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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: Danedan on Thursday 31 March 11 16:02 BST (UK)
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Hi All
New poster on this site. I ve just found that my GGGG Grandfather Michael Woods was married at Clonallon Church in 1856 to Elizabeth English, unfortunately I have no other details about the marriage and was hoping someone may be able to help? They were both of full age. I believe they were born around 1835.
I believe they moved to England (Jarrow) within a few years where my GGG Grandfather John was born. (I believe they lived in Jarrow in 1861 and in 1871 moved to Liverpool, by the time of the 1881 Census they had moved back to the North East. The census information had Michael Woods and Elizabeth English as being natives of Newry, Co Armagh, Elizabeth had a brother, John who lived in Jarrow in 1871 with wife Catherine he was born in c1837.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Michael Woods and Elizabeth were married 27/10/1856 (Clonallon Parish Records). Unusually the record doesn't name the bestman or bridesmaid. Civil record might have this if they had begun then.
John English married Catherine Woods on 31/12/ 1861. Witnesses were Michael McAlinden and Alice Smith.
Ill have a look at the baptism register later for births. Hope this helps.
Answer
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Is this the church?
http://www.chrono.qub.ac.uk/local/down/Clonallon/
If so, it is Church of Ireland and registration of non-Catholic marriages began in 1845 not 1864.
The marriage certificate will list names of 2 witnesses (bestmen and bridesmaids were a common feature in 19th century marriages)
Or is this the church?
http://www.lisburn.com/books/dromore-diocese/parish-stmarys-clonallon.html
If so, there will be no civil certificate.
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Thanks for that information Aghadowey. Yes the information I gave came from the Roman Catholic parish records. Aghadowey's link will give information on 3 Clonallon parishes which were a unit until they were set up as independent parishes in 1984. The history of all 3 parishes can be got from Aghadowey's link.The three parishes and three churches with their current official church name and popular names are:-
St. Peter's Clonallon, (Warrenpoint)
St. Mary's Clonallon, (Burren)
St. Patrick's Clonallon (Mayobridge)
Prior to 1984 there was just Clonallon Parish and one set of parish registers. Since 1984 each parish now keeps its own registers. The information I gave in earlier post comes from the pre 1984 register which dates back to circa 1820's for baptisms and marriages up to 1984. The register covering the 1900's never indicates which particular church an event took place in. Hope this clarifies source of records.
Answer
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Hi Answer / Aghadowey
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I now realise (in my ignorance) that the Newry referred to in the English Census is not in Co Armagh (this was my interpretation) but in Co Down.
I appreciate all the data you can give me and look forward to any baptism information.
By the way is there no parental information on the Church marriage records?
Thanks again
Mike
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Early (pre-registration) church marriage records often give little detail (sometimes just date, bride and groom)- after registration then civil certificates list fathers' names and occupations.
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Hi again
Any advice on how or where I could track down birth / baptism records for these families?
Thanks
Mike
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Thanks for that information Aghadowey. Yes the information I gave came from the Roman Catholic parish records. Aghadowey's link will give information on 3 Clonallon parishes which were a unit until they were set up as independent parishes in 1984. The history of all 3 parishes can be got from Aghadowey's link.The three parishes and three churches with their current official church name and popular names are:-
St. Peter's Clonallon, (Warrenpoint)
St. Mary's Clonallon, (Burren)
St. Patrick's Clonallon (Mayobridge)
Prior to 1984 there was just Clonallon Parish and one set of parish registers. Since 1984 each parish now keeps its own registers. The information I gave in earlier post comes from the pre 1984 register which dates back to circa 1820's for baptisms and marriages up to 1984. The register covering the 1900's never indicates which particular church an event took place in. Hope this clarifies source of records.
Answer
There's a link to listing of Co.Down R.C. church records in DOWN RESOURCES at the top of this board- scroll down for Clonallon:
http://www.from-ireland.net/county/article/R.-C.-Parish-Records-On-Microfilm%2C-Co.-Down/Down
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Thanks Aghadowey
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A Michael Woods was baptised (2.8.1832). Parents Peter Woods and Mary ? (Maiden name not listed)
A Catherine Woods was baptised (5.12.1841). Parents Peter Woods and Mary ? (Again Maiden name not listed)
These would seem to be the same family. I see two other Woods (Mary 14.10.1835 and Peter 20.11.1829) with father's christian name as Peter and mother's christian name as Mary and no surname but that may just be a co-incidence.The only other details are the sponsors' names.
There are no John or Elizabeth christian names in the English names for baptism.
But there are an Arthur (9.01.1869) and Patrick (12.08.1874) baptisms for children whose parents are John English and Catherine Woods.
Hope this is useful. As Aghadowey has said all of this is pre civil registration, so there are only church registers which are not available to the public. Many are in very poor condition and also very difficult to read. But I believe the Latter Day Saints may have been allowed to make images of church registers in the 1950's and a Belfast group were allowed to copy up to year 1900 in the 1990's. These are probably computerised by now but tend to pay perview.
Answer
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Answer
Very useful indeed. Thank you so much.
I may be able to visit the LDS (in London) but would have struggled to find this information otherwise, really appreciate it.
I also have John English and Catherine English (nee Woods) in 1871 English Census with a son Arthur.
Best wishes
Mike
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I believe this is them in 1861 - the Enumerator has mistranscribed the information from the original census sheet badly (i.e. he has Michael down as John). I have seen occurences of this before.
1861 England Census- Jarrow, South Shields (registration district), Hedworth, Monkton and Jarrow (civil parish), Co.Durham
John Wood 28
Elizabeth Wood, wife, 27, born Ireland
Mary A Wood 3 b. Jarrow
Alice Wood 2 b. Jarrow
John English 25, Brother in law b. Ireland
Edward Murray 48 Boarder, Labourer, b. Ireland
John must have gone back to Ireland that year and married Catherine. Possibly Michael's sister?
You probably have them in 1871 but here it is just in case :
1871 England Census- Liverpool, Toxteth Park (civil parish), St. James (ecclesiastical parish), West Derby (registration district), Lancashire
Michael Woods, 36, born Ireland
wife Elizabeth Woods
Alice Woods 11
John Woods 9
Elizabeth Woods 7
Catherine Woods 5
Michael Woods 2
Harriet Woods 5 Months
William Mottram 63
Elizabeth Dougherty 25
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A Michael Woods was baptised (2.8.1832). Parents Peter Woods and Mary ? (Maiden name not listed)
A Catherine Woods was baptised (5.12.1841). Parents Peter Woods and Mary ? (Again Maiden name not listed)
These would seem to be the same family. I see two other Woods (Mary 14.10.1835 and Peter 20.11.1829) with father's christian name as Peter and mother's christian name as Mary and no surname but that may just be a co-incidence.The only other details are the sponsors' names.
I know the Clonallon parish register quite well as that is my home parish and usually when the priest didn't put a surname beside the mother's name it meant that she had the same surname as her husband, i.e. Peter Woods and Mary Woods. Because most people married within their parish (although there was always the exception to the rules!), it was common enough to see couples with the same surnames who may or may not have been distantly related or not related at all.
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Hi Murney
Many apologies for the late reply but thanks a lot for your help and advice. I agree with you in terms of the census of 1861 too.
Best of Luck
Mike