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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: ladyhall on Thursday 31 March 11 14:04 BST (UK)
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Hi
I'm a bit of a newbie and have discovered after months of research and some desperately needed help that my great great grandfather who I had originally thought was called Alfred Taylor b. 1857 Shadwell, may now be Moss Benjamin b1857 St Luke, London son of Abraham Benjamin b.1815 Holland. This all began because I couldn't find the maiden name for Alfred's wife and my great grandmother Catherine Amy b. 1857 Southampton (i have death cert for her), and after some research it seems that Alfred and his wife Catherine Amy cannot be found under the name Taylor prior to 1901 (census). I would like to verify somehow that this was actually the case? If so, does anyone know if this was common occurance and was there somewhere where it would be legally changed? Where I could find more information? If anyone could help me verify that this is most likely the case then I would be ever so grateful.
Children of Catherine Amy Taylor and Alfred Taylor in 1901
Earnest Charles b.1878
Philip Horace b.1879
Maud Adelaide b. 1888
Dennis Evelyn b.1897
Clifford b.1894
Hilda Mary b.1896
Reginald b.1891
Amy Louise b.1876
Amy L Granddaughter b. 1900 - Cannot find her birth certificate either..? I think she is child to Amy Louise as is stated in 1911 census. Her full name on that census is Amy Francis Maluka Ellis (father Frances Robert Ellis)
I think if I could find a death certificate for Moss Benjamin that would change everything but haven't been able to I'm still unsure?
Any help would be much much appreciated.
Thanks!
A
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Hi Welcome to RootsChat
A person can change his or her name simply by using a different name with sufficient consistency to become generally known by that name. A change is normally given formal publicity, e.g. by means of a statutory declaration, deed poll, or newspaper advertisement, but this is not legally necessary.
See http://www.ukdps.co.uk/IsADeedPollRegisteredAnywhere.html
Stan
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Do you have any idea of marraige details for your gt-grandparents?
I see from freeBMD that Catherine Amy Grubb may have m Moss Benjamin in 1876
Marriages Sep 1876
Benjamin Moss St. Geo. East 1c 807
GRUBB Catherine Amy St Geo East 1c 807
Norton Henry St. Geo. East 1c 807
Silversides Maria St. Geo. East 1c 807
Might it be worth getting that certificate?
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i could well be reading your post wrong but this would appear to be your alfred/catherine amy prior to 1901 on the 1891 census.
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891&indiv=try&h=9850683
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The 1881 census seems to support the theory - the children's names match
RG11, 450, 46, Page 43
Benjamin, Mass Head, Married M 24
Benjamin, Catherine Wife, Married F 24
Benjamin, Amy S Daughter, Single F 4
Benjamin, Ernest C. Son, Single M 2
Benjamin, Horace P Son, Single M 1
AMBROSE, John Boarder Single M 21
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you beat me to it there!
edited to add - "Mass Benjanm" and "Alfred Taylor" were both waste paper dealers too
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just to confirm Annies marriage.London marriages has Moss married to Catherine & father listed as Abraham Benjamin.
jim
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Looking at Catherine and Moss/Alfred's children's names, I can find several possible matches in St Geo East and Stepney under the surname of Benjamin, but not under Taylor. This is right up to 1896 - Hilda - by which time the family, if it is indeed the same one, were already calling themselves Taylor on the census returns.
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I wonder if he chose Taylor because that's what his father was (tailor)
A bit simplistic I know.
jim
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Does the original poster have any of the children's birth certificates - for the mother's maiden name?
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I wonder if he chose Taylor because that's what his father was (tailor)
A bit simplistic I know.
Very possible. I have his father pos. Abraham Benjamin down as a trader in feathers - where did you see tailor?
Does the original poster have any of the children's birth certificates - for the mother's maiden name?
No I have no birth certificates for Taylor at all. Have spent a long time looking for them. These births certainly do tally up both in name and birth date for all the children which is fairly unusual wouldn't you say?
I would really like to find a death certificate for Moss Benjamin as this would help but I don't think there is one?
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1841 census has Abraham listed as tailor.
Abraham Benjamin/28/tailor/foreign parts
Louisa/24
Benjamin/1
In 1861 listed as Ostrich feather maker.
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When and where did Catherine Amy die and what does it say about her marital status?
When was the last time you can find Moss/Alfred? That would help narrow down his death of course.
Carol
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Catherine Amy (Taylor) died 22nd Oct 1915 (59) - her death cert says she was a widow to Alfred Taylor - General Dealer
Birth date: abt 1856 Birth place:Southampton Death date: Dec 1915 Death place: London, Middlesex, United Kingdom
The first time I have Alfred taylor is in the 1891 census and Moss Benjamin I believe is the 1881 census. So between those years he must have changed his name or it's they both disappear?
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It looks like he died between 1901 and 1911 then- cos she's widowed by then too.
Carol
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I have a date for Alfred Taylor as have his death certificate 1906, Shadwell.
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From the censuses:
1891 - (Taylor) - 153, high rd, shadwell
1901 - (Taylor) - 154, high st, shadwell
From FreeBMD:
Births Mar 1896
Benjamin Hilda Mary Stepney 1c 393
Births Jun 1897
Benjamin Evelyn Dennis Stepney 1c 393
Since the Taylors were at the same address in 1891 and 1901, it might be worth getting the certificate of one of these two Benjamin children to see where they were born.
The OP says:
Children of Catherine Amy Taylor and Alfred Taylor in 1901
Earnest Charles b.1878
Philip Horace b.1879
Maud Adelaide b. 1888
Dennis Evelyn b.1897
Clifford b.1894
Hilda Mary b.1896
Reginald b.1891
Amy Louise b.1876
and the following are on freeBMD:
Births Sep 1878
BENJAMIN Ernest Charles St. Geo. East 1c 375
Births Dec 1879
Benjamin Horace Philip St. Geo. East 1c 387
Births Dec 1888
BENJAMIN Maud Adelaide St. Geo. East 1c 359
Births Jun 1897
Benjamin Evelyn Dennis Stepney 1c 393
Births Jun 1894
Benjamin Clifford Benjamin Stepney 1c 391
Births Mar 1896
Benjamin Hilda Mary Stepney 1c 393
Births Mar 1891
BENJAMIN Reingold Louis St. Geo. East 1c 404
Births Dec 1876
BENJAMIN Amy Louisa St.Geo.East 1c 403
---and not a Taylor amongst them!
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Amy L Granddaughter b. 1900 - Cannot find her birth certificate either..? I think she is child to Amy Louise as is stated in 1911 census. Her full name on that census is Amy Francis Maluka Ellis (father Frances Robert Ellis)
The military records for Francis Robert ELLIS record his marriage to Amy Louise as having taken place on 26 Feb 1899 at All Saints, Woodford Wells, Essex, and the birth of their daughter Amy Francis Maluka ELLIS as having taken place on 25 July 1899, Wapping.
Marriage reg, Mar qtr 1899: Francis Robert ELLIS/Amy Louisa TAYLOR, West Ham 4a 277
Birth reg, Sep qtr 1899: Amy Frances M ELLIS, Stepney 1c 372 (She was subsequently baptised at Christ Church, Watney Street on 25 March 1902).
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I have a date for Alfred Taylor as have his death certificate 1906, Shadwell.
On the death certificate what address is given in column 1 - When and where died, or does it just say Shadwell and no more?
and who is the informant shown in column 7 - Signature, description and residence of informant, and what is their address?
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Death cert for Alfred Taylor:
14/jan/1906 London Hospital
Alfred Taylor Male 49ys
Box dealer
9 Sarah street Shadwell
C.A Taylor widow of decesed - 9 Sarah Street Shadwell (informant) reg Jan 1906
Reg District Whitechapel, Mile End New town
Thanks!
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Just wanted to say a big big thank you for all your help so far. It's amazing what you can do when you know how.. Just need the know how now! haha
Does everyone agree that it's highly likely to be the same family and that Moss has decided to change his name for whatever reason between those particular dates? It's a shame there are no records of these name changes on paper but it seems the most likely outcome?
A
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Well, I have to say that it looks very very likely that Moss Benjamin became Alfred Taylor.
If it was me, I would send for one of the birth certificates, either Hilda Mary or Evelyn Dennis, to see what is given as the mother's maiden name. If its Grubb then as far as I'm concerned that would absolutely clinch it.
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I agree wholeheartedly with David ;D
I wonder if he just wanted to become 'less jewish ' sounding.
Or did he change his name for another reason,bankruptcy is often one reason.
Carol
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Well I shall keep you posted as I sent off for a few certificates yesterday! Exciting. Seeing the family on Sunday so shall give them a bit of a surprise.
Thanks very much again.
Alex
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I'l look forward to hearing the denoument from the certs!
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Hello all,
I have just received back the certificates I ordered. The one of most interest was the death cert of Reginald Benjamin who died aged 2 months old. He is named as such and parents are Moss and Catherine Amy Benjamin (formerly Grubb) but they are noted as living on Shadwell High street which is the same address I have for Alfred Taylor!
It seems therefore that they were in fact one in the same person! Now I have to try and work out how to trace his father born in Amsterdam! Any ideas would be gratefully received.
Meanwhile, thank you all so much for all your help. xx
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Thanks for letting us know!
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You might have already come across these, but just in case - when I found a surprise Jewish branch in my family JCR_UK http://www.jewishgen.org/JCR-UK/ and JGSGB http://www.jgsgb.org.uk/ really useful!
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'were' really useful - must learn to type all the words :-[
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Ah thank you, that's great!
I shall go take a look!
Best
Alex
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In terms of tracing Abraham back further, have you traced his marriage to Louisa? She was born in London so with any luck they will have married in England. Do you have her maiden name (from e.g. the birth certificate of Moss or one of his siblings)?
NB I see that they already had baby Benjamin before the 1841 census so they may or may not have married during the period covered by civil registration (1 Jul 1837 onwards).
His likely birth: Benjamin Abraham BENJAMIN, Jun qtr 1840 Whitechapel 2 506.
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9th Dec 1838 Abraham Benjamin son of Eliahu married a
leah Joseph daughter of Shmuel Leah was often also called Louise
this marriage is in Great Synagogue records.
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9th Dec 1838 Abraham Benjamin son of Eliahu married a
leah Joseph daughter of Shmuel Leah was often also called Louise
this marriage is in Great Synagogue records.
Oh that's a great find!
Civil registration of the marriage is as follows:
Marriage, Dec qtr 1838
Abraham BENJAMIN
Leah JOSEPH
[City of] London 2 161
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I can't help, but just book-marking so I can follow this thread !
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9th Dec 1838 Abraham Benjamin son of Eliahu married a
leah Joseph daughter of Shmuel Leah was often also called Louise
this marriage is in Great Synagogue records.
Hi, May I ask how you came about the information? That's really interesting. are Eliahu and Shmuel their surnames?
Thanks
Alex
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In terms of tracing Abraham back further, have you traced his marriage to Louisa? She was born in London so with any luck they will have married in England. Do you have her maiden name (from e.g. the birth certificate of Moss or one of his siblings)?
NB I see that they already had baby Benjamin before the 1841 census so they may or may not have married during the period covered by civil registration (1 Jul 1837 onwards).
His likely birth: Benjamin Abraham BENJAMIN, Jun qtr 1840 Whitechapel 2 506.
No, I don't yet have a birth certificate for any of the children. Was about to order
Adelaide Benjamin
Year of Registration: 1848
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Whitechapel
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 2
Page: 5[79]1 .
I'm not sure but it seems the most likely. This should give me more information hopefully wouldn't you agree?
Thank you!
Alex
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Adelaide looks like a good bet too - but there is an error in the page number in the FreeBMD trancription of her birth registration index (it should be 592).
The birth certificate may not give you much new information other than hopefully confirming mother's maiden name as JOSEPH, so as to provide a match with the 1838 marriage which sandiep found for you.
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In terms of tracing Abraham back further, have you traced his marriage to Louisa? She was born in London so with any luck they will have married in England. Do you have her maiden name (from e.g. the birth certificate of Moss or one of his siblings)?
NB I see that they already had baby Benjamin before the 1841 census so they may or may not have married during the period covered by civil registration (1 Jul 1837 onwards).
His likely birth: Benjamin Abraham BENJAMIN, Jun qtr 1840 Whitechapel 2 506.
I think you may have a different Abraham as I don't have a Benjamin listed on my children? I have Abraham b.1813 m. Louisa
Children
Jane
Rosetta
Philip
Moss
Isaac
Solomon
?
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You might have already come across these, but just in case - when I found a surprise Jewish branch in my family JCR_UK http://www.jewishgen.org/JCR-UK/ and JGSGB http://www.jgsgb.org.uk/ really useful!
Thank you! I shall have a study! I've got lots of homework :-\
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I think you may have a different Abraham as I don't have a Benjamin listed on my children? I have Abraham b.1813 m. Louisa
No, I don't think I have a different Abraham. Here they are in 1841:
Sun St, St Botolph without Bishopsgate: HO107/725 bk 10 f18 p31
Abraham BENJAMIN 28 Tailor Born Foreign Parts
Louisa do 24 Born in county
Benj. do 1 Born in county
(Benjamin was still at the family home in 1851, aged 11)
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I think you may have a different Abraham as I don't have a Benjamin listed on my children? I have Abraham b.1813 m. Louisa
Children
Jane
Rosetta
Philip
Moss
Isaac
Solomon
?
There are further children you haven't listed:
Lewis/Louis - at home in 1851, 1861 (FreeBMD has his likely birth as Lewis BENJAMIN in Dec qtr 1843, City of London)
and of course Adelaide, b 1848, whom you know about.
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Blimey yes! Thanks. I find the census so hard to read. I guess that takes a lot of practise too... Can you tell what the address is on the 1951 census? and what is written next to Benjamin?
Thanks! x
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The address in 1851 is 8 Newnham Street, Goodmans Fields, St Mary Whitechapel. Reference is HO107/1546/118/3.
Benjamin BENJAMIN, aged 11, is a scholar, born St Mary Whitechapel.
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"Hi, May I ask how you came about the information? That's really interesting. are Eliahu and Shmuel their surnames?"
sorry took me a bit to reply computor problems had to resort to a new one!!
Eliahu & Shmuel will be the parents 1st names and I have the Great Synagogue & Bevis Marks synagogue registers of marriage for quite a few years.......my husbands family turned out to be Jewish and I was really lucky to turn up the books especially Bevis Marks one.......Jewish familys are difficult to research they have a habit of changing names!!!!!
sandie
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Jewish families typically used Old Testament Biblical names ... so Eliahu (Elihu) is from the book of Job, and Shmuel is another version of Samuel
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Interesting thread as I too have been
trying to
find what happenend to a BENJAMIN family in London.
source 1841 and living in St Leonards Shoreditch:
Reuben Benjamin WATCHMAKER, bc1811 married to Harriett b c 1816 (surname unknown)
Racheal c 1836 born Quebec age given as 5(married 1857 John W. Clarke)
from 1851
Harriett BENJAMIN listed as married and there is no Reuben Benjamin in the household.
Harriet aged 7
Rebecca aged 2 both born Hackney.
Ellen Benjamin visitor to the household.
Rachel working as a servant. (possible death Hackney 1891 MArch Qtr Rachel Clarke)
1861
Harriett Benjamin widow (cannot find a death for REUBEN BENJAMIN)
with daughter Harriett.
Rebecca aged 12 is in a day school
Ellen aged 14 in the same area.
1870 Harriet Mary Benjamin b c 1844 married Arthur Stonnard
1871 and 1881 Harriet Benjamin with daughter Rebecca
Death for Harriet in Hackney in 1882.
1901 Harriet Mary Stonard aged 56 and Harriet Mary Stonard aged 29
I have been unable to find anything on Reuben Benjamin or the family of Rachel and John Clarke.
Robyn
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Hi All,
Thought I'd update as i've received more certificates to day and i'm also a bit confused!
So I have a marriage cert for Abraham Benjamin
1838 St Botolph without Aldgate, Middlesx
9/12/1838 Abraham Benjamin / of full age / Widower / .... and tea dealer / 27 Rosemary Lane, Aldgate , Father: Elias Benjamin Dead
Birth certificate for Adelaide Benjamin - 1848 Goodmans Field, The Whitechapel Union, County of Mddx
18th May 1848 8 'Mandle?' Street, Whitechapel, Adelaide, Girl, Father: Abraham Benjamin, Mother Louisa formerly Cohen, Occ: Traveller?, A Benjamin Father
Birth Certificate for Benjamin Benjamin - 1848 Goodmans Field (as above)
24/3/1840 Benjamin Abraham, Boy, Father Abraham Benjamin, Mother: Louisa Benjamin formerly Cohen, Occu: Ferrier?, A Benjamin father Little Prescot street, Whitechapl.
I'm a bit confused as I thought the mother Louisa had the last name Joseph but this is perhaps not the same lady?
Any ideas? Your help always welcome! Thanksxx
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So I have a marriage cert for Abraham Benjamin
1838 St Botolph without Aldgate, Middlesx
9/12/1838 Abraham Benjamin / of full age / Widower / .... and tea dealer / 27 Rosemary Lane, Aldgate , Father: Elias Benjamin Dead
Hi
What does the 1838 marriage certificate say about Abraham's bride?
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I have just re-read this thread and can't see where we came to the conclusion that Louisa's surname was Joseph......I do see that Anna mentioned it on 8th April,but why? ;D
Carol
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I have just re-read this thread and can't see where we came to the conclusion that Louisa's surname was Joseph......I do see that Anna mentioned it on 8th April,but why? ;D
Because of the synagogue marriage record found in the post immediately preceding mine (at reply #31).
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Wake up Carol ;D
So she's the Leah Joseph then !
Was she widowed and Abraham was her 2nd hubby?
Hence her maiden name could then be Cohen.
Carol
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So she's the Leah Joseph then !
Was she widowed and Abraham was her 2nd hubby?
Hence her maiden name could then be Cohen.
:D
Hence why I've asked about what the bride's details are on the 1838 marriage cert...
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;D
I think I was reading through quickly and was looking for someone called Louisa ;)
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So she's the Leah Joseph then !
Was she widowed and Abraham was her 2nd hubby?
Hence her maiden name could then be Cohen.
:D
Sorry!
Leah Joseph - of full age - spinster - No profession - No fathers name or surname.... Useful!
Hence why I've asked about what the bride's details are on the 1838 marriage cert...
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Sorry again, not sure what happened there!
Here's the info:
Leah Joseph - of full age - spinster - No profession - No fathers name or surname.... Useful!
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The Abraham Benjamin who in 1841 was a Tailor married to Louisa,doesn't seem to be the same one as the marriage cert , who was tea dealer or a traveller on the birth cert?
Carol