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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: Holmemoss on Sunday 03 April 11 18:06 BST (UK)
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Four puzzles in one! I have the following Heward people in Holme, near Holmfirth
1. Jonathan Heward and Sarah (Sally) had a son James Heward baptised at a non-conformist chapel in Holmfirth (Wesleyan?) - RG4-8 - on 25 Jul 1811. I do not know if they had any other children.
Jonathan Heward died and Sarah then married Joseph Greaves at Kirkburton on 22 Jun 1823.
2. John Heward (b 1786/7 at Holme) married Esther Taylor (b 1791/2 at Netherthong) at Almondbury on 11 Apr 1814. Is James the brother of Jonathan?
John and Esther are living at Holme Banks, Holme in 1851; their children being Hannah (1815/6), Nancy (1822/3), Diana (1827/8), John (1829/30) and Ruth (1831/2). All born at Holme.
However, the following Heward children are also in the household in 1851; Taylor (aged 10, son), Jane (aged 7, dau), Mary Ann (aged 6, dau) and Henry (aged 3, son). All born at Holme or Cartworth.
With the possible exception of Taylor, these children are too young for Esther to be their mother.
3. Lydia Heward married Nathan Littlewood at Kirkburton on 26 Feb 1843. She died in 1848 so I couldn't check the 1851 census and I couldn't find her in 1841 even after guessing her age.
4. Joseph Dearnley married Mary Heward (b 1817/8 at Holme) at Almondbury on 24 May 1835. Is Mary related to James, baptised in 1811?
Any ideas and suggestions most welcome.
Thank you.
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Just a brief contribution, not really much use to answer your puzzles but:
-Heward doesn't seem to be a common Holme/Cartworth/Holmfirth name- wouldn't be surprised if all Hewards were related back then.Are there any locally now?
- nice to see an example of mother's surname used as first name for a son, Taylor- very Holme Valley!
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I think they must all be related somehow but I am struggling to find out how; hence the post in the hope someone could help if they have booklets or information I don't have.
I am not sure but I think Heward may have become Howard with the passage of time.
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Hi
I looked at the marriage of James HEWARD and Esther TAYLOR to see if there were any clues in the witnesses but, in common with most of the other eight marriages that took place at Almondbury Parish Church that day (a regular production line!), it was witnessed by two churchwardens. James would have been unable to offer any guidance about spelling his name as he was unable to sign the register (as was Esther).
Glancing through Almondbury baptisms indexes, in addition to HEWARD, various people with abodes in Holme or Holme Woods appear as HEWOOD, HEWWOOD, HEYWOOD, HAYWARD and HOWARD.
Regards,
Lesley
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Hi again
With regard to the Joseph DEARNLEY/ Mary HEWARD marriage (on 24th August, not May), George HEWARD of Holme was married on the same day. Mary's marriage was witnessed by two church wardens, George's by Joseph MARSDEN and John BEARDSELL. george was able to sign the register, and spelled his name HEWARD.
regards,
Lesley
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Thank you, Lesley.
Before I say anything, I may have mixed up two pieces of paper. Was it James Heward or John Heward who married Esther Taylor on 11 Apr 1814?
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Hi
I was so busy looking at witnesses I didn't notice it was John, not James who married Esther Taylor- and Esther did sign the register.
Regards,
Lesley
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It was my initial mistake, Lesley. I put James Heward, not John, in my original post.
It should, of course, be John and I have just modified it in case anyone reads it later.
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I don't normally jump the gun by looking at a century earlier but there are baptisms for
Johes(john) Heward baptised 8th Feb 1718 son of Jacobi (James) of Holmewood
Then a Martha Heyward baptised 14 May 1709 dau of Jacobi (James) of Holnewood
Sara baptised 27thSep 1712 dau of Johnis (John) of Holne
The surname variations are shown together with the sometimes used 'Holne' which I believe was the actual name/spelling of Holme- don't know whether this helps or not.
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Thank you, Wyjan, and I apologise for the delay in response but I have been away.
I am trying to find a connection between the various Heward families; I think they all must be related somehow but cannot find the connection.
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Hi Holmemoss
I know where you are coming from and I am trying to do the same with my Holmfirth area names of Haigh and Mellor. In sheer desperation I have collected every surname from both the Kirkburton and Almondbury transcriptions, non conformist transcription of the area, the Hearth Tax, anything I can lay my hands on. Your surname of Heward I would think might be a bit easier to sort out. I wouldn't normally advocate starting at the earliest and moving forward but it might be one way of trying to connect your family.
Looking at the Hearth Tax of 1672 there is a James 'Howard' in the Holmfirth area which could be a variation on the name. Good luck with your search. -j
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Hi Holmemoss.
Vry much agree Heward and Howard were interchangeable back then. Your John seems to be at Holmewoods in 1941 where families I consider all to be related are enumerated as Howard and Heward. I thing the local dialect would have had the pronunciation 'heward' so the enumerators would have gone with that, for whatever reason. I also think Haywood Hayward and hawood Haward could link in.
Not sure if it will help but I have your John heward here
http://www.werelate.org/wiki/Person:John_Howard_%28155%29
In a site where I have tried to link in all inhabitants of holme in the census
http://www.werelate.org/wiki/HolmeVillageHome
I note also that John James and mary howard very common so its hard to seperate them in the PRs
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Thank you for the comments and, once again, my apologies for the delay in response. I have not been at home; alas not a holiday.
Even in my father's childhood in the 1930s, people in Holmfirth called the people in Hade Edge 'lumpers' partly because of the broad accent so unravelling Heward and Howard is not going to be easy.
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My grandma said 'own' not Holme and apparently 'Holne' was the ancient pronunciation.
Plenty of historical clues in those broad accents
Any more of those "Lumpers" type stuff, Holmemoss ? My grandmea had a verse which said "Holne Pienets. marsden XXX and XXX behind-wallers. I think pienets is a name for small game birds
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I shall ask my father the next time I go to see him. I can't ring him as he is now almost totally deaf.
However 'pienet' is a magpie.
Does XXX mean she was cursing or just that you can't remember what she said?
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Just coming back on-line after being away.
What is all this about my Hade Edge people being called "lumpers"? I've never heard this before. Though I have to admit that I've been told that, as a child who spent the first 3 years of its life at H.Edge, my broad Yorkshire speech was difficult to understand for people in Holmfirth when we moved down there!! ( I soon learned the value of refining my pronounciation at primary school, grammar school and then university, though)
As regards Holme, it was always pronounced "Own" in our family in Holmfirth- no doubt to distinguish it from the word "home".
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According to my Dad and he is talking about the 1930s, people living in Holmfirth viewed those in Cartworth, Hade Edge, etc., as - how shall I put in politely - unsophisticated.
As they lived in the lumps (hills to the uninitiated) above Holmfirth they were referred to derogatorily as lumpers.
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I do recall my mother (Holmfirther) saying that before she married my father (Hade Edger), some of the local old women told her not to because he'd never have any money as his family had "some gypsy in it". She was very blond + pretty, he very dark and handsome in a Heathcliffe sort of way.
His colouring in fact came from his father (Underbanker).
The old crones proved to have been wrong: mum and dad did very well for themselves, having started married life " with not a spare halfpenny to scratch their backsides with".
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My grandma said 'own' not Holme and apparently 'Holne' was the ancient pronunciation.
Plenty of historical clues in those broad accents
Any more of those "Lumpers" type stuff, Holmemoss ? My grandmea had a verse which said "Holne Pienets. marsden XXX and XXX behind-wallers. I think pienets is a name for small game birds
Did a little research on Marsden and the name was Marsden Cuckoos - theres a reference in wikipedia
The other place I dont remember but the nick-name "behind't'wallers" sticks in my memory - I wonder if the nickname had any sinister conaugtations ?
(edit)Was thinking some more, then slaithwaite came to mind.
But from Wikipedia they reckon its Slaithwaite Moonrakers, Golcar Lillies ,Linthwaite sows "sairs" (probably where the sair inn name comes from)
Stll cant 'own' where the behind't'wallers are from ?
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I have now seen my father, who at the age of 90 said, I am a Yorkshireman not a bloody poet.
I took it that he doesn't know!
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Have never heard of "behind't'wallers"- it has a hint of " the back of beyond" or, more sinisterly, "beyond the pale".
Just remembering bits of dialect from childhood in Holmfirth, does anyone recall a character called" Rye Shink"?( no idea how it's spelled, only heard it spoken). He was a shambolic character who had, I think, a woodyard.
His wife had a large brood of children of uncertain paternity- when they were too noisy, the tale went that he would threaten to send them back to their fathers if they didn't shut up!
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Isn't it lovely to have memories like this,I've just loved reading the last few comments.
Carolanne
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Very Royston Vasey - I enjoyed that show before it got increasingly stupid in later series - filmed in hadfield - I have ancestors from there too.
Back on the Hewards/Howards. The name was concentrated in Holme and surrounds. They seemed to be prolific breeders and from the census and PRs came form Holmwoods area.
The names not too common in huddersfield - but doesnt appear much in hearth tax or earliers stuff - not as common as earnshaws and hinchliffes for example.
My theory is the first howards would have come from the glossop area - very common there and there were aincient trade routes over' tops
I think farmers in holmfirth even recently would have been just as likely to attend agricultural shows etc over'tops as on the huddersfield side of the pennines
Haven't been able to find any hard evidence though
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Interesting comment about links with Holmfirth area and over'top into Lancs- we've probably got too much of a tendency to think in today's geographical/travel terms.
Agricultural shows etc. would of course been an ideal opportunity for young people to meet future spouses, thus bringing new blood into the area. ( though I do suspect that one of my Burnlee Wimpennys who wed a Dewsbury lass in the early 1800's would have had his match to some extent arranged by his clothier father whilst doing business at the Cloth Hall in Hudds.)
Also,for a working man in search of work to go on foot or by cart from Glossop or Hadfield to Holmfirth/Holme/Hade Edge would have been just as likely as coming from Hudds.
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My father was a little preoccupied the last time I saw him as the water (watter) tank was leaking in the loft. I have got more sense out of him this time.
Holme pienets
Marsden cuckoos
And Hade Edge back o' wallers
In explanation:
Holme band's uniform was black and white; hence pienets (magpies). Brass band, of course.
In and around Holmfirth (and probably other places) you were 'cuckoo' if you were a bit daft. The story goes that some contraband was put in the cut (canal) in Marsden. The Police saw them when they were trying to retrieve it with a net so they said they were trying to catch the moon's reflection.
My father says it was back o' wallers not behind wallers. Hade Edge was quite remote and courting couples used to go there to be alone. People use to hide behind the walls to see what they were up to.
My Dad is 90 so if there is owt else then ask now!
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Thanks Holmemoss. Your dads memory sounds better than mine !!
My Gran would be 106 if alive today - she used to mind me a fair bit as a young'un so passed on her bits of wisdom
"Down the drain or up in smoke" was where all my grandads money went
http://www.werelate.org/wiki/Person:Alice_Howard_%285%29
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P*ssed it up against a wall in local parlance!
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Hi Holmemoss
Sorry to join this discussion so late, but I've only just joined this forum today.
I did some work on the Howards/Hewards of Holme a few months ago, listing all the baptisms from the Almondbury (and Kirkburton) parish records and grouping them together into probable family groups. Amongst other things, it showed a clear group of families descended from John Howard and Sarah Bennet of Holmewoods, and also how the names Howard, Heywood, and Heward seem to have been interchangeable, as noted by others earlier in this discussion.
The data is on an excel spreadsheet and I'd be happy to share it with you, although I'm not sure how to exchange files via messaging forums and don't want to publish it openly. Perhaps you could advise, if you're interested?
Incidentally, and off topic, I'm also interested in John Mitchell and Ann Flather (they are direct ancestors of mine and I found this forum by a link to your discussion about John Mitchell's missing baptism record in Rastrick) and would be interested in sharing information about them. Nothing I can add about John Mitchell, but I've done a similar analysis for baptisms and marriages of the Flathers in Halifax/Northowram which you might find of interest.
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Are you linked via John Mitchell to the delvers /quarrymen of Hade Edge? I think you probably will be- which of the original Hade Edge/Magnum families do you have in your tree?
We have Briggs + Sykes ( directly from Elland) then the Schofields, Mitchells, Stirks et al.
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Hi
I have John Mitchell b.1799 in Rastrick as a 3x ggf; his spouse Ann Flather b.1798 in Northowram (and their offspring); plus John Turner b. 1822 in Elland (my 2x ggf) who married the Mitchells' daughter Emma.
Most of my tree has been published as a public member tree on ancestry.co.uk ("sandford_lawton_bamforth") - see http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/15232177/person/233182822?ftm=1 for John Turner
But that version is now a little out of date as I've started looking at it again recently with the benefit of the new online parish records from West Yorkshire archives.
John Turner is particularly interesting as he seems to have started out as a quarry labourer but build up to become a stone merchant and "quarry owner" at Magnum by the 1871 census.
The history and families of Magnum seems a pretty interesting topic in its own right - has there been a separate thread on it here at any time? If not, I'd be happy to start one.
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Peasants and Clothiers by Holmirth High School has a section on Magnum
Funny story but when I first started cataloguing the Holme Parish census It took me ages to find Mount Pleasant and Magnum Bonum
Another area of interest was the building of the yateholme valley reservoirs. Ramsden, which was almost deserted up till 1880, becomes a large settlement of Navvies in 1881 and 1891, then deserted again in 1901 - along with all the other settlements in that area
Several large families (mostly Howards) would have mde it a very busy place to be !
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Digley, I think |I might have posted about Magnum in the past but can't recall the details.
"Holmemoss" and myself seem to be the main rootschatters with a connection there.
In 1861 my ancestor Jonathan Briggs 25 unm. b. Elland, quarryman was a Lodger with the widowed Ann Mitchell b. Northowram , along with fellow lodger Soloman Greaves. Ann would be, I guess, your Ann nee Flather widow of John Mitchell.
My Jonathan must have followed his delver brother Joseph from the Elland flags to Magnum to find work. He is my gggrandfather.
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I did find the earlier post about magnum last night by searching the forum. It had a discussion about the origin of the french names for the quarries.
I have a bit of info which may or may not be new to you, and will add it to that earlier post
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Thanks, Digley- I've added to the magnum thread.
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Welcome to Rootschat, DigleyMill
John Mitchell and Ann Flather are also my 3G Grandparents and I have a lot of information on their descendants.
John Mitchell remains an enigma as I have not found a baptism; this thread probably explains why :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,488721.0.html
I shall send you a PM with my email address.
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I've just joined the forum. It's great to see reference to Joseph Flather, John Mitchell and the Stirks (Martha Grace Mitchell = Abraham Stirk). I'm also a descendant of this line, albeit long settled in Newcastle. I'll need to dig out my files to see exactly how I fit in, but from memory Joseph Flather is my Gx5 grandfather. I've got some bits and pieces about John Mitchell, including a copy of his marriage certificate. Interestingly, his name was passed down to my paternal grandfather, John Mitchell Richardson (d. 1996). An uncle of his also shared the same name.
The Flathers of Northowram look to be a very interesting and fruitful line to follow. Has anyone consulted 'Yorkshire Pedigrees' (The Harleian Society, 1942)? I understand that the family is included in one of the volumes. Also, at the West Yorkshire Archives, there look to be a lot of original papers from the 17th/18th Centuries relating to the family.
Paul
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Hi
I too have recently joined the forum.
My interests are in John and Ann Mitchell.
Their daughter Martha Grace married my gggrandfather Abraham Stirk.
My grandmother Kate Elanor Balfour (nee Stork) was daughter of Abrahams son Edwin Mitchell Stork (Stirk)
I would love to hear more of the families.