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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Stirlingshire => Topic started by: MrBluesman on Monday 28 March 11 12:51 BST (UK)
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I wonder if anyone can help, For a long time now I have been struggling to find any records of my Great Grandmother. The 1901 English Census says she was born in Scotland nothing more than that. I have managed to find her in Northeren Ireland in 1890 having a child and 1893 getting married to my Great Grandfather. The English 1911 census says she was born in Falkirk but I have been unable to trace her birth. I have checked Scotlands Records but found nothing and wondered if there were any other records anyone could suggest. Her name was Minnie Magill although her marriage record says Mary and her childrens birth certificates say her maiden name was McGill or Magill depending on which you look at. The Year of birth is around 1870 to 1874 and her father was called John.
Any Advice would help
Andrew
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Hi Andrew
Just adding the link to the previous post www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,426167.0.html
Hard search this one - hopefully someone may find new info for you :)
Monica
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Hi there,
I haven't looked on scotlandspeople but I did see on the Hugh Wallis site that there was only one set of church records which covered Falkirk, Stirlingshire for the period you're researching. Using only the batch number I looked for both Minnie and Mary (with no surname) to see what I could sniff out - but there was nobody with a father named John.
I wondered whether there had been a transcription error by the census enumerator when transcribing from the original house census questionaire to the street list and could it have been Selkirk, Scotland?
MARY MC GILL
Birth: 03 NOV 1872
PLACE: Galashiels, Selkirk, Scotland
Father: JOHN MC GILL
Mother: AGNES DRUMMOND FAIR
Batch No.: C117751
Good luck.
Rena
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I did look at this entry earlier Rena - Mary didn't show with the family on the 1881 census so hard to say isn't it (might be worth checking for deaths to discount her if nothing else). This I think was the family:
John McGill 31 painter b. Troqueer, Kirkcudbrightshire
Agnes D McGill 26 b. Galashiels, Selkirkshire
Maggie McGill 8 b. Melrose, Roxburghshire
Caroline E McGill 6 b. Melrose, Roxburghshire
Christina McGill 4 b. Melrose, Roxburghshire
John McGill 4 Months b. Troqueer, Kirkcudbrightshire
Address: 9 Welldale Terrace, Troqueer Kirkcudbrightshire
Monica
Added: Just checked on SP. Possible death entry for Mary McGill in 1873 in Galashiels.
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Thanks for the details and your time, I had also found this record and being that her first child was called Agnes does tie in well. I'm not good on Scottish Geography and also thought it could have been an error. However the English 1911 census was done filled in by the family much like the 2011 we have just done and it does clearly say Falkirk, Stirlingshire. If I could just find a mothers name it would help, I think I may need a re-think and see if there is anything else from Ireland.
Andrew
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The problem with northern damp churches is that record books suffer damage and some entries aren't legible or have rotted away.
Looking on the bright side. I think there might be a slim chance that the Falkirk church records haven't been digitalised yet. Last year I phoned Edinburgh and Glasgow archives to enquire if one particular set of church records had been published and the clerk referred to a list of unpublished church records for me.
When the Mormans went round churches in the 1980's to film their record books not all parish churches gave their permission. I remember when I started fam.history in 2002 that a few genealogists had already set up scotsorigins (part of britishorigins) and had organised a contract to offer digital images to amateur family historians. Not all church records had been filmed when scotsorigins lost the contract and it was given to scotlandspeople.gov.uk
I've had a look at the Falkirk Town Council's family history page and although it mentions all pre 1855 church record/registers have been transferred to the GRO central archives it doesn't actually say that all later ones have been transferred and it may be worth sending them an email asking if this is the reason you can't find the baptism of your ancestor:-
http://www.falkirk.gov.uk/services/community/library_services/family_history/archives.aspx
If they say all books have been transferred - it may be that the GRO haven't filmed the register yet.
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Have a look at Falkirk Archives:
http://www.falkirk.gov.uk/services/community/cultural_services/museums/archives/finding_aids/churches.aspx
If you click on any Church (and there's plenty of them!), all the documentation held comes up in a pdf file.
If you can't find exactly what you're looking for - I would suggest sending them an e-mail. They're usually very helpful.
Anne :)
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Hi
The Hugh Wallis site and the relevant LDS batches for the period 1855 to 1875 are not church registers, they are the Statutory (Civil) Registers and in theory are 100% of all births and marriages that were registered in Scotland in that period.
It's possible that the birth was registered under a different surname such as her mothers. If her parents were not married then the fathers name would only be on the registration if he was present at registration and signed. It is not unusual for the child to then use their reputed fathers surname from then on.
Also, is it possible that she fibbed about her age and she was born after 1875? If so, unless she was catholic, the only online records are the Statutory Registers on Scotlandspeople.
Andy
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Hi Andy
Thanks for the note, let me see if I am reading this correct,
From the ages I have for Minnie and the years I calculate she was born between 1872 and 1875. I can't find a birth record for a Minnie or Mary Magill in this period in Falkirk. If I understand you right although this is her fathers surname she could have been registered under her mothers surname.
I don't know why I hadn't thought of this previously so many thoughts i'm having now on why.
What I need is her mothers name and another way of finding it.
Regards
Andrew
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I did try going down this route earlier using just the batch code for Falkirk on IGI - C114793 . This lets you use the minimum of information for the search.
Given that the name of Minnie's first daughter was Agnes, that is really all we have so far as a possible clue if she named her daughter after her mother.
Looking at births in Falkirk for a Mary, with a mother Agnes (no father named) brought up only one entry:
Mary Cockburn McDonald born on 14 May 1873 in Falkirk - mother Agnes McDonald.
This is the only birth in Falkirk between 1868-75 for a Mary with a mother Agnes and no named father.
Monica
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Monica
Thanks for the info, I suppose it's a start, what I need to do is see if I can find them in the 1881 census, and Agnes in 1871 and see if that helps any. Some of Minnies childrens name may tie in with other family members, as you said as Agnes was her first she could have named her after mother but other children could have followed that naming process, so perhaps May Silvey, Hugh Campbell, George Munro, Lillian or Fred Lewis may hold a clue?
Thanks Again
Andrew
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Someone suggested up thread that 'there is only one set of church records for Falkirk'. This opens up a whole can of worms :-\
The extant registers of the Church of Scotland were collected centrally in New Register House in 1855 when statutory registration of births, marriages and deaths began. Later baptismal registers were never collected centrally and if they have survived are likely still to be with individual churches. In particular they are not indexed in either Scotland's People or in the International Genealogical Index.
With a surname like McGill, and an Irish connection, there is a possibility that the family were Roman Catholic. The RC records after 1855 are indexed on SP.
I see that Maggie McGill, in the 1881 census in Troqueer, is aged 8, which is exactly the age that Mary, born 16 November 1872, would have been on the date of the 1881 census, and I wonder whether 'Maggie' is a misrecording of 'Mary'? That death record that Monica found may help to answer that, of course.
Did Mary/Minniepersonally write that she was born in Falkirk? If it was her husband, could he have got it wrong?
Looking on the bright side. I think there might be a slim chance that the Falkirk church records haven't been digitalised yet.
I think you can be 100% certain that the post-1855 Falkirk baptism registers have not been digitised yet.
When the Mormans went round churches in the 1980's to film their record books not all parish churches gave their permission.
The Mormons did not go round churches in Scotland. They microfilmed and indexed the pre-1855 registers of the Church of Scotland which had (as described above) been gathered in New Register House, plus the statutory birth and marriage registers from 1855 to 1874/5. This was in effect a 100-year cut-off being operated by GROS in the late 1970s.
I believe that it is true that the RC church refused to allow the Mormons to film and index their records, and I am also under the impression that in England, where many churches still retain all their own registers, some churches also refused. However this was not the case with the pre-1855 Church of Scotland registers.
The flaws in the Mormons' index are to some extent perpetuated in the SP index. There are, for example, sundry omissions from the IGI, and most of there are also missing from the SP index, though SP will eventually correct any omissions to which their attention is drawn. This isn't going to help you find Mary/Minnie McGill, because it applies solely to the pre-1855 C of S registers.
I remember when I started fam.history in 2002 that a few genealogists had already set up scotsorigins (part of britishorigins) and had organised a contract to offer digital images to amateur family historians. Not all church records had been filmed when scotsorigins lost the contract and it was given to scotlandspeople.gov.uk
The contact was not taken away from Scots Origins and given to Scotland's People. Scotland's People is a government agency, and in the early days it was SP who subcontracted Scots Origins to run the online service. Later SP took the service back in house, using Brightsolid for the technical aspects of the service.
I've had a look at the Falkirk Town Council's family history page and although it mentions all pre 1855 church record/registers have been transferred to the GRO central archives it doesn't actually say that all later ones have been transferred and it may be worth sending them an email asking if this is the reason you can't find the baptism of your ancestor
If they say all books have been transferred - it may be that the GRO haven't filmed the register yet.
See above. The post-1855 C of S registers have not been transferred. Some may be in the care of local archives but most are still with the churches.
The GRO is the agency which deals with BMD registration in England and Wales. The corresponding agency in Scotland is the GROS. As far as I know, and I'd be happy to be told I am wrong, there are no plans at present to centralise/film/index/digitise the post 1855 C of S registers. There are, however, plans to index the assorted Free Church registers which are held in the National Archives of Scotland, not by the GROS.
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Forfarian
Not sure if I understand all that there is a lot of info. However the 1911 census was fillied in by Minnie and was signed by her. So either she lied about where she came from, she did come from or she believed thats where she came from.
Regards
Andrew
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Hi Again
After a bit of searching I found a marriage for Agnes Mcdonald to an Alexander Cockburn in the June of 1874. So would guess that this was the father so as yet no connection between the two.
Andrew