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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Michmoor on Tuesday 29 March 11 21:30 BST (UK)
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Hello All,
New to this so please be patient.
Have recently found out a distant relation to my father passed away last year in the Isle of Man :(, have contacted the attorney general at the Isle of Man and have informed me she passed away with no will and no known relations, no children etc. There is a estate which might be substantial, she owned a house which used to be a guest house was big, last visited about 14 years ago.
We need establish a relationship between this lady and my father, we know:
She was my grandmothers half sister but do not know if by blood or marriage.
we know the area which they lived until they moved to the Isle of Man
The name of her husband and of course the relations to my father.
Can anyone suggest the best way to go about to gather evidence of how this lady is related to my father?
Thanks in advance.
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If she was definitely her half-sister, then she would be a blood relation.
If she was her step-sister, that would be by marriage.
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if you have birth certificates of your father and the deceased this will tel you their parents names you then need to find the marriages of the common person
:)
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Michmoor, welcome to Rootschat.
If you have details of the lady who died and post them here maybe someone can help identify her own parents etc.
To link there would need to be some information on your father's familly as well, but please don't post any details on your father if he is still alive. You could always post details of his parents assuming they are no longer alive (any idea if the link was on his father's or mother's side?) and see if anyone can see a connection
p.s. sorry, have just realised your post did say the potential link is your grandmother
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Hi
Maggie have found some details:
The lady full name is Thelma Bridson passed away Isle of Man April 2010 aged 77 or 78.
Her parents were Mabel and Albert Simpson, Mabel passed away either in the late 90's or early 00's, Albert died in a road accident in the Isle of Man in the 1960's.
We believe Mabel's parents were a Joseph Frederick Horrocks (died 5/11/50 aged 70) and Sarah Ann Horrocks (died 5/3/64 aged 85).
The key is establishing the relation to my grandmother Violet Moore nee Stephens who died in 1990 aged 85 or 86, there was some relation to her and Mabel.
Any assistance of how to go forward would be appreciated.
Regards
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Hi I am also new to this and need help! Where do I go to start a new topic, or post a message?
Help
Diane
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You'll have to work back from your father.
There are five Violet Moore deaths in 1990, birth years 1903/04. Which area would it be? Does your father know which area she was born?
(Liverpoolgirl - click on rootschat.com by the green leaf at the top left of the board, under the banner advertisement. Then click on your board, possibly beginners. At the top right hand side of the board you will find start a new topic, click here.)
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She was born in Birmingham, Stourbridge area, how did you find those details so quick?
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She was born in Birmingham, Stourbridge area, how did you find those details so quick?
From ancestry.co.uk death index.
Quick look on freebmd for births 1903 to 1905 for a Violet Stephens isn't bringing up Stourbridge. There may be some discrepancy with dates of birth/death.
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The only birth coming up 1900-1910 in Worcestershire area is
Sept quarter 1904
West Bromwich district, vol 6b page 852
Violet Dorothy Stephens
The quarter doesn't fit with a birth in January, they are registered within six weeks.
What date was your grandmother's birthday?
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July, thanks
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The only marriage I'm finding is in Prestwich
Sept quarter 1924
Prestwich district vol 8d page 581
Violet Stephens and Richard Moore
(Have you got her birthday, the actual date?)
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There's a death of a Violet Moore in July 1990 in the Greater Manchester area, but the birthdate is 14th July 1903.
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Wild shot
Name: Violet Rose Moore
Birth Date: 4 Jul 1909
death: Jul 1992 quarter, registration district Stourbridge, vol 33 page 681
Wrong year of birth and death, right area.
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Pretty sure the marriage to Richard Moore is her, we know for some reason she left Birmingham in her teens for Manchester and met and married Richard Moore (my grandfather) who died in 1961.
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Wild shot
Name: Violet Rose Moore
Birth Date: 4 Jul 1909
death: Jul 1992 quarter, registration district Stourbridge, vol 33 page 681
Wrong year of birth and death, right area.
And can't find a Violet Rose Stephens birth to match
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And I think the 14th July is her, she died in Tameside Hospital 1990
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There's a death of a Violet Moore in July 1990 in the Greater Manchester area, but the birthdate is 14th July 1903.
Could be this one then.
You may have to get her marriage cert.
Unless there's anything else that anyone can remember that could help. It can be a slow process tracing family history :)
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As I understand it you want to establish a link between Mabel and Thelma. I've started the other way around.
Mabel K Horrocks married Albert H Simpson Q.3 of 1931 in Manchester North. Vol 8d, Page 1142.
Having her middle name this looks as if it could be her birth:
Mabel K Horricks b Q4 1911, Prestwich, Lancashire.
Mother's maiden name was Thomas - could Sarah Ann have been Sarah Ann Thomas?
If that's her, then Joseph and Sarah were presumably together, and married, by the 1911 census. See if there are any clues there, because if Violet was a half sister and was in the same household, and was born prior to the 1911 census, she might be listed with them.
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Name: Violet Moore
Birth Date: 14 Jul 1903
Death - Jul quarter 1990 , Tameside registration district, vol 39 page 1511
Trouble is, there's no births of a Violet Stephens coming up in the right area that your think - Stourbridge or area
Births Sep 1903
Stephens Violet Pontardawe 11a 1031
Stephens Violet May Plymouth 5b 252
A July birth would come in the September quarter.
Quarters are March, June, September, December and births are registered within six weeks normally.
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This is realley exciting! ;D
Maggie I need to establish the relation between Violet and Mabel, but it does look like you have found the right people.
My father is sure Thelma is a half/sister or cousin though to be honest I wonder weather they were just good friends and their children just called them auntie/ uncle like you do to your parents friends, but if they were related it would be very useful to know and thats what I realley need to know.
Thanks to everyone for your help.
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As I understand it you want to establish a link between Mabel and Thelma. I've started the other way around.
Mabel K Horrocks married Albert H Simpson Q.3 of 1931 in Manchester North. Vol 8d, Page 1142.
Having her middle name this looks as if it could be her birth:
Mabel K Horricks b Q4 1911, Prestwich, Lancashire.
Mother's maiden name was Thomas - could Sarah Ann have been Sarah Ann Thomas?
If that's her, then Joseph and Sarah were presumably together, and married, by the 1911 census. See if there are any clues there, because if Violet was a half sister and was in the same household, and was born prior to the 1911 census, she might be listed with them.
Isn't it Mabel who's the mother of Thelma, and the link is between Thelma and Violet ???
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my bit
Joseph Fredrick Horrocks married a Sarah Ann Stevens in 1917,
could Voilets surname be spelt Stevens not Stephens .
Eilleen.
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Mabel and Albert is the parents of Thelma, to put it broadly I am trying to establish the relationship, if there is one between Violet Moore nee Stephens who married Richard Moore parents to my father.
We know Violet left Birmingham at a early age, we believe she lived with Joseph and Sarah Anne but whether she was related to them or they took her in is at this stage unknown!
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Its possible it could be Stevens yes, guess we would have to look at birth certificates, my father still thinks he has it.
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Silvery, I admit to being totally confused!
As I understood it, the lady who had died is Thelma, daughter of Mabel Horrocks b around 1911.
The link they want to prove is to Violet, Michmoor's grandmother, born sometime between 1903 and 1909. Hope I've got that right so far.
Violet and Mabel are around the same age, give or take, and Thelma is the next generation down.
Because the 1911 census is the latest we can have a picture of the families I was hoping that something in the Horrocks household would give a link to Violet, because it's possible they were cousins?
The lady full name is Thelma Bridson passed away Isle of Man April 2010 aged 77 or 78.
The key is establishing the relation to my grandmother Violet Moore nee Stephens who died in 1990 aged 85 or 86, there was some relation to her and Mabel.
At the time I thought I was following a logical train of thought around potential cousins - now I think I was just bewildered!
p.s. just saw Eileen's post - if Sarah was Sarah Stevens it would make Violet and Mabel cousins which was what I think I was trying to grope towards (in a rather fuzzy way) earlier
my bit
Joseph Fredrick Horrocks married a Sarah Ann Stevens in 1917,
could Voilets surname be spelt Stevens not Stephens .
Eilleen.
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It was a bit confusing Maggie ! And I hadn't tried Stevens, as Eilleen suggested. I think she has it!
September quarter 1903
Stourbridge 6c 192
STEVENS Violet
the marriage is coming up Stephens though.
Now then, the connection. I think it's going to be too late for us to look in records. It would have to be tracing marriages, poss deaths, and certificates. And Violet and Meabl Thelma are different generations. Violet old enough to be Mabel's Thelma's mother. (Blimey I'm at it now! ;D)
(How do heir hunters do it so quickly?)
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Ouch. I've just thought of something which may not be welcome, so I hope I'm wrong.
If I have the right Mabel K Horrocks, she was the daughter of Joseph Horrocks and a mother whose maiden name was Thomas. Mabel was born in 1911.
Violet Stephens/Stevens was born rather earlier in 1903 - 1909. Let's presume that Violet is the daughter of Sarah Ann Stephens/Stevens.
1917 - Joseph Horrocks, presumably having been widowed, marries Sarah Ann Stevens/Stephens. Violet and Mabel then become step-sisters, which is a different thing to half sisters, as there is no blood tie.
IF (big if) that is correct, one way to check would be to find a death registered for the first Mrs Horrocks at some point between Mabel's 1911 birth and Joseph's second marriage in 1917.
and again very very big IF that is all correct, then unless Joseph formally adopted Violet (and we are talking the early 20th century so not likely) then there may be no legal claim on the estate of Mabel's daughter that can be made by Violet's family.
I do hope someone out there can dispute this logic, as it won't be what Michmoor wants to hear
p.s. 2nd thought, clutching at straws but... what I wrote above is based on the assumptions that Violet was the daughter of Sarah Ann and a Mr Stevens who had died before 1917, and Mabel the daughter of Joseph and a former Miss Thomas who had also died. There's always the hope that Joseph had been spreading his favours and was also the father of Violet - admittedly not likely but it would give the girls a blood link which otherwise doesn't look to exist
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Ive put my two penny worth in :)
I've got a family crisis happening,
my daughter in law has just decided to throw my son out ::) ::)
I've got to go out sort out a living family tree, ::)
Eilleen
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Well, Maggie, I think you might have worked it all out. It certainly sounds reasonably possible.
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Thank you all so far and I think Maggie is close, I have further information, have managed to dig out birth and marriage certificates with proper names and dates.
I have manage locate my grandmothers birth certificate, Violet dated 14th July 1903, District of Trombridge (I think difficult to read) sub district of Kingswinford, the interesting thing is her parents are named as John Thomas Stevens and a Sarah Ann Stevens formerly Thomas, note from comments above.
Anecdotal evidence suggests grandmother Violet came up from Birmingham as a young girl around 1917, we know her father John above had a accident which made him mentally unstable possibly he died and this prompted the move.
Given the evidence kindly provided in the posts and the birth certificate I think my grandmother Violet AND her mother Sarah Ann moved up from Birmingham probably after my great grandfather John died, could do with finding out when he died.
Great Grandmother then met and married Joseph Frederick Horrocks and this marriage resulted in Mabel being born in 1911, this makes Violet my grandmother being Mabel half sister, which my father has said all along! For once seems to have been right!
Violet married my grandfather Richard Moore on September 20 1924, the registrar has spelt the name on the certificate Stephens but my grandmother has signed it Stevens, this has been the source of some confusion in the posts. Is definitely Stevens.
Mabel married Albert Simpson in 1931 and their daughter Thelma was born about 1933 in Manchester. I think this makes my Father and Thelma cousins or half cousins?
To prove this I think we need copy of Mabel's birth certificate and marriage certificate and Sarah Ann marriage, death certificate, would also need John death certificate.
Can anyone point me in the direction of where to obtain these and suggest what else might need?
Thank you all for your help.
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Hi you can look up births, deaths and marriages on Freebmd
http://www.freebmd.org.uk
Once you have the details you can then order the certificates from the General Register Office. http://www.gro.gov.uk
On Freebmd there is this birth
December quarter 1911
Mabel K Horrocks
mother maiden name Thomas
Prestwich 8d 791
Is that her?
Jan
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yes thanks
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Michmoor, I am confused at the entry giving Mabel's mother's name as Thomas in 1911, and the subsequent marriage of Joseph to Sarah Ann Stevens (nee Thomas) in 1917.
If the two Miss Thomas's are one and same, you are right, Mabel and Violet are half sisters and there is a blood link, and I would be very pleased for your family if that could be proved.
If they are not one and the same person, it is quite a co-incidence, and maybe your family story was based on the two Miss Thomas's being sisters, which would then make the girls cousins, and still have a blood link
You're right, you need the certificates to sort all this out, but hopefully you have some solid dates and references to find them with. Good luck with everything, and do come back and let us all know how it turns out.
p.s. to Liverpool Girl,. Diane, if you are still around, I do hope you've found the Home Page and explored the site a bit. Post your questions in Beginners as Silvery advised, and let's hope someone on the board can help you.
Hi I am also new to this and need help! Where do I go to start a new topic, or post a message?
Help
Diane
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If that's right (and it sounds good) then I make them first cousins. Thelma and your father are children of two (half) sisters, related by having the same mother. But the marriage was out of sequence and Sarah Ann and Violet must have moved up before 1911 for Mabel to be born of the same mother. (oR maybe Violet stayed with her father or grandparents)
It's possible you will need all the documentation, certificates etc, to prove the link. Do let us know sometime how you get on. We're always interested in a success story. :)
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You need the General Register Office (GRO)
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
register
page one, fill in the details and say yes, you have the GRO index, which is the name, year, quarter, district, vol, page
page two, delivery details
page three, fill in the red-starred bits only
Certs are £9.25 each.
Come back if you need any more info.
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I'm a little curious about your Richard Moore.Is there an Isle of Man connection with his family?There was one with the Moore that married one of my relatives and who lived in the Earlstown area in 1901.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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You may need this marriage cert to prove it is the same Sarah Ann Thomas, with the same father's name (if any) which will be on the marriage certs.
Marriages Dec 1899
Moore Edward Stourbridge 6c 288
Stevens John Stourbridge 6c 288 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Thomas Phoebe Ann Stourbridge 6c 288
Thomas Sarah Ann Stourbridge 6c 288 <<<<<<<<<<<<<
This looks like them
1901 census RG13/2759/69/10. (in Stourbridge reg dist) can't quite read the address, but it's a 3 roomed dwelling
Edward Moore 28 glass ? maker b
Phoebe Moore 28 b Brockmore
Hannah Thomas 54 mother in law b Brockmore
John Stevens 24 lodger railway lab b Brettell Lane, Staffs
Sarah A Stevens 21 b Brockmore Staffs
and look who the other couple is on the above marriage index. (four to a page)
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One thing occurred to me last night that may place a bit of a spanner in the works, Joseph and Sarah were married in 1917, yet Mabel was born in 1911! Therefore if the Sarah are the same person it means Mabel was born prior to her registered parents being married! I do not know when John died tho a quick search showed someone matching the name and area died in 1910. I still think the two Sarah's are the same, the chances of exactly the same names seems just too much of a coincidence to me!
We know this was a time of turmoil for the family, John worked in the railway and had a severe head injury which made him very ill, we know Violet was in someway injured by John, her father, maybe Sarah sort solace with Joseph because she could not cope with Johns illness and Mabel was the result, and moved to Manchester together to escape the shame and then married when they could. This is just conjecture no real evidence although the is still one elderly relative still alive in Dudley in a nursing home though ill, have been meaning to visit now have a good reason maybe she can recall a few details which could help.
However I have established a blood relation between Thelma and my father which is what I wanted.
Mr Jones you asked about my grandfather Richard Moore, he was a Salford man born and bred, as you can see from the posts there is a Isle of Man connection with another side of family, Horrocks then Simpson then Bridson, it is possible Richard may have had connection which could be how Thelma met Marshall Bridson her husband who was from the Isle of man, I am not sure where Earlstown is, is it in London? If so we know of no connection.
The above has been very helpful and now I think I need to go to the records and thank you to all who contributed and help me on my way, will let you know how it concludes.
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if you have birth certificates of your father and the deceased this will tel you their parents names you then need to find the marriages of the common person
:)
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Thanks,Earlstown is near Widnes in the Prescot District.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Hello All,
Thought I would give you a update as the certificates I ordered have arrived and have come back with some very interesting results.
First of all Mabel's birth certificate states on it as mother "Sarah Ann Horrocks late Stevens formally Thomas" which I think is good evidence that Sarah Ann Stevens and Sarah Ann Horrocks is indeed the same person as I concluded in previous posts. My grandmother Violets birth certificate states mother "Sarah Ann Stevens formerly Thomas" and father John Thomas Stevens again I think with all of your help I now have evidence Violet and Mabel were half sisters and my father and Thelma first cousins by blood!
There is still a gap in the evidence though I could do with finding answers to! On the marriage certificate of the then Sarah Ann to Joseph Horrocks in 1917 she describes herself as a widow. On Mabel's birth certificate who was born in 1911 she describes herself as Sarah Ann Horrocks even though she was not until 1917 and the "late Stevens" both of which indicate John had died by then which you could conclude John had died by that time thus allowing Joseph and Sarah Ann to marry.
However I have done a search to try and find John Stevens on BMD and I think I have found his birth in 1877 or 76 as a John Thomas Stevens which matches Violets birth certificate in Stourbridge but no one matches his death prior to 1917, Sarah Ann and John Stevens were marries in 1899. In the 1901 census they were living together in the same house BUT by the 1911 census it appears he was in the Stourbridge Workhouse and there is a record of a John Stevens dieing in 1927 or 26 aged 51 in Stourbridge, he is the only one which matches the dates and close name that I can find.
I have done a rough search of divorces and can find no evidence of a divorce between Sarah Ann and John Stevens, though I believe finding divorce details is harder than BMD I believe. I have ordered the birth and death certificates of John Stevens and see what information they tell. But at the moment the evidence appears to indicate Sarah Ann ran up to Manchester from Stourbridge after John accident which caused him to be ill and end up been placed in the workhouse had Mabel out of wedlock with Joseph although she was calling herself Mrs Horrocks eventually got married to Joseph in 1917 even though John was still alive, in the workhouse out of site out of mind I suppose then John died alone on the workhouse in 1927! In short Sarah Ann could have been a bigamist!
If anyone has better access to divorce records or can find any other evidence of when John Stevens died be gratefull if you could share it.
Again thanks for all of your help.
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Hello All,
First of all Mabel's birth certificate states on it as mother "Sarah Ann Horrocks late Stevens formally Thomas"
My grandmother Violets birth certificate states mother "Sarah Ann Stevens formerly Thomas" .
Michmoor, I'm glad you've managed to get so much further. Can I clarify the notes above - one says 'formally Thomas' and I'm not sure in what sense the formal bit is meant, it implies that she is known for all legal matters as Sarah Thomas? The other is 'formerly Thomas' which simply means she was known as, or has been, Sarah Thomas in the past. Are the words on the two certificates spelled differently? I know people giving information often make spelling errors (hence second thought) but those actually registering were normally pretty much on the ball.
The other thought is about John Stevens - I imagine you've also searched as Stephens, because if John's death was registered by an official at a hospital, workhouse etc they could easily have given a wrong spelling.
Thanks for letting us know how it's going
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It says on the certificate "Sarah Ann Horrocks late Stevens formerly Thomas"
Which indicates to me her previous husband died and was known before that as Thomas, but if someone disagrees please say so.
Whilst I agree those who wrote these certificates were generally correct mistakes could happen and have evidence here, on my grandmothers certificate the registrar wrote her name as Stephens but she was called Stevens and she signed her name on the certificate as Stevens.
On the information of John Stevens who is recorded as dieing in the workhouse in 1926 or 1927 there is no mention of a middle name of Thomas which is on the BMD information in 1876; however if he did die alone in the workhouse basically abandoned by his family would the person writing the death certificate necessarily know he had a middle name of Thomas? When I get the copies of these certificates it may contain more details such as spouse and parents which will help.
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And your right it is possible it could have been spelt Stephens by mistake I had not checked for that, better had!
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Michmoor, it was the formally/formerly (which was what you posted) that was confusing me. If both certificates spell it formerly then it really does seem as if it has to be the same woman and you've got your proof of relationship between the girls.
Even better, at least you know your father's family stories were based on fact. Good luck with it all
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Okay Everyone I just want to thank everyone for their contributions.
Whilst the family tree is not 100% I think I have enough to demonstrate a good case that my father is the only living relative of Thelma and therefore entitled to the estate.
Am posting all the evidence off tomorrow so we see if the authorities agree! But will let you know the result.
Also interestingly enough have also managed to locate some old photographs of some of the relatives, its interesting to be able to put some names to faces!
Thanks everyone.
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Hello Everyone,
I hope everyone who contributed to the above is still around ;)
I was asked to let you know how it turned out ???
Well thanks to the contributions in the thread it set me on a journey which had its twists and turns and I found out some very interesting family secrets. In the end I went back to 1876, paid a visit to the ancestral home of Stourbridge and a lot of phone calls and requests to the registry within the Isle of Man, the Isle of Man board here was also helpful in plugging a few leaks in the knowledge as well; but the end result was :P
The Isle of Man authorities have accepted my father is the rightful heir to his first cousins estate ;D
So again thank you for your contributions and helping me on the way to a successful conclusion, it has been a hard, sometimes frustrating, rewarding but in the end very worthwhile six months, have learned a lot :D
I think I am going to carry on and investigate the rest of the family tree now :o
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Good news about the inheritance!! ;D It's nice to hear the ending. I'm sure you'll have just as much interest and pleasure in finding out about the rest of the ancestors.
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Michmoor, as Silvery says, really pleased to hear you had a happy ending!
I once described family history as like "playing Sudoku with people". Re-reading your thread I think that bears it out. Good luck with the rest of your tree, it sounds as if you have the bug well and truly now, just like the rest of us, and if (well, 'when' rather than 'if') you hit brick walls, remember there's so much help available here.