying a Kate BYRNE in Goulburn; they had a child in 1884. The person posting on the website is also looking for information about the family.
http://www.gundaroo.info/genealogy/genealog.htm The info is about 1/3 down the page.
I'll PM you the actual contact.
There are a few discrepancies re convicts Treanor/Traynor icluding one who came on the Minerva but earlier than you have listed. The one who came earlier was apparently convicted in Carrickfergus - happy to post if you would like it.
Judith
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Thanks Judith for your interest. I have been in touch with Lee at various times over the past ten years or so, but we have not been in touch I think now for about four or five years. The last week or so I have been intending to get in touch with her again, but I first wanted to update my family history narrative with the news of our common ancestor being "John Treanor" not "John Treanor Jones" (plus sort out all my scribbled notes into a more concise form) so that I can send her an updated copy. I am sure she will be excited as I have been to discover this. I have also been delaying contacting her, as I was hoping that I would be able to contact "J. Livingston" and maybe send Lee a copy of the 1845 letter. But I think now I was too optimistic, expecting to get a copy of the letter immediately and solving the mystery of who "J.Livingston" is.
Her William Joseph Traynor Jones was a brother to my grandfather Edward Treanor Jones. Though her Bryne branch she told me at the time that she is related to Joe Bryne, one of Ned Kelly's gang (Orlando Bloom played the role of Joe in the movie when Heath Ledger was Ned). from Aurora.
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Hi Aurora,
I also have a letter from his brother who was transported to Tasmania on the Prince Regent in 1818.[/i]
He is probably talking about Thomas TRAINER who was tried at Lancaster on 27 Oct 1818 and transported to NSW on the Prince Regent 1 (1). Thomas was then transferred to the Castle Forbes and taken to Tasmania. Link to his conduct record:
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON31-1-42,190,35,L,80
He actually received his free certificate on 25 December 1825, but you will see that although he was free, his conduct record has a notation that he was fined for being drunk in 1833. Unfortunately these early convict records do not have as much detail as the later ones. His indent is not online but if you contact the Tas Archives they may be able to provide you with a copy or maybe a transcript if the original is in very poor condition. The indent often names parents and siblings.
Thomas stated that he was 27 years old and a native of County Cavan in Ireland, so if he is your John's brother you would probably need to look there for John's baptism, not England. You can order a copy of John TRAINER's (Minerva 1 (3) 1821) certificate of freedom from the NSW archives and it should state his native place. You will also get this information from his indent.
This entry appears on the NSW index to the Colonial Secretary's papers:
TRAINER, Thomas. Per "Prince Regent", 1820
1821 Jan 20
Prisoner at Newcastle. Drowned when boat upset on 17 Jan 1821 (Reel 6067; 4/1807 pp.167-8)
Clearly this was not the Thomas who was taken to Tasmania - I think it is either the wrong name or the wrong ship.
As Judith said, there was also a John TRAINOR who was transported on the first journey of the Minerva 1 arriving from Ireland in 1818 so you would have to be careful not to mix them up.
http://members.pcug.org.au/~ppmay/cgi-bin/irish/irish.cgi?requestType=Search2&id=28790
Debra :)
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These are the possibles I can see from various convict records, for the chap convicted in Lancashire.:
From: Australian Convict Transportation Registers 1821-1822
John TRAINER,
convicted Lancashire Quarter Sessions, 25 October 1819
transportation 7 years.
Minerva - voyage date 26 July 1821
General Muster NSW, 1822
John TRAINER, convict
Minerva,
Employed by G S S Baker, Parra (presumably Parramatta)
Judith
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Thank you, Judith and Debra, for your input. I will certainly investigate this Thomas Trainor who was transported to Tasmania. I previously did a search for convicts named Trainor to Tasmania, and did not find him. Aurora.
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Hi
I've come across this website which mentions a William Joseph Treanor Jones marrying a Kate BYRNE in Goulburn; they had a child in 1884. The person posting on the website is also looking for information about the family.
http://www.gundaroo.info/genealogy/genealog.htm The info is about 1/3 down the page.
I'll PM you the actual contact.
There are a few discrepancies re convicts Treanor/Traynor icluding one who came on the Minerva but earlier than you have listed. The one who came earlier was apparently convicted in Carrickfergus - happy to post if you would like it.
Judith
I've found a William JONES on the NSW Electoral Roll for Goulburn in 1878 ... He was a householder in Sloane St Goulburn,; There are several with the surname BYRNE .... as under :
John, freeholder in Auburn St; John, householder in Cowper St; James, residence in Cowper St; John a freeholder in Addison St; John a householder in Montegue St; Thos H, a householder at Gundary; and James a householder at Auburn St
Hope this helps with Kate BYRNE
Cheers, JM
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I have a copy of the letter you are looking for. Its not poignant at all. Its very funny I reckon. He got told his brother was a chief constable. He wasn't. He was the opposite. I also have my family in the UK and Ireland but found them seperate to the letter from some of the myriad of stuff my dad told me when he could do it without my mum hearing. There is also other content online. There is also a good amount of local content. Remember when you had the penfriend in Africa. I also had a penfriend at the same time that I selected out of the Sunday papers because of where they lived which is where my great gran also lived and that I chose that penfriend was at my Dad's suggestion. Its an amazing world.
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I have to say too that the genetics have come through via anyone with snow white hair but not the drukenness of his aunt that John Treanor Jones wasn't impressed by in the least. In Irish mythology the stories are only handed down to the one who is unmistakedly of that ancient fenian line that my dad's family came from hence the >>>>>>>> Johneen Jones (his namesake)
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It took me a while to find it. Its written as my copy is written.
"Dear Brother,
I once more lift my peninhopes of hearing from my parents. Ihave wrote several letters home but never had the satisfaction of receiving one from home. I wrote to my father's place. ... I never could recieve the slitest account that they have moved. I am informed lately where ------- ------ is living and that he had been home to England. ..."
I put fenian family above. I meant ancient fianna family. That fawn I had that my dad got Aunty Edie to track down for me is part of that legendery irish white hair stuff which is why I had that when tiny. Dad said when that mysteriously disappeared "Oh well, she will never forget she had it". The weird thing is Alice's ancestry was the clan that joined in with my Dad's re mtDNA 1700 years ago.
Slan
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There is on this page under the 'majm' rootschat log on name, an avatar showing the 1806 Bowman Flag of NSW.
That is a coincidence as that same Mr Bowman was once the Master of John Treanor Jones (i.e. JTJ was his slave), and it must have all become too much as JTJ fled from Mr Bowman's clearing party. Given what those clearing parties did its little wonder JTJ did flee but its was aslo opportune given the Bowman history. :o
Why anyone would think any fenian should have a "Master' is beyond me but that was part of the lunacy surrounding the invasion of Australia by the UK whereas these days the convicts are given more respect via the Memory of the World project.
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There is on this page under the 'majm' rootschat log on name, an avatar showing the 1806 Bowman Flag of NSW.
That is a coincidence as that same Mr Bowman was once the Master of John Treanor Jones (i.e. JTJ was his slave), and it must have all become too much as JTJ fled from Mr Bowman's clearing party. Given what those clearing parties did its little wonder JTJ did flee but its was aslo opportune given the Bowman history. :o
Why anyone would think any fenian should have a "Master' is beyond me but that was part of the lunacy surrounding the invasion of Australia by the UK whereas these days the convicts are given more respect via the Memory of the World project.
Are you anticipating an explanation from me as to why I use that Avatar ....
You will notice that the Emu and the Kangaroo are represented there. You will notice that the Coat of Arms for the Commonwealth of Australia also has representations of the Emu and the Kangaroo. Of course you will appreciate that the Australia Act of 1986 addressed the final separation of power from Britain and thus that Australia finally became a Nation at that time.
It is not my intention to inflame or incite any comments as to the flag, if you find it offensive, please feel free to report this post to the Moderator, and allow RChat to determine any action.
Cheers, JM
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JM, how would the Bowman Flag (avatar) be offensive? I was commenting on the coincidence that the Bowman flag avatar was about the same Bowman's that John Treanor Jones was assigned to. I was interested enough in your avatar to google the Bowman Flag and it was then I realised that the Bowman connected to that flag was the same Bowman that JTJ cleared out from. My post was about that coincidence and the fact that JTJ did abscond. Interestingly the letter written by JTJ that this forum is about notes within it that JTJ had done nothing wrong since arriving in the colony so right and wrong are very relative. JTJ obviously considered his clearing out from his 'Master' was right. The Emu and Kangaroo used in Australian flags are Australian Aboriginal cultural icons and have tangible representations at particular highly significant Australian heritage places, so that those Ancestors then became symbolism preserved on flags while the locations of their terrestrial location was obscured tells another story.
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Hi all,
I have read this with interest...
I have a Thomas JONES and a Rosina CURTIS in my family. Their daughter Rosina JONES born Burrowa NSW married William TOPHAM Goulburn NSW. According to her death transcript her father Thomas was a farmer. Is this the same Thomas JONES and Rosina CURTIS? as I noticed that Aurora had Rosina CURTIS marrying a John T JONES.
At this stage I have no death for Rosina CURTIS nor a first or 2nd marriage and certainly no other children to the couple yet. I have only just started on this line of family.
cheers
Lea
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In 1962, my 76 year old dad, John Thomas Jones, the very kind and gentle and very well regarded in the Gundagai community, grandson of John Treanor, was attacked for no valid reason by 42 year old Jack Goodsall and Goodsall's 15 year old son. Goodsall was a drunken gambler. My dad was punched and kicked and severely injured hitting the right side of his head on our hardwood, wooden door step. My dad refused medical help as he had a business and a 10 year old and 13 year old children. My dad had a seizure in front of me at 6.30am on 27 June 1962, was taken to hospital and died early on 28th June 1962. I'd been getting up when my dad did, knowing he was not well, and I used to light the open fire in the kitchen and make him tea and toast to have after he returned from lighting our cordial factory boiler. I was my dad's "cobber' as he called me and I very, very close to him from birth. H etook me to work with him daily till I started school and he had trained me up to make the drinks at his cordial factory after Peter Y embezzled the factory of a very large amount of money in 1960 and was sacked, and had given me the recipes. When my dad went to hospital my mum was told by the local GP, Gerry Dalton, that my dad may have had a coronary occlusion. The local paper that day said though he had had a stroke that my mum disputed to me when I bought the paper home. The undertaker was not going to bury my dad as the GP refused to sign a death certificate. Then the undertaker decided he would bury my dad after the local accountant, Cliff Butcher, rang him. My dad was duely buried. Jack Goodsall and his family were never held to account for the murder of my dad. The 6 Goodsalls who lived next door to us were all involved in that murder. The very jealous about everything my family did such as going to Sydney to see our aunts once a year, three girls came to the fence slinging off that my dad was 20 years older than my mum and that we were "filthy" because of that after they had been visited by a Smith relative. My dad was actually 22 years older than my mum, not 20 years. My sister and her best frioend, Sue B, and myself were outside eating slices of jelly and cream, sponge cake my mum had just cooked. The friend of my sister said after the sling off about my parents "Never mind Marcia at least your mum didn't go having babies before she was married". My sister said to her friend, "Lets go down to your place for a while", so off they went. The mother of that disgusting violent Goodsall family came to the fence after the three jealous girls ran in to tell her what my older sister's friend had said, wanting to know of me what was said - then her drunken gambling slob of a husband came to our front door with his son a couple of hours later, and attacked my dad. The information about Rita Smith/Goodsall having had a child to someone before she was married, did not come from my home as my parents were not gossips. I didn't know about it. My sisters best friend was the daughter of one of Jack Goodsalls best friends, Bob B. Bob B and Goodsall were Gundagai Shire Council employees. So, my dad was buried. Probate of his will had not been granted several months later so I sent my mum to the solicitors to demand that probate be granted. My Mum came back with a copy of my dad's will. Probate was granted after the accountant Cliff Butcher, signed the death certificate. In 2010 I realised that the full probate papers were available and sent for a copy of them from NSW Records. In those probate papers was the truth of my dad's murder and that he had died of a cerebral haemorrhage which fits exactly with the left hand side of his face having dropped as he sat in a chair before the ambulance arrived at my home. This fits with the terrible injury to the RHS of my dad's temple suffered after 42 year old Jack Goodsall gave my 76 year old dad one last almighty punch that sent my dad into our front door step. Jack Goodsall is now dead. I inherited my childhood home so still live here. It is where my dad wasd attacked and where I last saw him after he collapsed in front of me that morning. The house is better than it used to be as I am always slowly renovating. My family may have had a cordial factory but they were not 'rich' at all so our house was very basic and in need of a lot of work. Its looking really good now inside but still more to do. Johneen Treanor Jones (McCabe) - Gundagai
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May I please duplicate some information posted earlier, and add to that information.
John TRAINER aged 15 years, born Manchester, Shoemaker, 4 ft 8 ¾ inches tall, ruddy complexion, brown hair, hazel grey eyes, tried Quarter Sessions 25 October 1819, Lancaster. Sentenced 7 years, arrived Sydney per Minerva (4), 16 December 1821.
December 1821 to Emu Plains for Assignment/Distribution
Sept 1822 Assigned to S BAKER at Parramatta
August 1825 at Airds, for Assignment/Distribution
Sept 1825 Assigned to a Bringelly Clearing Party under Mr HOOK
Oct 1825 at the Carters Barracks, Sydney Town, for Slops
Nov 1828 Residing Baulkham Hills, Freed by Servitude
2 Nov 1826 Certificate of Freedom #5799
Please do NOT confuse the above chap who was transported on the 4th voyage of the Minerva, arriving December 1821 with a John TRAINER who was also transported on the Minerva, arriving 30 April 1818, at age 22, so arriving on an earlier voyage.
Please do NOT confuse either of those two chaps with the John TRAINER who was born in NSW in March 1801 and baptised at St John's Parramatta 24 May 1801.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/
JM
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Hello McCabe,
I have just sent you a PM regarding your posting.
Regards
Sarah
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Hi. Can you take out the name "S B"from the above post. I have recently discussed this matter with that person and we both agreed that anything she said did not warrant my dad being bashed by the Goodsalls as it was nil to do with my dad. The matter was not reported to the police in 1962 as the local GP did not say my dad died of the bashing injury, putting his death down to a HA and telling my mum that. I got the probate papers in 2010 and it is very obvious my dad did die from the bashing as in the probate papers it said he died from a cerebral haemorrhage. I reported this to the police in 2011 and to the NSW Coroner in 2014.
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Hi there,
...... The matter was not reported to the police in 1962 as the local GP did not say my dad died of the bashing injury, putting his death down to a HA and telling my mum that. I got the probate papers in 2010 and it is very obvious my dad did die from the bashing as in the probate papers it said he died from a cerebral haemorrhage. I reported this to the police in 2011 and to the NSW Coroner in 2014.
So McCabe, are you saying that these are matters that NSW Police and/or the NSW Coroner have as current matters?
May I please express concern for discussing current NSW Police or NSW Coroner matters in public forums such as RChat.
May I mention that Probate Packets that have been transferred from the NSW Supreme Court to the NSW Archives (State Records NSW) are public records. These means that any member of the general public can access the entire Probate file for McCabe's late father. A NSW Probate Packet often contains a NSW death certificate. A NSW death certificate includes details of the cause of death, as certified by a medico, and the registration is usually prepared and lodged by the funeral director. There is provision on a NSW BDM death certificate for family history details which are supplied by an informant who does not need to be a family member.
May I further mention that the 1962 Probate process for the Grant for McCabe's late father was not unduly delayed. From the online index, during 1962 some Probates took much longer, and several took about the same amount of time to be proven. A quick check at NSW State Records online index brings up the following for Grants for using the keywords John Jones Death 1962.
DD 13 Nov 1961 - Grant 9 May 1962
DD 18 Oct 1961 – Grant 30 March 1962
DD 15 Aug 1961 – Grant 6 December 1962
DD 26 July 1961 – Grant 10 August 1962
DD 3 Oct 1962 – Grant 22 Feb 1963
DD 4 May 1962 – Grant 26 July 1962
DD 16 May 1962 – Grant 24 Aug 1962
DD 27 June 1962 – Grant 9 Oct 1963
DD 27 Jan 1962 – Grant 25 April 1963
DD 8 June 1962 – Grant 7 Oct 1965
John Thomas JONES (McCabe's late father) DD 28 June 1962, Probate Granted 14 November 1962
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/
ADD
May I add that NSW State Records has indexed a Probate Packet that was granted 16 March 1970 for a Jack GOODSALL, DD 18 May 1968.
NSW BDM has a death registration for a John GOODSALL registered Gundagai district, DD as 18 May 1968. #18174
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx
That death occurred more than 30 years ago (nearly 50 years ago).
There is a War Services file at the National Archives (of Australia) that has Jack's DD as 17 May 1968, and his DoB as 3 December 1919 at Gundagai. NX101819 .
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx
LATER ADD
From the 1913 NSW Electoral Roll for COOTAMUNDRA, with polling at Gundagai, at least three cordial makers in Gundagai:
Charles McCABE, of Gundagai, cordial maker
Charles GOODSALL, of Gundagai, cordial maker
John Thomas JONES, of Gundagai, cordial maker
From the 1902/3 NSW Electoral Roll for HUME, with polling at Gundagai:
Charles McCABE, Sheridan Street, cordial maker
JM
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This post has caused outrage in the town of Gundagai. This "McCabe" person needs to be restrained. She is telling lies. There was no murder! There was no embezzlement! This post has caused a great deal of distress to the families named in the post. Why should they have to read such lies about their family members? These families are well-respected decent people and do not deserve to read such rubbish. Rootschat is a genealogy forum and this horrible post is nothing to do with genealogy. Another gentleman's name has also been mentioned, and whilst not defamatory, is irrelevant to any genealogy. The gentleman's daughter would like his name deleted.
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Hi there,
I will again report it all to a volunteer moderator.
JM
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Sorry, I meant the long rambling post dated 4 August, 2016 by "McCabe", where she is alleging her father was murdered (a complete fantasy. Her father died of natural causes) and another fantasy about a person commiting an embezzlement (another fantasy). Sorry, I did not realise that "McCabe's" post was not the post directly before my post. Anyway it would be easy to work out what post needs to be deleted
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Yes, I understand that you are not asking for the post I made to be deleted. I will use the report to moderator button.
JM