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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: MAZ1900 on Wednesday 30 March 11 14:41 BST (UK)

Title: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: MAZ1900 on Wednesday 30 March 11 14:41 BST (UK)
Hello,

I have just joined Roots Chat!  :)

I was wandering if anyone may be able to assist me-re a Census look up?!

I am doing my Family Tree at the moment and I am working on my Great Grandfathers (James Trainer) side of the tree!

Upon ordering a copy of his Marrage Certificate to my Great Grandmother- I have worked out that he was born in 1892 and that his father was called 'David' (possibly Daniel-its hard to make out with the handwritting on the certificate!).
A Search on "Find My Past" shows x1 James Trainer born in 1892-Chester Le Street, Durham.

I have  done a 1901 census look up on Ancestry for James Trainer, born in 1892-however I am unable to find him as residing with his father David (or Daniel). In fact, I am unable to locate David or Daniel on the 1901 census or any census previous to that!

Before ordering a copy of his Birth Certificate (am finding the ordering of certificates a costly process!)-if anyone has any advice/tips as to where elseI could look-it would be much appreciated!

Kind Regards,

Maz
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: Tati on Wednesday 30 March 11 14:45 BST (UK)
Welcome to RootsChat Maz  :)

I'd hesitate ordering the cert as well. FreeBMD shows a possible death for the Chester Le Street boy in 1893:
Death James Trainer age 1
Sep 1893 Chester Le Street 10a 372

Where and when did James marry? Does it give an occupation for David/Daniel? Can you make out the names of the witnesses on the marriage cert?

 :)
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: groom on Wednesday 30 March 11 14:54 BST (UK)
Hi welcome to Rootschat

There is a Daniel Trainer in 1891

RG 12/4122/92/35 reg Chester le Street
13, Dean Street, Witton Gilbert


Daniel Trainer  43   Coal miner       Scotland
Margaret Trainer 31                       Sherburn
Rose Ann Conoly 13 niece             Scotland

Jan

Added: Not them as they are still there in 1901 but no children with them.
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: MAZ1900 on Wednesday 30 March 11 14:59 BST (UK)
Many Thanks for your reply!  :)

I ordered a copy of his death certificate-he died in Feb 1932, aged 39.
The informant to this was my Great Gran Daisy Catherall-which verified I had the correct person.

James Trainer married my Great Grandmother Daisy Catherall in Nov 1930. He was aged 38 years old. They married in the district of Hackney.

He was born between Oct-Dec 1892 in Chester Le Street, Durham.

The occupation for James Father seems to say he was a 'Baker Journeyman'.

The witnesses for the wedding was a Lily Simpson (who is my Great Grans sister) and an Emily Gee-I am not sure who she was?

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Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: MAZ1900 on Wednesday 30 March 11 15:12 BST (UK)
Thank you for the census look up Jan  :)

I am thinking maybe Daniel/David died after James was born in 1892-and this could be why I can't find him on the census look up?
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: groom on Wednesday 30 March 11 15:31 BST (UK)
Hi

How are you certain of his place of birth? I cant find a James Trainer born Chester le Street on the 1901 census. As Tati said it does look as if the one born in Chester le Street in 1892 died the following year aged 1.

Jan
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: Mort29 on Wednesday 30 March 11 15:33 BST (UK)
Quote
I cant find a James Trainer born Chester le Street on the 1901 census.

Try 'Drainer' in Barnsley ....  1911 has 2, one in Gateshead as well as the Barnsley chap - neither have the requisite father ....

... of course he may not show as James on the census, perhaps it was a middle name?
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: MAZ1900 on Wednesday 30 March 11 15:34 BST (UK)
Hello,

I was only assuming that he was born in 1892 in Chester Le Street-based on his age at time of Marriage and age at time of death.

If the one that was born in 1892 Chester Le Street died at the age of 1 year old- then that would rule this one out!

Come to think of it, maybe my James Trainer was born in another country?

Maz
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: MAZ1900 on Wednesday 30 March 11 15:48 BST (UK)
Apologies for not clarifying that his place of Birth (Chester Le Stree) was just my assumption.

I know that he was born in 1892>based on his age of 38 years old at time of Marriage to my Great Gran in November 1930-Hackney.
And he was 39 years old when he died in February 1932 > which to me suggests that he would have turned 40 years old (had he lived, in 1932).

I can only go on the premise that he must have been born overseas-in light of the fact that there are no English Census records in 1901 showing James Trainer residing with his father David/Daniel.

Thank you for taking the time out to assist me and come to this conclusion- If I had not done this post, I would have ended up wasting £9.50 on a certificate!

My Search continues! I guess I may have to try overseas births?/cesnus records?

Thanks Again,

Maz  :)
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: groom on Wednesday 30 March 11 15:55 BST (UK)
Dont rush to that assumption that he was born overseas. There could be several reasons - as you say his father may have died soon after he was born in which case his mother may have remarried and he is under his step father's name in 1901, he may not have been registered as James, that may have been his middle name or he may have been illegitimate and the information on the marriage certificate was invented. All of these are common.

Jan
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: patrish on Wednesday 30 March 11 15:56 BST (UK)
Hi Maz,

You can never take anything as gospel that you find on any certificate or census, many ages, places of birth or fathers names and occupations have been known to be incorrect.

A well know error was for illegitimate people to falsify a fathers name and occupation on marriages so not to appear so.  I am not saying this is the case with yours but that you need to be aware of it.

I can find  these births

James Trainer Dec q. 1892 Chester Le Street, Durham 10 -524

John James Trainer Sept. q  1892 Morpeth, Northumberland  10b- 578

James Trainer Dec q. 1891 Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland Tyne and Wear 10b - 104.


Also for the other reasons Groom has stated.
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: groom on Wednesday 30 March 11 16:02 BST (UK)
What is James's occupation on his marriage certificate?
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: groom on Wednesday 30 March 11 16:08 BST (UK)
Hi Patrish  ;D ;D ;D

I've only found 5 James Trainers in the country about the right age in the 1901 census

James born 1890  living in Leeds  no father, mother is a widow so a possible

James born 1893 born Chester le Street living in Barnsley father Thomas a general dealer

James born 1894 born Batley father John a Mason's Labourer

James born 1889 Newcastle father Bernard a General Labourer

James born 1892  Newcastle father Peter a  bricklayer

Jan
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: MAZ1900 on Wednesday 30 March 11 16:12 BST (UK)
Cheers Jan for the info! Yes it is good to be mindful of other possibilities also  :)

Thank you also Patrish for the info!  :)

Groom-James occupation on the certificate was a Window Cleaner.

And I forgot to mention that James was living at the address of: 78 Sheep Lane, Hackney-when he married my Great Gran Daisy in 1930.

Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: groom on Wednesday 30 March 11 16:12 BST (UK)
The James born Leeds had a father James who was a labourer in a glue works, so again no Daniel/David.
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: patrish on Wednesday 30 March 11 16:15 BST (UK)
Its also possible that the name has been mis transcribed on the census's

Could be Traynor, Triner Tryner etc  :(
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: Mort29 on Wednesday 30 March 11 16:17 BST (UK)
and Drainer  ;)
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: avm228 on Wednesday 30 March 11 16:19 BST (UK)
Hello Maz and welcome :)

Lots of TRAINER (and variant spellings) families originated in Ireland, so that might be an area to explore if you draw a blank in England.

Are there surviving family memories as to whether he had any particular regional accent?

Anna
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: groom on Wednesday 30 March 11 16:25 BST (UK)
As well as Ireland, there seem to have been a lot of Daniel Trainers from Scotland, so it might be worth trying that as well.

Jan
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: patrish on Wednesday 30 March 11 16:26 BST (UK)
I have tried searching the 1901 for a James,born c 1892  any surname with a father David or Daniel and drawn a blank.  :(

That would indicate to me that either he was illegitimate, his father was deceased at the time of the 1901 census  he was not born a "Trainer" or he was not born or in the UK at the time of the census.  :-\
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: MAZ1900 on Wednesday 30 March 11 16:26 BST (UK)
cheers for the names and dates Jan!
And also for info Mort and Patrish.

Avm-sadly no family memories of James Trainer  :(

Is there a website, apart from 'Find my Past', where I can input an address and  do a census look up for free?

I have James Address at time of Marriage in 1930 as Number 78 Sheep Lane, Hackney.
This was where he was living at the age of 38 years old-maybe I could do a search of family residing at that address in 1901 and 1911? That may shed some more light on it?
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: groom on Wednesday 30 March 11 16:54 BST (UK)
He wasn't there in 1901 and I cant find the address on a later census.

I wonder if he was born in Scotland or Ireland and came to London in the late 1920s looking for work as that was the time of The Great Depression?
Title: Re: Unable to locate my Great Grandad in the 1901 English Census
Post by: MAZ1900 on Wednesday 30 March 11 17:03 BST (UK)
This could be possible!  I will look into this further!  :)

Ta!  :)