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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Convictlass on Friday 01 April 11 02:25 BST (UK)
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Hi Rootschatters,
I am in a bit of a muddle. Just spoke to someone who clarified one area but left another branch of my tree in ruins. So here is the problem:
Jane HARFORD (b, 1859 in Melbourne?) married a Thomas William RICHARDS (b. about 1849) in Adelong NSW, 14th September 1875. I had thought his parents were William RICHARDS and Elizabeth HIGGINS, but apparently not. They had a son Thomas and another son William, but not one that combined both names.
I have a transcript of the Harford/Richards wedding cert, which is no use at all. It says that TWR was an ironmonger and lists his usual residence as Daylesford, Victoria (?) while Jane’s residence is Adelong NSW. Mum believes that Jane was born in Melbourne and Mum knew Jane, who died when she was about six.
I have spoken to some people in Adelong who have newspaper articles about Jesse HARFORD, who is listed as a witness at Jane’s wedding – he may be her father. The other witness is Emma Hoskin – I can’t find anything about her.
Can anyone suggest where I should look now? I am still a learner so please list any websites with addresses, please. I have done so much work on this line and now the foundation has crumbled :'( :'( :'(. Any help would be very muchly appreciated...
Convictlass
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Hi there,
Firstly, DON'T PANIC ...
Secondly, You won't be the first to have the odd crumble in some foundation
Thirdly, If you want this thread on the Aussie Board, please report my post to the moderator, to alert them.
Many Cheers,
JM (NSW centric)
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Not sure about Vic records from this time, but would Thomas's death certificate give parent's names?
Where did you get his parent's names from anyway?
Also, am wondering who is the person who gave you this new information. You are usually advised to do your own research (some people get it wrong) at least to confirm what they are telling you. :)
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Hi there,
From an online index of BDM registrations in Victoria
Registration number 18116, in 1859 for Jane Harford
Her father Jno Harford (Jno often is abbreviation for John)
Her mother Mary Ann Dollard
Birth registered at Northcote, Victoria
You can obtain a copy of that registration straight away by using your plastic card ... I think it is around $18, and I included the rego number as that can save a penny or so
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=getHistIdxSearchCriteria
Cheers, JM
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$18.95 to be exact - by the time you've looked at the 99c bit first! Not sure you can avoid that bit - I've never been able to!!
Victorian records are in general very good for filling in details - unlike some other states (like Tasmania - until 1914 anyhow) paying online allows you to download the certificate immediately! Great service.
Wiggy :)
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The 99 cents is saved by majm having already given the REGISTRATION in her posting.
Nothing more is necessary from the 99 cent page!!
Sue
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;D
You avoid the 99 cents if you include the rego number :D
Wiggy's spot on about the detail on those Vic records ... I think they are the very best ... I wish more of my forebears were in Victoria ...
For example on my g grandparents m.c. from the 1860's and at Ballarat, I have :
The full names of both sets of their parents, including nee name and where those 4 were then living and the occupations of the men AND
I also have the addresses for both the bride and groom, and their occupations, and clear signatures for the bride, groom, witnesses etc.
I also have the birth registrations for the first few of their large family, and the death registration for one of their infants. ALL very informative, and confirming various private information contained in family's own Birthday Books, Family Bibles and correspondence ..
Cheers, JM
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Re the 1875 marriage for Jane ...
It is possible that the transcript is incomplete ... it should have information about the parents of both the bride and the groom. This information was required by the clergy marrying them, BUT if it is not on the transcript, then it is very likely that the NSW BDM Reg General's office did not receive ALL the information.
As this marriage was 1875, and thus was BEFORE the 1879 NSW Act of Parliament which attempted to enforce the civil registration rules, then it could well be that you may need to research the old parish records rather than rely on the transcript information.
Here's a link to a post of mine where I try to explain what was happening in NSW Civil Registration matters in that era ...
Back shortly HERE TIS http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,522487.45.html and the long post (even long for me) at reply #54
Cheers, JM
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The 99 cents is saved by majm having already given the REGISTRATION in her posting.
Nothing more is necessary from the 99 cent page!!
Sue
Thanks Sue - I'll remember that next time I apply for one!! ;) Every $saved helps!
Wiggy
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NLA digi newspapers have lots of mentions, mostly to do with mining, with the name HARFORD in Adelong.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/search?adv=y
Perhaps Jane had gone to stay with relatives there?
Looking at NSW BMDs it would seem that there may be a couple of generations with the name Jesse HARFORD.
Do you know where TWR was born?
Judith
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Possible sidetrack BUT
1870 NSW Electoral Roll for The Tumut
Thomas HANFORD (definitely HANford, not HARford, it is alpha by surname) at residence Adelong ... cannot see anyone with surname HARFORD on that roll...
Did not find RICHARDS there either ...
Will check the 1878 records that I have ....
Cheers, JM
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Well I diverted to the 1875 GREVILLES directory for Adelong (remember that the info was most likely collected in 1874 for publication in early 1875)
Thomas Handford was a miner in Camp St
BUT there's
J Harford, mining manager, Adelong Creek !
NO sighting for Mr Richards yet
Cheers, JM
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Harford marriages in Adelong -
Margaret M m. Walter Justine Adams 2737/1875
Jane Caroll Harford m. Thomas William Richards 2738/1875
Maybe sisters marrying on the same day?
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NSW ER 1878 The Tumut
Jesse HARFORD, residence at Williams Town (in the police district of Gundagai)
James RICHARDS, residence at Adelong (in the police district of Gundagai)
Cannot find Thomas RICHARDS there
Cheers, JM
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Harford marriages in Adelong -
Margaret M m. Walter Justine Adams 2737/1875
Jane Caroll Harford m. Thomas William Richards 2738/1875
Maybe sisters marrying on the same day?
;D According to online submitted tree (so it needs verifying, checking etc) Jane married at the Wesleyan Church in Adelong, NSW on 14 September 1875 . There's no mention on that submitted tree as to Margaret M ....
Cheers, JM
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Online index for birth registration for Thomas William RICHARDS
Thomas William Richards
His father Thomas Richards
His mother Dorothy (no nee name indexed)
registered at Melbourne, Victoria
In 1849
Registration # 16574
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
Not sure but ... (middle name for Jane shown as Havell, and parents named on d.c. index are different from b.c.)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/17286672 SMH 7 November 1936
RICHARDS-November 6, 1936, at 339 Marrlckvllle Rd. Marrickville. Jane Havell, relict of the late Thomas William Richards, ..... mentions names of Jane Havell RICHARDS children.
Although from that cutting, this Thomas William preceded Jane Havell, I have not found the notice.
Jane's d.c. is indexed online, and the informant provided her parents given names as Jesse and Elizabeth. NSW BDM 22830/1936 registered Marrickville District.
Cheers, JM
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I know you are looking for Thomas, but just a bit on the HARFORDS....
Jesse Havel HARFORD died in 1914 in NSW, aged 50, husband of Ellen, late of Yerranderie and Gundagai.
His father Jesse HARFORD died in 1913 at Maitland, aged 86, late of Adelong and Gundagai.
It is likely that these are the brother and father of Jane Havel(l) HARFORD. Both Jane and Jesse have parents as Jesse and Elizabeth on their death reg.
Jesse and Elizabeth had two children at Adelong, Thomas (1873) and Amy Havel (1877). One of these birth certs should tell you where the parents were born and married, and hopefully help you find Jane's place of birth.
Are you saying that Jane and Thomas's marriage cert doesn't tell you where they were born either? If this is the case, then the birth cert of any of their children should give you that information.
As JM said, Jane's death notice indicates that Thomas was already deceased, and she also appears without him on the 1930 electoral roll. I also can't see a Thomas or William born to them, only Mabel and Cecil in Victoria, and the two children at Coonamble who died as infants. The son Sydney mentioned in the death notice may have been born in 1889 in NSW.
Have you looked to see if Thomas is buried with Jane at Rookwood?
Debra :)
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NSW State Records Office and their index for the Register of Auriferous Leases has Jesse HARFORD and Jesse HARFORD Senior mentioned.
So in early 1879 a receipt was issued to Jesse Harford re Gold Mining at Adelong. (Other names are mentioned as per the index should help you verify information you have been given that has caused a slight crumble in that foundation)
Other names: The Williams Amalgamated Gold Mining Company Limited; Receipt issued to: Harford, Jesse"
So in Dec 1899 Harford Jesse (Senior) registered a lease in Gundagai
I think that these could be for the same chap, one in 1879, and the other some 20 years later, when by then he had a son, also named Jesse Harford.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/ this is the link, and by using the keyword "Harford" you can find lots of mentions in the indexes ... Some of the indexes will give you the option to obtain a photocopy of the full record, other indexes, you need to view the record at the Archives.
Cheers JM
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OK, so all the children were born in Vic under the surname HAVELL, I knew there was something odd going on there! ::)
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Births (Victoria)
Jane HAVELL
1856
#13109
Justine HAVELL
Elizabeth JONES
Not named
1861
#10077
Jestiann HAVELL
Elizabeth JONES
Jesse HAVELL
1863
Steiglitz
#1248
Jestion HAVELL
Elizabeth JONES
Thomas HAVELL
1865
Steiglitz
#10171
Jestion HAVELL
Elizabeth JONES
William HAVELL
1867
Big Hill
#4962
Jesse HAVELL
Eliz JONES
Susan HAVELL
1870
Steiglitz
#?
Jesse HAVELL
Elizabeth JONES
Births (NSW)
Thomas HARFORD
1873
Adelong
#11707
Jesse Havell
Elizabeth
Amy Havel HARFORD
1877
Adelong
#13101
Jesse H.
Elizabeth
Deaths (Victoria)
Thomas HAVELL
1858
#2900
Jestion HARFORD
Elizabeth JONES
James HAVELL
1865
aged 11
#10170
Jestion
Elizabeth JONES
Deaths (NSW)
Thomas H. HARFORD
1875
Adelong
#6580
Jessie H.
Elizabeth
Amy married George LYALL and died in 1942, Susan married Henry RAINE and died in 1943.
This could be Jesse and Elizabeth's marriage in England, they appear on the same page:
December Quarter
1853
Truro, Cornwall
Jestioun HAVELL
Elizabeth JONES
Possibly Jesse's baptism:
Moulton, Northampton, England
30 May 1830
Justinian HAVILL
Parents: James HAVILL, Martha
There were at least three other children to James and Martha but they all died as infants (Lavinia, Hannah and Clarke).
Have had no luck with locating Jesse on the 1841/1851 census.
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
https://www.familysearch.org/#form=advanced-records
You can get a copy of Jesse Jnr's 1863 Victorian birth cert here (stray certificates)
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~emhist/strays_b.htm
Debra :)
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I noticed your post about the Harfords.
I am researching Jesse Havel Harford b1863 in Steiglitz, Victoria who married Ellen Barbara Gordon and wondered if this was the same Jesse you mentioned.
Any help appreciated
Eleanor
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Hello Eleanor and a big welcome to Rootschat ;D
I was not involved in this thread but the Jesse you are researching is one of the children of Jesse HARFORD and Elizabeth JONES. Here is his birth as it is listed in the Index:
Jesse HAVELL b 1863 Steiglitz - Jestion HAVELL and Elizabeth JONES # 12401
Jesse's marriage in NSW:
4301/1891 HARFORD JESSE GORDON ELLEN B GUNDAGAI
Their children { there may have been more after 1910 when the Index finishes}
15986/1892 HARFORD JUSTIN G JESSE ELLEN B GUNDAGAI
16152/1893 HARFORD WILLIAM H JESSE ELLEN B GUNDAGAI
3758/1901 HARFORD ELLEN M JESSE ELLEN B GUNDAGAI
Jesse's death:
6648/1914 HARFORD JESSE H JESSE H ELIZABETH ST LEONARDS
Ellen's death:
25697/1936 HARFORD ELLEN BARBARA DAVID AGNES FOULDS PARRAMATTA
Son William's marriage:
15355/1920 & 15356/1920 HARFORD WILLIAM H KULMAR DOROTHY B V SYDNEY
His death:
3160/1964 HARFORD WILLIAM HAROLD JESSE ELLEN SYDNEY
Ellen's marriage:
16939/1921 RUTLEDGE FREDERICK D HARFORD ELLEN M WOOLLAHRA
Regards
Alison
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Thank you so much
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Following on from Alison's post
NSW Electoral Roll 1903, THE HUME, and polling at Gundagai
Jesse HARFORD, a miner at Gundagai (no street address given on that roll, no others with that surname enrolled for that particular polling place)
Cheers, JM
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Thanks everyone for all your help.
I am having trouble because Jestion HAVELL marries Ellen Barbara Gordon. There first few children are born in Steiglitz in Vic under the name of HAVELL . When they move to Adelong NSW they seem to have changed name to HARFORD with some of the kids named HARFORD and others with Havel as middle name. Confusing +++
Anyone shed some light for me please?
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Sorry I should have said married Elizabeth Jones
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Hi,
Do you know if the NSW 1891 m.c. for Jesse and Ellen gives the names of their parents? It is possible that it may have blanks on the NSW BDM record that Alison lists, but there's always the option to gain access to the local parish register to obtain those details. Perhaps that document will help towards explaining the surname change.
Jesse's marriage in NSW: 4301/1891 HARFORD JESSE GORDON ELLEN B GUNDAGAI (Alison)
If you have the NSW BDM details of their m.c. and it has blanks particularly for the names of the parents of the bride and groom, the occupations of their fathers, the ages/occupations of the bride and groom, don't be too concerned, because the clergy conducting that marriage was definitely required to obtain and record those details, and with a little bit of work, they should be findable.
Cheers, JM