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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: ter153 on Sunday 27 March 11 18:45 BST (UK)
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hi folks
my 3x grt gran born as mary fraser 1874 she married john shepherd 1885 , at methlick.entered the aberdeen asylum 1890,she died in said asylum in 1907 under the name of mary MAVER shepherd! where did this name maver come from? i know its the same lady as i have her medical records stating how she died and also a death cert with the same cause of death.have tried to look up her birth cert but there are loads of mary frasers for the time period i want and theyre not shown on scotlands people so dont know which to order!
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Hi ,
Are you sure she was born 1874 ?
If she married 1885 , 11 years old seems a bit young to marry . What age does it say she was on her 1907 death cert ?
Jane
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What are her parents' names and her age when she died? Both these pieces of information are given on the death certificate which you have.
Sometimes a middle name suddenly appears later in life. An example is a very distant relative of mine, James Craik. He was called after his grandfather, James Michie. The entry for his baptism just says James Craik, but he later called himself James Michie Craik. Perhaps your Mary was called after a Mary Maver, but the birth certificate might only say Mary. Another distant relative simply invented a middle name for himself as his wife and all his children had one!
Graham.
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1901 census has her born at Old Meldrum 1865 so I wonder if this is her birth from the IGI.
MARY MAVOR
26 JAN 1865 Old Meldrum, Aberdeen, Scotland
Parents:
Mother: ELIZABETH MAVOR
I'm not readily seeing a marriage for an Elizabeth Mavor to a Mr Fraser though so maybe just coincidence.
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thanks cookies4,i had her birth as around 1863 so it will probably be her? also mothers name is elizabeth maver,william fraser down as dad on her death cert,so looks like william and elizabeth werent married.but he was dead at the time of marys death and elizabeth was married to a john glennie.no much wonder im confused ::) thankyou ;D
btw have just noticed the difference in the spelling of maver mavor! definitely mavER on my certs etc!!
but certainly sounds like the one you found cookies4 were spelling mistakes often made on certs etc? adds to the confusion even more
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Looks like she was brought up by her father and his wife Ann Thow/Show/Shaw. :o
Was her father a farmer?
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on the death cert her father is down as a farm labourer.where did you get the info on who brought her up cookies4? thanks
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" my 3x grt gran born as mary fraser 1874 she married john shepherd 1885 , at methlick.entered the aberdeen asylum 1890,she died in said asylum in 1907 under the name of mary MAVER shepherd! where did this name maver come from? i know its the same lady as i have her medical records stating how she died and also a death cert with the same cause of death.have tried to look up her birth cert but there are loads of mary frasers for the time period i want and theyre not shown on scotlands people so dont know which to order!"
The 1881 census for Methlick shows a Mary Fraser, 16 years old, and a Mary Ann Fraser, 32 years old.
Regards
Malky
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thanks malky ill take a look at the census tomorrow when i can get more credits,
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Hold on,first of all,let's recap on what information you've got.I assume you have a copy of Mary's marriage certificate to John Shepherd? William Fraser (crofter), is down as Mary's reputed father.This proves that William & Elizabeth weren't married to each other! There are only 2 possible births for a Mary Mavor.I have purchased copies of both which turned out to be the same birth.One was registered in Old Meldrum & the other in Ellon. Elizabeth was living at Broomfield, Ellon at that time. It was common for an illegitimate child to be registered under their mother's maiden name & to be brought up under another surname. In instances like this it's always easiest to search for the least common surname first! The 1881 census that Malky spotted is not for your ancestors. I checked out the 1891 & 1901 censuses & there is a patient Mary Ann Shepherd in the Royal Asylum. Her birth date & place of birth doesn't tie in with your Mary though. 1891 = born c1851. 1901= born c1852, Tarves. Don't know where cookies4 info on 1901 census comes from?
flst
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hi flst.thanks very much for that.my mary mavor fraser later married to john shepherd was in aberdeen asylum on and off from 1890-1907,she died there in 1907 she is the same mary you helped me with a few months back.i got stumped with the changing names mary fraser shepherd mary maver shepherd!! went down a couple of wrong routes with this bit of family,her son james later took on the name fraser as a middle name later in life which made me look in the wrong place for him too.so no much wonder im confused.ellon would be correct for mary,discovered she lived at floweryvale dudwicke ellon? thanks for your help much appreciated
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Hold on,first of all,let's recap on what information you've got.I assume you have a copy of Mary's marriage certificate to John Shepherd? William Fraser (crofter), is down as Mary's reputed father.This proves that William & Elizabeth weren't married to each other! There are only 2 possible births for a Mary Mavor.I have purchased copies of both which turned out to be the same birth.One was registered in Old Meldrum & the other in Ellon. Elizabeth was living at Broomfield, Ellon at that time. It was common for an illegitimate child to be registered under their mother's maiden name & to be brought up under another surname. In instances like this it's always easiest to search for the least common surname first! The 1881 census that Malky spotted is not for your ancestors. I checked out the 1891 & 1901 censuses & there is a patient Mary Ann Shepherd in the Royal Asylum. Her birth date & place of birth doesn't tie in with your Mary though. 1891 = born c1851. 1901= born c1852, Tarves. Don't know where cookies4 info on 1901 census comes from?
flst
I got my info from Ancestry -
1901 Aberdeen Royal Lunatic Asylum
Mary Shepherd age 36
Patient
Born Old Meldrum, Aberdeenshire
Age: 36
Is this where your Mary Mavo(e)r Fraser died ter153?
That led me to the 1865 birth of Mary Mavor.
Have you looked at her marriage entry and does it give an address?
I think this could be her with her father at Methlick in 1881. This Mary Fraser is with the same family in 1871.
1881 Inverebrie, Methlick -
William Fraser 54 Farmer born Udny
Ann Fraser 62
Mary Fraser 16 born Old Meldrum
Isabella Fraser 52
Main reason being I can't find a Mary born to this couple in 1865 and wee Mary was not with her mum in 1871 or 1881. Another reason is that Mary married at Methlick.
Regards,
Nel
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Thanks Nel, I can confirm that the address given at the time of marriage was Inverebrie!
flst
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Thanks Nel, I can confirm that the address given at the time of marriage was Inverebrie!
flst
Great stuff!
Ann Thow must have had a big heart!!
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yes Nel.mary died in aberdeen asylum in 1907,she also gave birth to james while there in 1890,turns out he wasnt the husbands child but john shepherd brought the boy up as his own.dont think ill ever find out who is actual father was! poor mary tho,to end up in an asylum and then end her days there very sad.medical records i have for mary stated that mary was '' rather stupid'' i do wonder if mary ever knew her son.
mary did marry john shepherd at methlick july 27th 1885
thanks very much for your help nel,flst
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ter153
Hi
I would take what the records say with a very large pinch of salt.
I have seen admission records for around this time and it may be a case of her husband keeping his reputation clear. In one case I read the woman was classed as a sexual deviant, it turned out nothing more than she was seeking solice with someone other than her husband.
Remember back in this time all it took was a couple of signatures to have someone committed and once in the system there is no way out.
There was a book published in the 1990's the chap in question was sent to borstal for playing truant from school once he reached sixteen the only place they could keep him was a mental hospital I believe from memory he was in his sixties when he was finally released and he had to fight for that. I wish I could remember the name of the book, perhaps someone else can remember.
Yours aye
BruceL
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thanks BruceL,said on her record her sister in law states''that pauper is beyond control and wanders about at night without knowing where she is''further on she says''she wanders very much-was out all night september 3rd and is pregnant to a stranger without knowing something like been in something ward but cant make it out.on one medical cert 1 dr says she is quite stupid another doctor stated refuses to talk,vacant,and expressionless appearance.laughs cant make it out.nice sister in law i think and it really didnt take much to admitsomeone to the asylum.easy way to get rid of someone from the family you dont like i suppose,poor mary just suffered with learning difficulties or something,thank god things have changed now! thanks bruce for your input,it would be quite interesting to read that book
Teresa
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Hi, I'm wondering if John Shepherd applied for poor relief for James? If he did, there's a lot of information you can get off the application form. I know this because my own great grandfather was admitted to the same asylum in 1900 (8 months before his 8th child,my grandfather,was born) His wife had no option but to ask for help. My great grandfather remained in the Royal Asylum until his death in 1917.Such was the stigma about mental health that my grandfather never spoke of his father & it came as a big shock to my mother & her siblings when I uncovered this information!I was fortunate to get copies of his medical records, from the Northern Health Services Archives, as it gave me a greater understanding of his illness which nowadays would've been controlled by medication. I have also read a book, about life in this asylum, although it was a few decades earlier than when my ancestor was there. It gave me an insight into how the conditions were at that time.
flst
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Just remembered the name of the book ; The Christian Watt Papers; Christian Watt was born in 1833 into a Fraserburgh fishing family. Hers was a life of toil and hardship during which she lost all seven of her brothers, two sons and her husband. Strikingly beautiful and intelligent, anxiety and grief eventually led to mental breakdown at the age of forty-seven and Christian spent the rest of her life as a patient in Cornhill Infirmary, Aberdeen. Her treatment there was enlightened and humane: she continued to work and travel and she began to write down recollections of her life. Her remarkable story paints a vivid picture not only of life in the North-east of Scotland during the second half of the late nineteenth century and into the twentieth, but also of major national and international events. Fuelled by a sense of family pride, anger at social injustice, hatred of war and profound religious faith, these memoirs show Christian to have been a woman of immense courage and compassion.
flst
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thankyou flst,
think ill have a look for that book.its very sad to think how easy it was to put someone in an asylum in those days easy to hide an ''embarrassing'' relative away.wouldnt have been much of a life for them then.James had been boarded out to blankets farm then joined up 1n 1911.where will i get the poor relief information from? i too got medical records for mary,very sad that her sil called her the pauper! thanks again flst
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Click on this link to read about the information held by Aberdeen City Archives; http://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/nmsruntime/saveasdialog.asp?lID=22836&sID=9978
You can ask them to do a look up for you if you cannot get to Aberdeen in person. They're very friendly & helpful folk!
flst
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thanks flst ill call them tomorrow and see what i can find out,youve been a great help :))
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Hold on,first of all,let's recap on what information you've got.I assume you have a copy of Mary's marriage certificate to John Shepherd? William Fraser (crofter), is down as Mary's reputed father.This proves that William & Elizabeth weren't married to each other! There are only 2 possible births for a Mary Mavor.I have purchased copies of both which turned out to be the same birth.One was registered in Old Meldrum & the other in Ellon. Elizabeth was living at Broomfield, Ellon at that time. It was common for an illegitimate child to be registered under their mother's maiden name & to be brought up under another surname. In instances like this it's always easiest to search for the least common surname first! The 1881 census that Malky spotted is not for your ancestors. I checked out the 1891 & 1901 censuses & there is a patient Mary Ann Shepherd in the Royal Asylum. Her birth date & place of birth doesn't tie in with your Mary though. 1891 = born c1851. 1901= born c1852, Tarves. Don't know where cookies4 info on 1901 census comes from?
flst
FLST: My Mavors are from Ellon. Elizabeth Ledingham married to John Mavor and lived in Broomfield. I found 4 children (1828 - first born Alexander named after Johns Father and Elizabeth's father, 1834 - Francis, 1839 - John Ledingham, 1849 - Leslie) but not all. It would stand to reason that they had a daughter named Elizabeth, after her mother. The Ledingham name was passed down more generations.
Where would I find their birth certificates and more info of Elizabeth and Johns children? The only info I got was from FamilySearch
Thanks / Dianne
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Hi, there weren't any birth certificates in Scotland till 1855.You could view the Old Parish Records on scotlandspeople website. The familysearch shows the indices of the OPR's ,the actual ones may show the place they were born (as opposed to the parish) & may also give names of godparents,addresses etc. If you read the rootschat notes on using scotlandspeople you will get a better understanding of what information they hold & tips on how to use the site. You may be lucky & find death certificates for Elizabeth & John which should provide their parents names.You can also search for marriage & death certificates of their offspring. Censuses & wills & inventories are also available on this pay to view website.Hope this helps,
flst
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I think this could be her with her father at Methlick in 1881. This Mary Fraser is with the same family in 1871.
1881 Inverebrie, Methlick -
William Fraser 54 Farmer born Udny
Ann Fraser 62
Mary Fraser 16 born Old Meldrum
Isabella Fraser 52
Don't overlook the possibility that Mary is actually the granddaughter of William Fraser and Ann Thow. They had a son James in 1846 who would have been old enough to be Mary's father. It isn't unheard of for illegitimate grandchildren to be brought up as children of the grandparents, and it's quite possible, if Mary was as confused as she seems to have been, that she thought William was her father when he wasn't.
There are only 2 possible births for a Mary Mavor.I have purchased copies of both which turned out to be the same birth.One was registered in Old Meldrum & the other in Ellon. Elizabeth was living at Broomfield, Ellon at that time.
The rules were that a birth had to be registered in the parish where it was born, but if the parents' (or in the case of an illegitimate child the mother's) usual residence was in another parish the Registrar had to forward details to the home Registrar, who then registered the birth in the parents'/mother's home parish. Hence the double entry.
It was common for an illegitimate child to be registered under their mother's maiden name & to be brought up under another surname.
An illegitimate child could be registered under both its mother's and its father's names if, and only if, the father accompanied the mother when she went to register the birth, and signed the birth certificate. So even if the entire parish knew who the father of Elizabeth Mavor's child was, the child could only be registered under its father's name if he too signed the register.
It might be worth a look in the Kirk Session minutes for both Ellon and Old Meldrum, to see if there is any mention of Elizabeth Mavor's pregnancy; if there is it may say who the father was. These were in the National Archives Records of Scotland in Edinburgh, but may now be in the care of Aberdeen City and Aberdeenshire Archives in Aberdeen. They have been digitised and can be viewed at both locations, but they are not yet available online.
have just noticed the difference in the spelling of maver mavor! definitely mavER on my certs etc!! but certainly sounds like the one you found cookies4 were spelling mistakes often made on certs etc?
There is no such thing as a 'spelling mistake' before about 1900, when people began to be more literate, spellings of names became more fixed, and the idea of 'correct' spelling came in. Before that, your name was spelled however the person writing it down thought it should be spelled. So you can't say that 'Mavor' is correct and 'Maver' is incorrect. They are simply alternative spellings of the name, both equally correct.