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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: apanderson on Sunday 03 April 11 15:33 BST (UK)
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Despite using every spelling variant I can think of, I can't find the Chissel Family in Leith (or anywhere else in the whole of the UK) on the 1861 Census.
The known details are:
George Penny Chissel, age 28/29, Gunner or Bombardier Royal Artillery, born c1832, East Allington, Kingsbridge, Devon
Ann Chissel (nee Dunn/Don) wife, age 27/28, born c1833, Stirling
George Penny Chissel, age 2, born 19th March 1859, Leith, Midlothian
Helen Chissel, age 3 months, born 13th January 1861, Hillhousefield, Leith, Midlothian
They had another son, John Chissel, also born at Hillhousefield, Leith on 2nd December 1862, so presumably they didn't hop off to somewhere else between the births of Helen in 1861 and John in 1862 ....... or did they?
I have a record of all their children's baptisms which were included in George's Discharge Papers of 1873. This shows that both Helen and John were baptised at North Leith a few weeks after their births and also their first (surviving) child George in 1859.
George and Ann were married at Stirling 2nd March 1857.
Anne
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Hi Anne
Try searching under Chisell. There is another child, Jane, born 1858.
Hibee
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Hi Hibee,
Thanks for that, but I must be doing something wrong somewhere as I STILL can't find them!
Can you tell me the exact search criteria you used please and I'll have another go?
Anne
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I looked at Births, 1858-62 on ScotlandsPeople, for surname Chisell, Leith, Midlothian.
But I agree that the 1861 census does not show this.
Hibee
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George & Ann had 10 children in total born between Monifeith, Leith and finally Glasgow.
All the Chissel Births, Marriages & Deaths on SP are the same family, so it's been relatively easy (but expensive) to get all the certs and keep track of them.
This is the only Census I can't find them on and it's driving me bonkers!
Thanks for having a look for me anyway!
Anne :)
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I've also got a thread running on the Devon Board, but I'm not going to cross reference them as they're not exactly the same query.
This link is to the Devon thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,524556.0.html
Anne
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Hi Anne !
Do you by any chance know the address they might have been staying at during the 1861 census period ?
If so, you can sometimes search on the address, which would enable you to find any mistranscriptions that a direct search would miss.
For example, if they lived at the same address in 1851 and 1871, it is a fair assumption that 1861 would be the same.
Or maybe try the same address as 1851, or as 1871 ?
This only works if you have a rather specific address, eg 123 Brown Road.
What I mean is to search on the address, for any name living at that address on the census night.
If you have a likely-looking address at their time of marriage in 1857, this might be a good starting point to search for them in the 1861 census 4 years later.
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No address other than that listed on the B.C.'s of Helen, January 1861 and John, December 1862 which was just 'Hillhousefield', Leith - no number unfortunately.
Anne
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Perhaps George was away on Army service, and Anne and the children were staying with her parents the Dunns / Dons on that evening, which might explain why we can't find any 1861 census entry under Chissel, as the Head of the household's name was Dunn / Don ?!?
I don't know Anne's parents' names, presumably they were still living in Stirling, so worth a look under there perhaps ?
Or maybe with George's family in Devon on census night, so on the 1861 English Census, perhaps under a mistranscribed spelling of their surname ?
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I did think that dad George could possibly be elsewhere but dismissed that for some reason or another. (I've tried soooooo many options that I've forgotten now what made me think George would most likely to be 'at home'.)
I haven't, however, tried searching for Ann's parents. I know her mother re-married after her father died, but as yet, don't have dates or places.
Her father was John Don, Schoolmaster, her mother was Janet Chalmers who on her re-marriage, became Janet Lorimer (info from Ann's D.C., 1907).
I found it strange that Ann was illiterate (M.C. has 'mark' witnessed by 2 people), especially as her father was a Schoomaster. I'd have thought he'd have taught his own daughter to read and write!!
Anne
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Meant to say .....
George's parents were John Chissel & Sarah Penny.
I've found them in Devon in 1841, 1851, 1861 & 1871. They are both deceased by 1881 and they had no-one living with them on any of the Censuses.
Anne
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Anne,as an aside, the George Edwin Chissell Capt of the Royal Artillery killed in 1917
in WW1, was he one of yours? Grandson perhaps?
Joy
Edit to add - I can't seem to find Ann's parents in 1861 - when did John Don/Dun die? Don't seem to be able to see Janet Lorimer(if she had remarried by then) either. How positive are you that he was a schoolmaster? People often made their parents sound better eg Farmer sounds better than Ag Lab. Also, like you I find it impossible to believe that a schoolmaster's
child couldn't read and write.
J
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Oh no!!!!! not another Chissell coming out of the woodwork!! ;D
Seriously though .... I don't think George Edwin Chissell is part of this family.
Edmond George Chissel (Gordon Highlanders) who was killed in the Boer War was the grandson of George Penny Chissel, husband of Ann Dunn/Don and later Chissels had military service, but they're all 'accounted for'.
It's a very long convoluted story with bigamous marriages all over the place - it would take a year to try and explain all the twists and turns!
You might be right about Ann elaborating slightly about her father's occupation. She was listed as a Factory Worker on her MC, so perhaps the family had fallen on hard times? Their witnesses don't look like any sort of relatives either - one was called ...? Moore and the other Agnes M. Allan. These are the same people who witnesses Ann's 'mark', so presumably they actually knew who she was?
Anne
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Hi Anne
Can't see them for you either :-\ From the dates and events you have, likely they were in Leith for 1861, a few months after Helen's birth, or at least Ann with the children (Jane b. 1858 looks to have died the year she was born in Leith).
SP don't seem to have them either. I wonder if there was a problem with filming and quality?
Monica
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I have one query as to the place of birth of Helen in 1861. Hillhousefield is quoted yet the birth registration gave the address as Lapicide Lane in North Leith which was next to Leith Fort the headquarters of the royal artillery of Scotland at that time.
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Thank you for that VERY interesting piece of information!
I have contacted S.P. requesting a more legible copy of Helen's Birth Certificate as the copy I have I couldn't make out what it said (and wrongly presumed it was the same as John's).
It makes perfect sense that the family lived next to Leith Fort.
Anne (Off to try looking for them again!!)
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Nope, still can't find them!! >:(
Anne
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Hi Anne
Tried looking for them for you under an address of Lap* (with Unė kthimi i papenduar's details) and no joy unfortunately :-\ Not surprisingly really given that the children are not showing on the transcript (also tried SP) even just with a first name and no address/no parents/anywhere in Midlothian :-\
Monica :)
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Thank you Monica - I spent a few hours doing the same.
I tried looking for them individually - just entering first names (with and without approx years/places of birth), then adding key words like 'Lapicide' and 'Fort' and not a single sausage.
Do you remember my query a wee while back regarding John Ann Chissel nee Gibson? Well, the mystery of her disappearance has still not been solved, but as she vanishes, a Kate Alma Douglas, actress, appears in London who matches exactly. No concrete proof that she's one and the same, but both have the same year/place of birth, same father's first name, same connections to another 2 families in Stirling ........ ::)
But that's another story!! The Chissels I can't find in 1861 are her grandparents.
Anne
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Obviously disappearing ran in the genes... ;D
Great that you have a potential lead on Johnanne though! It's been a head-banging search for you.
Monica
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;D
Yes, maybe their surname should have been Houdini.
They were apparently very good at bigamy too!
Anne
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Thanks to everyone for their time on this thread - as you'll probably have noticed - I've amended the title adding 'Defeat admitted'. ::)
I've contacted S.P. with as many details as I can muster for the family, so in the meantime, it's a waiting game ........
However, there just happens to be another Chissel I can't find, so there'll be a new thread shortly!!
Anne
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We await your next Houdini Chissel, Anne ::) ;D
Monica
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Coming up shortly on Lanarkshire Board!
I'll add links back and forward to this thread once I get all the info organised.
Anne ;D
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Lanarkshire thread here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=524829.new
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Rather than concede defeat just yet, it may be worth dropping a note to North Leith Parish Church to enquire if they can help with further info.
http://tinyurl.com/42o2okm
Gordon
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Thanks Gordon.
I've tried everything I can think of, but I didn't think of contacting the Church. I already have the children's baptisms - they were all on George's Discharge Papers, so I know when and where each child was christened.
One of the staff at Scotland's People has read through all the original Census Pages for Lapicide Lane for me and couldn't find anything either. :-\
I don't think the Chissels were particularly 'Churchy' folk, but anything's worth a shot. If there was a Communion they may be listed but as I'm not really a 'Churchy' person either, I don't know any records of Communicants would be taken?
Thanks for your interest.
Anne
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Hi Anne
I don't know if it would help but Lapicide Lane is shown on this map http://geo.nls.uk/os6inch/google.html
It is just off North Fort Street, opposite the fort. It is still there today but it is called Lapicide Place.
http://www.edinburgh.org.uk/STREETS/part2/l.htm
Hillhousefield House was a short distance away near Pitt Street, just off South Fort Street.
Kirsty
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Hi Kirsty,
Thanks very much for the map - obviously a wee bit different from how it looks today!
Maybe the Chissels were out camping on one of the many surrounding fields.
Anne ;D
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To complicate matters;
Hillhousefield was renamed Trafalgar Lane, (where my mum lived) .
Fort Place, (where I lived until 9yrs old), was demolished, they built a new group of houses and named it ........ Hillhousefield! >:( :'(
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g163/featheredfish/rootschat/hillhousefield-trafalgarLn-fortplace.jpg)
Follow the pea, follow the pea, now which cup is it under? ;)
Gordon
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LOL! Thanks Gordon!
I've just downloaded all 12 pages of Leith Fort's 1861 Census to see if there was (by some teeny weeny chance) a Chissel missed somewhere along the way or their name had been so wildly mistranscribed that it might have been a variant I hadn't though of.
Nope!
Am I surprised? Nope again!! ::)
Anne
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An historical tale concerning the gunners of Leith Fort and the installing of the "One o'clock gun" at Edinburgh Castle.
"1861. Captains of ships anchored in the Forth set their chronometers by the ball at Nelson's Monument on the Calton Hill but as the ball could not be seen in misty weather an audible signal was required. A gun from Leith Fort was set up on the Castle's Half Moon Battery, connected electronically to the time ball and so the "One o'clock Gun" was fired for the first time."
http://www.1oclockgun.com/1861_gun_procedure.html
A family move to Edinburgh Castle perhaps.
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Here's a bio of a George Penny Chissel the younger, Glasgow Highlanders, (including photos). in .pdf format.
Researched by his grandson Dr Andre Chissel.
Old George, (if it is the correct one), sounds like he might had been a bit of a lad. ;D ;D
http://www.rhf.org.uk/gh/GH_News_SE1.pdf
I know it's not what we're searching for but a crumb's a crumb and this pile was way too good to pass by.
Gordon
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Thanks for that link Gordon.
I have been working with Andre on and off for the past 3/4 years and the George on this thread is his Gt. Grandfather.
It's been quite an experience following his family - they have kept me thoroughly entertained, but not being able to find them in 1861 is driving me bonkers!
Unė kthimi i papenduar - I thought of that too, but as Edinburgh Castle is still Midlothian, a name search should have found him, which it didn't.
Thanks for your continuing input!!
Anne
P.S. As for 'Old' George being a bit of a lad - oooooooh yes! But believe it or not - he had nothing on the ladies in the family!!
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Is it possible he could have been posted outside the UK at the time of census?
I've come across a reference to the 1861 Army Index created by Frank Turner in the 1880's
"The indexation entailed the extraction of some 245,000 soldiers listed in the WO 10 (Royal Artillery), WO 11 (Royal Engineers) and WO 12 (Cavalry, Guards, Infantry and other units) series War Office Paylists in the March-June Quarter of 1861. The index was acquired by Military and Historical Searches upon retirement of the compiler.
I have no idea if this is work is generally available. however, this pro-researcher has access to it. > http://www.pro-search.co.uk/1861_army.htm
Gordon
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It's always possible he was elsewhere at that exact time (but would he trail along Ann & the weans with him - or would he be allowed to do so?)
Andre has already had a researcher at Kew look through everything there is to find - and yes, just for a change, George wasn't to be found at that specific date.
Every other bloomin' date except the one we're looking for!
I really can't imagine them being out of the country for any other reason apart from something to do with the military. If it was the case he was abroad somewhere - I doubt if it would have been worth the effort for such a short time to uproot the family. All supposition of course!
He registered the children's births, so he wasn't very far for very long.
Anne
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Hmmm
The only other thought which crossed my mind, given his wee outbursts, was perhaps he was banged up in military prison, rather than the civilian one.
Greenlaw and Glencorse at Penicuik was part barracks / part military jail back then.
(The unsafe condition of the timber jail was being debated in the House of Lords in 1883).
From Hansard > http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1883/aug/14/question-observations
Even if that were the case, it still begs the question about his Mrs and sproglets whereabouts, ......... I know. :(
It's amazing the amount of wood shavings you can get from the bottom of a barrel huh? :D
Gordon
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;D
Funnily enough, when I was using A****try, I tried entering 'inmate/prisoner/barracks' etc - anything I could think of for an 'institution', but again, no George (or any other) Chissels.
I've tried every spelling variant under the sun. His eldest son George was George Chissel on his 1st Marriage Registration, then George Chisholm on his 2nd. (Parents George & Ann also listed as Chisholm)
This was possibly an attemt to cover up that the 2nd marriage was bigamous!
But again, that's another story! LOL!!
Anne
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Hahaha!!
I know when I'm beat. :D :D
(http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/white-flag-25.gif)
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Me too Gordon - much as I hate to admit it . . . . . . 'Defeat admitted'!
;D