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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Surrey => England => Surrey Lookup Requests => Topic started by: iluleah on Monday 28 March 11 13:49 BST (UK)
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I am trying to research a person who was sentenced and spent time at this prison.
I have a copy of the Calender of Prisioners from Kew which I got several years ago, however they informed me they didn't hold the prison records.
I then wrote to Surrey records office as I wanted to find out where the actual prison records are kept and never got a straighforward answer of if they had them or not, just opening times and address to visit ( not possible right now)
I was hoping someone who knew Surrey records system and possibly knew where these records are kept or likely to be kept. I would dearly love a copy of his prison record where hopefully there will also be a photograph of him but I first need to find them
TIA
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I'm not sure if it was you who made a similar enquiry on B-G Forums some time ago but a Google search brought up this answer,
The National Archives have criminal registers covering Woking. See the National Archives catalogue under PCOM 2/141 et seq.
Piece 145 may be the one you're interested in
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...accessmethod=5
The PCOM 2 series has this description: "Registers of prisoners and habitual criminals, photograph albums, minute books, visitors' books, order books, journals, assizes and quarter sessions calendars and other records relating to various prisons in England and Wales, to Gibraltar prison and to some ship prisons"
This research guide explains how to research criminals -
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...sLeafletID=120
If we knew the name & a few dates we might be able to find something about him via another route.
It's quite possible that what you're looking for doesn't exist, if it does I'm sure it would be at Kew rather than at SHC,
Jane
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Hi Jane
His name was William Blay he was convicted at Lincoln Assizes( I have a copy of his crime/plea/sentence which was 7 years) in March 1876 aged 45, he is in Working Invalid prison on the 1881 census....
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I think your best bet is to have a look at TNA site to see what exists (link above)
It seems you have quite a lot of information already :) Have you found him on subsequent censuses he would have been released in 1883?
Jane
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Hi Jane
I have a copy of his calender of prisoner Assizes trail which tells me what he was charged with, what sentence he got in Lincoln, his job, age and the entry in 1881 census which he is named as an inmate in Working as I didn't know where he was sent until then, his married date, name of bride however that is all I have on him, so I am not sure when/if he was released....... I would also like to see his prison record as it was an 'invalid' prison and I wonder why he was sent to an invalid prison as he was a Postmaster prior so it is therefore unlikely he was illiterate or mentally disabled.
I have not seen the 'B-G Forum before and what link to the 'TNA' site?(National Archives?) When I was there before they told me Woking Invalid Prision records were not there, unless they have since acquired them.............
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Sorry both of those links didn't go anywhere :-\
It goes to show you learn something new every day :) I had never heard of Woking Invalid Prison or knew what it's purpose might be but with a little investigation & good 'ole Google, I'm now a little wiser!
Yes, TNA=The National Archives. They seem to have registers that might help you but only for 1876 nothing after that date. Having said that I found this reference, The National Archives references are:
Woking Prison registers of prisoners 1846-89 (PCOM 2/141-151)
(You need to search their catalogue)
Home Office: Convict Hulks, Convict Prisons and Cr... HO 8/207/ Woking Invalid, Surrey . Quarterly returns of prisoners in convict prisons and criminal lunatic asylums: convict prisons and criminal lunatic asylums given at item level Woking Invalid, Surrey
Date: 1876
Source: The Catalogue of The National Archives
There was also this thread on the Sussex page of Rootschat from 2008 which, although it's about Lewes Invalid Prison, it will give you some good background.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,283513.0.html
Also this blog. Worth noting that the prison was also refered to as Knaphill prison.
http://wokingprison.blogspot.com/2009/04/revelation.html
Jane
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I think William might have died in 1888. There's a likely death reg. for a William Blay, Q3 1888, Spilsby, age 58 (7a 307) Strickney comes under Spilsby reg. district.
Ann his wife is widowed by the 1891 census,
Jane
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Hi Jane
Thank you for that, yes it is obvious TNA, my brain goes deeeerrrrrr every now and again. You said you copied the link so although it didn't work I did search again and look....I think there must be something there ( now) unless of course he was sent else where first, in which case if it is only up to 1876so it may be worth me searching the Blacksheep website and see if I can find anything else....this is when we need a census annually ;D
Although I have looked before and found some links to the prison ( information about it) I looked again today and found a great link, ( same as you have given me http://wokingprison.blogspot.com ) and I will have a read of the other one...and this evening I looked and found the death...but wasn't sure it was the 'right' Wm Blay, but with you saying Ann was widowd on the 1891 it looks like it is likely to be the correct one, so thank you for that, every little bit of the jigsaw helps.....I am just hoping I can find his record and there is a photgraph in it....as that may answer many doubts I have had for years.
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Thanks for the links to the other question, when I saw http://www.housesinwoking.com/pages/stjohns.htm and the mention of Inkerman (same place as Woking Invalid Prison) I couldn't believe it... unfortunately the link didn't work, so I reduced it to the basic site (www.housesinwoking.com) and found it is now an estate agent selling 'houses in Woking'..Oh well..................
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Hi
Woking Invalid Convict prison Surrey 1859- 1889 was built for physically and mentally ill convicts. A female convict prison was built alongside in 1869.
From the beginning of the nineteenth century, government prisons were built and run by the prison department of the Home Office. These prisons housed convicts. All prisoners given sentences of transportation (ended finally in 1868) or a period of penal servitude - two years or more hard labour, were called convicts or in reality 'government' prisoners. All other gaoled offenders were prisoners not convicts. By 1853 only 12 prisons across the country were government prisons.
In 1877, the county gaols were brought under government management through the Prison Commission which finally became responsible for all prisons and therefore all prisoners in 1898.
The 1881 census clearly 'labels' William Blay as a convict - it is an important distinction for which archive holds the records, as The National Archives is the repository for government records.
Where prison registers survive and survival rate is very patchy up to 1878 at least The National Archives is more likely to hold the registers for the convict prisons. Under the Public Records Acts 1958 and 1967 the Home Office has a duty to preserve its records of historical and public interest, including those of prisons, which came a little late for the survival of many earlier prison registers. From 1878 onwards where prison registers survive they are more likely to be with county record offices who are also more likely (though TNA does have some) to hold the earlier county prison registers.
The convict system meant that convicts after sentencing were kept in solitary confinement (the separate system) for a minimum of nine months. After this period, they were transferred to other government prisons to be used as labour for public works. Pentonville prison was one of the prisons where convicts were sent to be placed in solitary confinement and TNA does hold some photographs (not all have names) for this prison.
http://www.historyhome.co.uk/peel/laworder/penton.htm
Regards
Valda
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I did search the SHC catalogue for the prison but couldn't find anything, perhaps you could have another go! The dates at TNA were very sporadic & I didn't see any after 1876.
To be honest I find searching TNA catalogue very frustrating, even when I'm at Kew I have to keep running to the 'help' desk ;)
Good luck,
Jane
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Hi Jane
Yes I find the NA information/catalogue difficult to navigate...so I am pleased it isn't just me ??? When I was at Kew they told me they didn't have the prison records for Woking, after I got the copies of the Lincoln Assizes from them.....I will keep looking and hopefully will eventually find something that will help.
I am not even sure where he was sent to at first, as with now learning some more in reading the information about invalid prisons, it seems prisoners were sent to them as they were unfit for hard manuel labour, such as having TB, all I know is that he was in Woking invalid prison in the census in 1881, so he could have been sent anywhere prior or after that date.
I thought I had got something from TNA yeterday putting his name/date in the search on prisoners but the information that came up was sadly not 'my' William Blay'
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Valda
Thank you for that information...I missed reading your post when I answered Jane, that is very useful and informative and I will have a look at the web link you have given
Regards
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Hi
The series of records PCOM2/141-151 in The National Archives catalogue covers Woking prison registers, as already identified by Jane
141 = 1846-1859 (not sure what these registers are as I thought the prison didn't open until 1859 but it was built by prisoners so these may be registers for those prisoners who did the actual building?)
142 = 1859-1861
143 = 1869-1874
144 = 1874-1878
145 = 1878-1884
146 = 1884-1889
147 = prisoners indexes volume 1? undated
148 = prisoners indexes volume 1 indexes
149 = prisoners indexes volume 1 undated
150 = prisoners indexes volume 1 undated
151 = prisoners indexes volume 2 undated
In the 1850/60s there were 12 governement prisons. Once a male convict was sentenced they would be sent first to Wakefield, Leicester, Millbank or Pentonville and kept in solitary confinement but provided with work in their cells such as weaving, tailoring shoemaking. From there they were transferred to another convict prison (though they might be sent to Pentonville first before being sent on) to complete their sentence of hard labour at Chatham, Portland, Portsmouth or for invalid convicts Woking and Dartmoor.
Females went usually first sent to Millbank for up to a year and then to Brixton or Fulham (later Woking female prison). Male juveniles were sent to Parkhurst.
For male convicts there were three separate periods of 'confinement'
Separate confinement (designed to break their spririt and make them compliant) a minimum of 9 months
'Hard' labour - usually public works but better behaved convicts could be employed in baking or cooking for instance
Ticket of leave (prisoner licences) where prisoners did not serve their full sentence in prison. Many prisoners were let out early on licence. These documents are very detailed and later licences (1871 onwards) usually have photographs. Male licences held at The National Archives PCOM3 1853-1887). 770 boxes covering over 45,000 individual prisoner licences, so a date is absolutely essential for a search, though there is an index of sorts in PCOM6 (not sure it covers the period you would be interested in - seems to be a gap after January 1881).
At this time local county prisons (excluding debtors prisons or prisons which also held debtors up to 1869) did not usually hold prisoners for sentences of more than two years. They either executed their prisoners for capital offences or they were there for less serious crimes with sentences of usually months only and not more than two years at most.
Surrey History Centre are less likely to hold records for a convict (government) prison administered and run by the prison commmissioners (and paid for by central taxation) and not a prison (lock up, Bridewell, House of Correction/Detention, County gaol) run by local county officials and paid for by local taxation certainly before the 1880s when the two prison systems began to become more merged and it increasingly becomes more likely any surviving prison registers would be deposited in county record offices (Home Office policy for prison registers specified in the C20th Public Records Acts). The sort of records SHC hold for prisons (and they seem relatively sparse) are for instance for registers of deaths and a surgeon's order book for Horsemonger Lane gaol Newington Southwark (closed in 1878 but then the county gaol).
Wandsworth prison records are held by the London Metropolitan Archives because by the time that prison (opened in 1851) presumably deposited its registers, the metropolitan area of Wandsworth had transfered from Surrey to the County of London.
Regards
Valda
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Valda, you're always such a mine of information! Please tell me how you accessed the piece numbers. I got stuck once I had got to PCOM2 :-\
Jane
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Valda
Thank you for that information, I always thought the 7 years sentence he receieved was harsh however the more I read and understand about the time frame, prison life and conditions...I think he was 'lucky' to have committed his crime or been charged 'after transportation' for his crimes as I am sure they would have transported him had he been charge/sentanced a few years earlier.
I also wondered if The British Postal Museum & Archive. Are likely to have any information about him, I have no experience of records they hold and if they hold records such as investigations they have done. He was a Postmaster and his crime was embezzlement, so I am presuming it was the Post Office who instigated the initial investigation/reported the crime.
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I just wanted to share having done a blanket search on the interent for Stickney and come up with some additional information to investigate further
http://www.stickneyhistory.co.uk/res/Documents/thepostoffices.pdf
and under John Smith : http://www.stickneyhistory.co.uk/res/Documents/stickneypeopletransported.pdf
What a family! Wonder who they belong to?
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Hi Jane
I think it really helps that I also own a copy of David Hawkings book
Criminal Ancestors - A guide to historical records in England and Wales published 1992 (getting a bit old now but still extremely useful)
with some very useful appendices which I tend to check first before searching TNA catalogue and other repositories
Appendix 2 Calendars of prisoners and prison registers and journals in county record offices and other local repositories
Appendix 4 Records in the Public Record Office
Appendix 5 Criminal records held in Police archives for the period up to 1900
Appendix 6 Criminal records currently held by the prison service.
iluleah
I think the best record for following details of William Blay's crime would be the local newspaper. It is more likely the local police investigated the crime once it had been reported. In the C18th his crime of embezzlement would have been a capital offence reduced by the C19th first to transportation then imprisonment. Along with the 7 year sentence he served he would lose his pension and the offence would cast shame on himself but also his family as they lost their place in local society.
Post Office Archives
http://www.postalheritage.org.uk/collections/archive/familyhistory/
Regards
Valda
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Thanks Valda
Just before I looked back at rootschat I sent an email to the website you are suggesting...it makes it so much easier to get a broader picture especially when working alone to 'chat' on here and get good feedback and suggestions, as well as having some great members who know and share their particular areas of research or parts of the Country.
I will do a search on the local Lincolnsire newspapers and see what I can find ( not thought of that one and it is obvious) and maybe add something to the Lincolnshire forum and link it to this thread.
Regards
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Hi
I have come into this chat rather late - I have been working on Woking prison records - using the quarterly returns at Kew. Information is thin and photographs were not taken until after 1872.
The convict I have been tracing was convicted at the Central Criminal Court, having been held at Bow Street and then Newgate. He went to Millbank - but did not stay long, being incapacitated. He went straight from there to Woking and served out the rest of his sentence there.
I too would like to see Woking registers - there ought to be something in addition to the quarterly returns - but they may have perished. Is there really nothing in Woking area?
Have you tried looking at the male licences? This isn't an easy task - it really helps if you know more or less when he was released. A sentence of 14 years = licenced after 10 (if well behaved). You have to do a bit of maths to find the right box at Kew - I was lucky first time! Licences were always issued on the last day of the month and had to be executed during the next month - so there was usually a delay of a week or two before the prisoner was released. Information about the Discharged Prisoners' Aid Society would be good - they were used to get financial support to th discharged prisoners and also worked to find their family and link them up - in an effort to prevent reoffending. I have found nothing relating to Woking yet.
The other place you can look is at Corinne's blog on the prison - put Woking Prison in your search engine. It's very interesting - Corinne lives in one of the old prison officers' houses.
Happy hunting!
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Hi Pandy
Thank you for your input. In a way I am 'pleased' it is not just me having issues getting records on Woking Invalid Prison as it doesn't make me feel so isolated, and I have made a note of the registers should I someday get the chance to go to Kew agan
It was several years ago that I got a copy of Wm Blay's Lincoln Azzises papers from Kew and at that time I asked advice about what other documents they held as I had found he was at Woking from the 1881 census...so did they have prison records or any records which could give me more information and was told no and told they would be held at Surrey records office...maybe I spoke to the wrong person for the advice/support I needed I don't know.
Yes Corrine's blog is great which Jane signposted me to and has given me lots of background information
Wm Blay was sentenced in Mar 1876 for 7 years at Lincoln...from there I have no idea where he was sent, 1881 he is at Woking and by 1888 he died back in Lincolnshire.
I have found lots of other information while looking, such as several years before this his brother married someone who was already married after her husband was transported( don't know if he knew or not) but he died the following year and when she died she was buried using her '1st' husbands name, she spent 2 months doing hard labour prior to her 'second' marriage for 'stealing from the school master' and one of his sisters was 'a bad girl'...still investigating this one....so it seems lots of 'interesting' people in this family..and I have just found out this morning another brother ( I think) paid for the church clock and bell, so slowly I am building the 'flesh on the bones' but would still love to find more about William Blay
Thanks
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Hi Valda, thanks for your reply. You must have a load of books on your shelves as you always come up trumps on all sorts of topics :)
iluleah, it looks as if there's lots of support & interest in the prison so keep digging,
Jane
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Hi
if he left Lincoln in 1876 there should be a record of where he went. If he ended up at Woking he probably went to government run prison from Lincoln. Try to find out his prison number (changes with each prison). 1876 + 3/4 of 7 years brings you to 1876 + 63 months. Sentence start begins on the day of conviction - so you need to start your search soon after the 1881 census. If you know the date of sentencing you can get even closer. It would be worth your while searching the quarterly returns for that period - you would only need to search a few to find him. The details of his offence, sentence, sentencing court, health and behaviour will all be noted there + his Woking number. If he was licenced it will tell you where to and the date. Then you track him down in the male licences and you get a lot more information (if you are lucky!)
I have struggled at Kew myself - the people there try to be helpful, but they are not all reliable and seem to know different things - so it is very much the luck of the draw. Of course, new material keeps coming on line and available - so it's hard to keep up to date.
I hope you find out what you want to know - this roguish ancestors are fun aren't they?!
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Jane and Pandy
First thank you for the support it means a lot and asking daft questions on here has helped me sort out in my own head how, where, what to look for, from the information on copies of the Azzises records I have had for ten years which at that time I tried my best to find more...then got side tracked on other ancestors, then for a long time I have not done any FH...life, house moving, country moving,disaster of losing all my FH ( twice, one computer stolen and another crash...the records are still there because of the size of the file but I can't get them) and having the determination to get it all organised again from my paper files ( thank goodness I kept everything, including those scribbled note books)
With what you have said Pandy he must have been at Lincoln even if it was only for a week or two as the first charge: date of warrant was 10 Feb 1876, recieved into custody 12 Feb 1876, second charge it says Detained, date of warrant 25 Feb 1876 and faced both charges on 17 March 1876.
I have just recieved a wonderful photograph of his headstone back in the village where he was born worked and lived and reminds me when you look at these headstones in peaceful sleepy rural villages which tells you someone died aged 58 years you have no idea of their lives I would attach it however I have no idea how to and clicking the Attach a photograph or image and other options).. below does help me in explaining.......maybe I am being 'slow'.......... William Blay is certainly a challenge and great fun..............
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There is mention of his crime in the Liverpool Mercury, Tuesday March 21 1876.
'At Lincoln Assizes on Saturday, William Blay, postmaster at Stickney, was sentenced to seven years penal servitude for having embezzled 20 pounds, which had been paid to him by a depositor in the P.O. Savings Bank.'
But you probably know all that ;)
Jane
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Wow Jane thankyou...and no I didn't know that..........It must have been a big story for Liverpool to print anything when it happened across the country in Lincolnshire
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More meat for the bones :)
Jane
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The punishment - 7 years - reflects the view of Victorians regarding embezzlement - this was a betrayal of trust which was held every bit as serious as the theft of the money itself. Bear in mind that a clerk's starting salary was not much more than £80 pa and you get a picture of what the crime meant. There was an enormous amount of fraud and embezzlement in the middle of the 19th century. At times anything up to half the clerks in a bank might be away from work, giving evidence in various court cases!
If you keep looking you may find that newspapers all over the place - even in Australia - might have picked up the story.
Sorry to hear you have had such problems losing your research - better luck now.
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Hi Pandy
Yes you are right, I hadn't grasped just how different thinking was back then and after reading Valda's post and the explanation given I did lots of research into Victorian thinking/crime and certainly conditions in prisons at that time, which with todays standards and thinking was barbaric to say the least, yet even the Victorians realised that the treatment they dished out was causing mental instability for 'convicts' from official reports I have read....and to make it worse the £20 was the first charge, his second one was for another £10.....so £30 in total
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Would anyone know how to find out what happened to a prisoner at Woking Invalid Prison if (i) he died there and (ii) he was transferred elsewhere when it closed? I have checked at TNA and in the prison register the prisoner I am interested in was admitted in May 1865 but there is no corresponding official note of how he left (died or transferred). All the other prisoners in the register, so far as I could see, had a note of what happened to them after admission ie at the end of their sentences or transferred if before. Is there a burial register for the prison and if a prisoner died where routinely were they buried?
Second question, was Woking Invalid Prison only for prisoners who were physically disabled in some way or were there connotations of mental incapacity too? Was it akin to a mental asylum for prisoners?
Grateful for any help.
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Close to Woking Invalid Prison was a mental asylum for pauper lunatics whose deceased patients were also buried at Brookwood Cemetery.
http://www.brookwoodcemetery.com/
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Presumably you found the name in the prison quarterly returns. You can also look at Licences - where prisoners had completed their 'tariff' - 3/4 of the their sentence, they were released 'on licence'. Licences contain all the information concerning prison earnings, state of health etc. and detail where prisoners were transferred to and when released.
The licences are available at the NA at Kew.
You will find lots of information about Woking Prison on http://wokingprison.blogspot.co.uk/
The blog has had no new posts for some time, but holds a lot of good information about the buildings, the set up and the prisoners. It certainly suggests that the primary purpose of the prison was to hold mental patients - but whether they were ill before entering the 'separate, silent system' or whether they became so because of it, is for you to decide!
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Thank you - really helpful.
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Hi @CommonSensor, @Pandy is absolutely right, the Quarterly Returns are your best port of call.
Aside from going to the NA, Findmypast has added these to their online resources (however the transcription is a bit shoddy and you have to normally go back a number of pages to find out which prison/quarter is being reported on).
If you're interested, i'm currently working on a research project exploring the history and individual lives of inmates who served time at Woking Convict Invalid Prison.
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Hi,
Just seen your reply to someone about the Woking Invalid Prison. I did a lot of research for a book about one of its inmates and would be happy to share my findings with you. Contact me via ROOTSCHAT with anything you would like me to address.
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I am trying to research a person who was sentenced and spent time at this prison.
I have a copy of the Calender of Prisioners from Kew which I got several years ago, however they informed me they didn't hold the prison records.
I then wrote to Surrey records office as I wanted to find out where the actual prison records are kept and never got a straighforward answer of if they had them or not, just opening times and address to visit ( not possible right now)
I was hoping someone who knew Surrey records system and possibly knew where these records are kept or likely to be kept. I would dearly love a copy of his prison record where hopefully there will also be a photograph of him but I first need to find them
TIA
WOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOO ;D ;D :o :o :o :o FOUND IT!
Thanks to Rootchat someone posted that FindMyPast was not allowing images to be downloaded in the free weekend...I didn't know there was a free weekend... so off to look and found William Blays prison record along with a photo of him, boy does he look like a shifty character....I am thrilled ;D
I have been looking for the best part of 20 years for that particular record...Thank you Rootchat and for several very helpful members who PM'd me with lots of additional information.... now off to read and digest the record I was able to download
So not sure why others can't download or why FindMyPast had told them they had switched off the download option... I just right clicked image and 'save image as'
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Excellent news, iluleah. I found my man's licence in the National Archives - by visiting Kew - the same for the Quarterly Returns. His 'stay' in Woking was too early for a photo, sad to say - so treasure yours! Well done for 20 years of persistence, and for not taking 'no' as an answer!