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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: carna on Sunday 27 March 11 12:58 BST (UK)

Title: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: carna on Sunday 27 March 11 12:58 BST (UK): I have a relative who was supposed to be a doctor. . . but I haven't yet found his qualifications.

Dr Barker Joseph Benson was born in Whitby, England in 1815.

He travelled to NZ in 1841, and was on the Central Coast, NSW by 1842.

I believe he was a Clerk when he left England, and was a storekeeper on the Central Coast in 1842.

By 1848, still on the Central Coast, he performed a post mortem for the coroner.

Can anyone help find out if he was qualified or just a quack?

Thanks heaps,
Carna
Title: Re: Doctor Benson or Quack?
Post by: Aussie1947 on Sunday 27 March 11 13:35 BST (UK): Hi,
Sydney Directory 1875 (Sands)

MEDICAL DIRECTORY.
MEDICAL BOARD OF NEW SOUTH WALES.
LEGALLY QUALIFIED MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS IN SYDNEY AND SUBURBS.

Benson, B. J., Glebe rd.

Regards
Gerry
Title: Re: Doctor Benson or Quack?
Post by: judb on Sunday 27 March 11 13:53 BST (UK): I see a few mentions with that name on TROVE (Have we looked for this before?)

There seem to be three generations of men with the same name however mentions from the 1800s would appear to be the one you are referring to:

1848 - referred to as "Dr Barker Benson" at a meeting near Gosford
1867 - a few mentions in the Insolvency court
1902 - his son's death notice has "Barker Joseph BENSON MD"
1871 - his funeral notice "Barker Joseph BENSON Esq, MD"
1842 - a person mentioning an advertisement supposedly inserted by him - I could not find the ad referred to.

The most interesting, though, is an account in 1849 of 'a Mr, otherwise known as Dr Barker Joseph Benson, a recent importation from the English Sawbones Nursery" to be examined with regard to a debated promissory note. He was committed for trial on embezzlement. This is from Bell’s Life in Sydney and Sporting Reviewer (NSW : 1845-1860) which is seems to be quite forthright in presenting its views in colourful language. :o

There is a second article about the above in which he is called a 'sawbones' and states that he was fond of cribbage which was how the debt arose.

The Sydney Morning Herald has a somewhat more temperate account of the proceedings, in which he is referred to as a surgeon.

I could not see any further mention of an actual trial.

He certainly is referred to often in other, later Family Notices as "Dr" and appears to be a pillar of respectability.

Judith
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Billyblue on Sunday 27 March 11 13:57 BST (UK): Quote from: Aussie1947 on Sunday 27 March 11 13:35 BST (UK)
Hi,
Sydney Directory 1875 (Sands)

MEDICAL DIRECTORY.
MEDICAL BOARD OF NEW SOUTH WALES.
LEGALLY QUALIFIED MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS IN SYDNEY AND SUBURBS.

Benson, B. J., Glebe rd.

Regards
Gerry

Carna
He may have been a Clerk when he left England but was this in a business or a religious cleric who were also referred to as Clerks, I believe.
If he was a qualified doctor, the reason he was not working as such immediately on arrival in NZ and Australia could have been that he was waiting for his credentials to be recognised by the local Medical Board/s. Sometimes this could take years, before the Board was satisfied with the knowledge and certificates / diplomas the people presented. I know of one case in Queensland in the 1860s where it took a German doctor 10 years to convince the Board that he knew what he was doing!

Lists of registered medical practitioners were published regularly in the Government Gazettes, in Australia, usually early in the year.
You may be able to get definitive information from the NSW Medical Board.

Dawn M.
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: judb on Sunday 27 March 11 14:07 BST (UK): I note two refs on NSW records on-line of Insolvency proceedings:

30 May 1842, Barker Joseph BENSON of Brisbane Water, Storekeepers
7 May 1867 Barker Joseph BENSON of Glebe Rd Sydney, Surgeon

http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx

There is another reference to him speaking at a meeting at Brisbane Water in 1848 and he is referred to as 'Dr Benson'. As this is only 6 years after he was trading as a storekeeper it would seem that the locals accepted him as a bona fide doctor. However - this is only speculation.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12908877

Judith
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Aussie1947 on Sunday 27 March 11 14:14 BST (UK): New South Wales Government Gazette 1st June 1842

There was a notice outlining the insolvency of the estate of BARKER JOSEPH BENSON and ABRAHAM PARKINSON , trading under the Firm of " Benson and Parkinson," of Brisbane Water. Storekeepers.

Gerry
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: cando on Sunday 27 March 11 14:23 BST (UK): He is not mentioned on this website

http://www.medicalpioneers.com/about.htm

Cando
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Aussie1947 on Sunday 27 March 11 14:28 BST (UK): In 1884 there was a Dr William Benson in Sydney, wonder if he was related!

Sands Directory 1884.
Benson Dr William, The Hermitage, South Head rd, off Pdtn.

Gerry
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Aussie1947 on Sunday 27 March 11 14:59 BST (UK): 1869 Sands Directory.
Benson Barker J, surgeon, Glebe Rd.

Looks like Barker Joseph Benson died in 1871.

Gerry
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Monday 28 March 11 01:24 BST (UK): Hi there,

I thought we had already established that William Benson was not a quack ...
EDIT TO ADD simply that on the linked thread one of the RChatters had found an instance in the 1880's where an NSW based Dr BENSON had NOT presented to the Colonial Boards the proof that they then required as to his qualifications. You note he was born in 1815 ... so he was quite an old gent in 1884-6 ... perhaps he was simply not willing to reply to Colonial boards that were set up long after he had gained his medical qualifications. (Sorry, I did not realise that those added comments had not come through on this post when I first posted it).

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,513004.15.html

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Monday 28 March 11 02:06 BST (UK): And, I see that at reply #1 Dr B J BENSON was noted as qualified /accredited with the NSW Medical Board ...
That Dr B J Benson of Glebe Road ... I will look up my trusty text for Glebe in that era

BACK SHORTLY

Edit 1 Book : ISBN 9781920831387 "Grandeur & Grit A History of Glebe" Max Solling ... 2007 ...
Noticing BENSON is in the Index

Edit 2 William ANDERSON and Barker BENSON began the first medical practice in Glebe in 1871 .....

Edit 3
Also there's a lad, Bill BENSON and his family are shown in a photograph c 1908 in THIS BOOK ....
And there's a W BENSON shown in another photo in this book c1917.

]Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Monday 28 March 11 08:50 BST (UK): Hi there,

This may be of interest ...

A doctor, Dr BENSON of the 59th Regiment arrived with other RN Doctors from Portsmouth, to Hobart on Tuesday 3 March, 1835; mentions also Mrs Benson and child.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4181345
Friday 6 March 1835 The Hobart Town Courier

This article suggests that Dr Benson as noted above, was a William Benson
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/8649848 Tuesday 14 March 1837 Colonial Times

So it seems there's several Dr Benson chaps in the Antipodes in the 19thC ... I note also that a Dr Benson arrived in Hobart from Sydney on 10 Jan 1835 (so could not be the same chap on that ship from Portsmouth) as per the online index at http://www.archives.tas.gov.au/nameindexes and of course there's Dr Barker J Benson arriving into NZ in 1841 as per

Quote from: carna on Sunday 27 March 11 12:58 BST (UK)
.............Dr Barker Joseph Benson was born in Whitby, England in 1815. He travelled to NZ in 1841, and was on the Central Coast, NSW by 1842. I believe he was a Clerk when he left England, and was a storekeeper on the Central Coast in 1842. By 1848, still on the Central Coast, he performed a post mortem for the coroner.......

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Monday 28 March 11 13:03 BST (UK): More Info ;)
NSW Medical Board ...
4 Jan 1861
List gives an interesting clue as to the purpose of THE LIST
To define persons who have submitted their testimonials of qualification to that board SO THAT the board can then determine those Medical Practitioners who are suitably qualified as Medical Witnesses at Coroners Inquests and Inquiries held before Justices of the Peace in the Colony of NSW ...

I read that to indicate that Medical Practioners who don't want to be witnesses at Coroners Inquests were not required to submit themselves for the Board to confirm or request their medical qualifications

See the NSW Government Gazette Pt 1, pg 42 1861 January.
The Doctor whose name appears on one of the d.c. for one of my forebears who died in 1860 in NSW is NOT on this list. Some years ago I confirmed he was a legit doctor. Now I realise why I have not found him on that list ;) As there is NOT any doctor with the surname BENSON on that list either perhaps neither wanted to be called away to Coroner's Inquests

Dr Benson is NOT on the list for 1870 either, however the heading on that list only says that the list is a List of Medical Practioners prepared in accordance with the Act of Parliament of NSW 2nd Vic No. 22 (this detail was on the 1861 list)

Dr William John ANDERSON ... a Fellow of Royal College of Surgeons, Edinburgh 1848 is on both the 1861 and the 1870 list, so perhaps Dr ANDERSON could rely on Dr BENSON to take care of their patients if he (Dr A) needed to attend to Coroners matters. (Dr Anderson .... I mentioned him re the medical partnership at Glebe with Dr Barker BENSON)

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Aussie1947 on Monday 28 March 11 13:32 BST (UK): In the Sydney Morning Herald Saturday 30 September 1843 on page 1 there was a noticewhich reads.

A CARD--CARCOAR
Dr BENSON, MD., M.R.C.S.L.,
may be consulted at Beau-Desert on
the Coombing Estate, late the residence of
Major Bowler
.

Maybe this is our Dr B J Benson which shows his Qualifications.

Gerry
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Aussie1947 on Monday 28 March 11 14:08 BST (UK): The "Catherine Stewart Forbes" arrived at Port Nicholson NZ on 24th June 1841 after leaving Gravesend England on 5th February 1841.

Cabin passenger, Joseph Benson Barker, 26, no occupation. (booked to return by the same ship)

Steerage passenger, Barker Joesph Benson (no age or occupation)

Were these two listed passengers the same person!

Barker's future wife Hannah Vandervord (17) was also on board.

Regards
Gerry
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: carna on Monday 28 March 11 15:01 BST (UK): Hi all,

Thank again for the replies. Much appreciated.

I believe the Dr Benson that went to Tasmania was a different Dr Benson. Thanks anyway.

The post regarding Dr Barker J Benson in Carcoar, is the right Barker Benson, and the initials after his name might be a clue to his qualifications?

Thanks heaps.
Carna
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Billyblue on Monday 28 March 11 15:16 BST (UK): Quote from: carna on Monday 28 March 11 15:01 BST (UK)
Hi all,
The post regarding Dr Barker J Benson in Carcoar, is the right Barker Benson, and the initials after his name might be a clue to his qualifications? Thanks heaps.
Carna

Yes they might, but they are not regular 'post nominals'
MD is an American usage normally.
If he was a fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons in UK then it would be MRCS. That is the highest membership. He' hardly be old enough to have had that much experience. Usually it is FRCS for Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons. Being UK they deem that they don't need to say that it's London :D :P These days he'd have to be at least 10 years out of Uni to have studied enough to gain his FRCS.

The only likely translation I could think of for MRCSL would be Member of Royal College of Surgeons Louisiana to go with the MD - but I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be such a body in that day and age. Of course I could be wrong.
Can't think of where else the L in the initials could mean.

Dawn M
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Tuesday 29 March 11 00:57 BST (UK): Quote from: Aussie1947 on Monday 28 March 11 13:32 BST (UK)
In the Sydney Morning Herald Saturday 30 September 1843 on page 1 there was a noticewhich reads.

A CARD--CARCOAR
Dr BENSON, MD., M.R.C.S.L.,
may be consulted at Beau-Desert on
the Coombing Estate, late the residence of
Major Bowler
.

Maybe this is our Dr B J Benson which shows his Qualifications.

Gerry

Tis very similar to the one here some six weeks ago http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,513004.0.html at reply #10 with info from SMH Thursday 28th September 1843.

I note that Dr Anderson's qualifications from 1848 are easy to check, and that Dr Anderson and Dr Benson had a practice together in GLEBE ...

Question for Carna Have you considered contacting the author of that book that I cited ... he may well have research information that was not published ....

Cheers JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Tuesday 29 March 11 01:05 BST (UK): So in Sept 1843 there was a Dr BENSON, MD MRCSL at Beau-Desert on the Coombing Estate ... which had previously been occupied by a Major BOWLER .. and that card ... it mentions CARCOAR ...

Back shortly ! Edit 1 Yes, the Cooming Estate is in the NSW electorate of CARCOAR, and not to be confused with Beaudesert in Queensland
Edit2 Dr Barker J BENSON 's wife (Hannah) ... her probate packet has been indexed and it clearly shows the address linking her to him. Probate packets sometimes contain very little family history info BUT usually they have lots ... http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx There is now a photocopying service for the files from that Deceased Estate index.
Edit 3So in May 1842 Barker Joseph BENSON was up at the Brisbane Waters district around Broken Bay NSW, and in Sept 1843 he was over the Great Dividing range around Blayney, Carcoar etc, and I wonder where he was in August 1844 ... His sequestion ended 21 August 1844.
Edit 4And in May 1867 the Surgeon, Barker Joseph BENSON was found to be insolvent, but had cleared the debt by 3 Dec 1867 ...

BUT these are only index references, and to get to the nitty gritty of Carna's question (was he a quack or was he properly qualified) perhaps there is information in those sequestion files ... particularly the 1840's ones ... that indicates his medical standing at that time.

I cannot find how to link Dr BENSON at Carcoar in 1843 with Carna's Barker Joseph BENSON , ... :( Have I missed something ... please help, it is very confused, I can find quite a number of Dr Benson chaps in what was NSW in the 1840s ... I can find others with that surname in NSW in the 1840's

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Tuesday 29 March 11 01:32 BST (UK): Oops, forgot

MRCSL = "Member of Royal College of Surgeons, London".

Cheers, JM

I have placed my comments in red ... you can see my confusion

Quote from: carna on Monday 28 March 11 15:01 BST (UK)
Hi all,

Thank again for the replies. Much appreciated.

I believe the Dr Benson that went to Tasmania was a different Dr Benson. Thanks anyway. There were at least TWO named DR BENSON to VDL in that era, 1835 for them both, one in Jan and one in March

The post regarding Dr Barker J Benson in Carcoar, is the right Barker Benson, and the initials after his name might be a clue to his qualifications? I am confused, which post please shows a Dr Barker J Benson in Carcoar ... I cannot find the post ... sorry ...Thanks heaps.
Carna
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Tuesday 29 March 11 01:58 BST (UK): Looking at the NSW 1854 list for the medical witnesses at NSW Magisteral Inquiries and Coroners Inquests ... none surnamed BENSON but did notice :

The Medical Witness received £1/1/- for appearing in each case plus £2/2/- for each post mortem and 1/- per mile travelling expense.

Coroners received LESS ... £1/-/- for hearing the case and 9d per mile travelling expense ... BUT the Coroner also had an annual salary ...£40/-/-

EDIT TO ADD
As some of my NSW forebears were also receiving salary from NSW govt around this time, the annual fee for the Coroner is very very low for that era ... he would have needed to chair many inquests. I can see why Dr Barker BENSON may have chosen to avoid submitting his own qualifications to the NSW Medical Board, especially if the main financial benefit to each ordinary member of that Association was to become eligible for one guinea after giving perhaps several days evidence at a criminal case, and then having the details of his evidence scrutinised in the court of public opinion via the various views put by newspaper editors...

For example in 1854 an Assistant Surveyor was on £300 per year after only a couple of years service... The Surveyor General was on £1,000 pa plus half pay (from a war service pension v Napoleon in the 1810's) plus forage for his two horses

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Tuesday 29 March 11 02:27 BST (UK): Hi Carna and all watching this site.

Good to see so many posts about Barker's credentials. Guess a defining boundary on him however is that he died Christmas Day 1871 at 57 years of age (Not bad the expected age of death for males at this time was 44). He is noted as a 'Surgeon'. A Dr. Grey was his doctor. It was certified by William Robson and the address is 1 Hope Terrace Glebe Road. He was buried at Balmain cemetery, the bodies there being transferred to Lidcombe when they built the railway.

When we first started looking for relatives his death certificate was all we had so all this discussion is great for our notes.

I have found no evidence to date of how he and Hannah got to Sydney. I feel the post about Carcoar is reasonable as someone previously posted Thomas Barker Chapman's (their first son's) birth there.

As I've put on the other site, we need to keep the family picture in England in view. Thomas his father was a big business man and they were involved in timber and sail building. Maybe Barker went initially to NZ - Fort Nicholson - new settlement to see if the 'Family Timber business' could be started there? From what I've read on Fort Nicholson, many thought it was 'difficult' and it was a long way for the ships to come for timber.

Transferring that to the Aussie situation - it too was difficult and our timber was not good for ships masts etc. Add on to that, the development of the steam engine around this time which altered the need for wood and you can see what helped Barker and Abraham to go bankrupt. Also explains his father's somewhat 'acid' tone (in his will) with Barker's inability to handle money an attitude Thomas inherited from his stepfather Thomas Willis who writes his own son William out of his will for his 'imprudent' ways! Oh and don't forget the contrast with his younger brother William John Chapman Benson who was hugely successful in New Liverpool Quebec, shame he and his wife died so young.

Has anyone seen the articles in Kincumber (East Gosford) where Barker is on the 'Board' of the Episcopalian Church - now the Anglican church. I doubt he would practice without 'the days' credentials - it would be too hyprocritical to be organizing the Bishop to come and then practice without credentials. He was after all great-grandson of a Quaker and grew up with them all around him alah, Barkers, Chapman's Nicholsons who were in London when he was a child.

The picture grows - still want to know if he's related to the Archbishop pf Canterbury - Edward White Benson DD and if this line of Benson's came from Egton (Whitby) in the 1300's (only got possibilities on this one at the moment)

Once again thanks to everyone for your interest - are anymore of you rels?

We've now got Carna, and bark rels, and blynch, and others seem to know so much oh and Tiffany in America from genforum.

Cheers
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Tuesday 29 March 11 02:32 BST (UK): So Barkrelsatthepoint

Do you have any photocopies of any of the records held by NSW State Records Office, and if so please what clues have you noticed .... I mention this to avoid doubling up further with information...

Edit to add reply #10 on this thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,513531.msg3721121.html#msg3721121

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Tuesday 29 March 11 02:40 BST (UK): Sat 22nd Feb. 1851 SMH
A Coroners Inquest - seems that Barker is the Coroner or a doctor reporting?
It's a good read.

As per reply #20 on that thread just quoted ...

Is the reason that Barker is NOT on the various Colonial boards lists contained within that SMH cutting ?

Here's different newspaper
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/60032920
22 February 1851 Empire ...

Here's the link (for other RChatters) for the SMH cutting
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12925037

In both those cuttings, Dr Barker Benson is a MEDICAL WITNESS, he is not the coroner.

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Tuesday 29 March 11 03:42 BST (UK): Hi JM, and others

I only have dates that situate Barker in Brisbane Water, Kincumber, East Gosford what ever it was called. I had not looked for his medical qualifications so all this info is new to me.

The 1843 Carcoar date confuses me. Benson and Parkinson Wharf Brisbane Water is definitely in existence 10th Feb. 1842. Then they go bankrupt. Barker is not happy with Abraham as is Abraham with him in later notices.

William Robson's birth certificate 1845 indicates he is a surgeon. Barker is 30?ish years of age now and the BC is registered in Gosford.

While I think about it he did have a returned paid passage to Gravesend so he wasn't emigrating to NZ or here. Hannah thwarted all that.

14th Sept and (26th Sept 1848 Barker takes chair) S.M.H. and in both cases he is written up as Dr. Benson at a meeting discussing the Bishop of Newcastle's visit to their 'isolated area' (of Brisbane Water).

SMH 5th May 1856 he is part of a deputation to Sydney congratulating J. H. Plunkett on becoming rep of Hunter area.

So any info posted here on official records for his medical quals won't be doubled up on.

And while his reputation still seems to be on the line the embezzlement charge was countermanded with a perjury one against Dr. Harrison which Barker won.

None of the above quals or anything else will remove the seeming reality that he had difficulty handling money - gambler or too generous who knows???

Cheers barkrelsatthepoint
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Tuesday 29 March 11 04:19 BST (UK): Hi there,

There are more Australian newspapers from the 1840's available online at the following link (they are not keyword searchable, you need to read each page of each newspaper) From these you can get a clear picture of the political climate in NSW, including for example some church v state issues, economic downturn, end of convict transportation to NSW, the spread of squatters, exploring the inland, etc. You will of course notice that you need to dedicate quiet time to get through these newspapers, some of which are church based newspapers.
http://www.nla.gov.au/ferg/browselist.html

It would be a good idea to obtain copies the primary records that the indexes at the NSW State Records Office indicate are in their holdings .... I assure you these records can be very informative, for example I have the correspondence file for the land dealings of several of my NSW forebears. It shows the name of the ship that they arrived on, the dates and family members. This vital information is perhaps the only place in the NSW records where the arrival ship's name is mentioned. On another of the NSW SRO indexes I find other forebears, dates of sequestation etc, and yes I can find info about that in the newspapers BUT the information on those sequestration papers is DETAILED and contains their then residential addresses, their full occupation information etc and thus that information is much more accurate, and reliable than the newspaper reports ... (see the two different ways for reporting Baker J's apparent embezzlement ... )

I doubt if I can help further on this thread ... but may I please suggest that the information in the primary records should be consulted (in the UK, in NZ, in Aust and anywhere) and the primary records should have greater reliance placed on it than say a brief index description or the various newspapers and their own apparent editorial bias in their reporters contributions.

Edit to add
http://adbonline.anu.edu.au/biogs/A020556b.htm
the Anglican clergyman who went to all the ísolated'areas in the Northumerland and right up into the upper Hunter and just about everywhere north of the Hawkesbury River Rev WILTON ... He may well have known Dr Benson ... see the planning info re Bishop of Newscastle mentioned in Rev Wilton's adb entry. I leave this for others to follow up.

Many cheers, Good Luck, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Billyblue on Tuesday 29 March 11 04:39 BST (UK): Quote from: majm on Tuesday 29 March 11 01:32 BST (UK)
Oops, forgot

MRCSL = "Member of Royal College of Surgeons, London".

Cheers, JM

JM I don't think that is right. In all my years dealing with the medical profession, transcribing Medical Board minutes etc., the Brits are of the opinion that there is only one Royal Medical College and that it's therefore not necessary to put L at the end because 'everyone' knows it's in London ;D

Also to be a Member of the Royal College is a higher grade than a Fellow and usually only very senior surgeons would have that distinction - in which case they go from being called Doctor to being called Mister (very confusing for the general populace who don't know the finer points!!)

That's why in my post a few before yours, I said I think it might be an American post nominal, if it's 'for real'
Cheers
Dawn M
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Tuesday 29 March 11 04:45 BST (UK): Yes, Dawn, realise the point you are making re the NSW Medical Board in recent past, BUT this thread is about how that qualification would have been noted in the 1840's etc ... so I should probably also note that the various Medical Lists in the NSW Gazettes etc have MD against the surnames of many of those 1860's lists... Sorry for not thinking to mention that in my earlier posts...

Also, my surgeon is a "Mister"and my local GP is a "Doctor" but the receptionist at "Mr"office refers to him as "doctor"... and my Dentist also expects to be given the title "Dr" but my bestest friend with a Doctor of Psychology (DPsych) (Qld Uni) would not ever even know who I was talking to if I addressed them as "Dr Brown" cause to them they are "Mary Smith" (Brown being the sub for surname of spouse, Smith being surname from at least primary school friendship, probably surname on her b.c. but I have never sought to intrude or to prove my own i.d.)

I have exhausted all my known NSW haunts and also my hard paper copy resources re finding hard evidence that Doc Barker was either a quack or not .... I can clearing see that Doc Barker thought of himself as a surgeon and that he did good in the communities in which he lived. He simply chose NOT to be involved with the industry association ie the NSW Medical Board ... the members of that Board were self- regulating and were constituted under the the then terms of the NSW Govt's Act 22 of etc... I don't have any detailed texts for the history of the NSW Medical Board, but I do have lots of texts re NSW in the 19thC

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Billyblue on Tuesday 29 March 11 05:04 BST (UK): Hmm
Some years ago I transcribed the first 15 years of Qld Medical Board minutes for QSA.
I noticed that even then they did not deem it necessary to put L for London against any of their FRCS or MRCS post nominals.
As this was the first 15 years after Q broke away from NSW I would have thought they'd both be pretty similar?
And, granted, they didn't seem to do as many years study then as they do now - I suppose they didn't know so much about a lot of diseases, so there was less to learn :D :P
Dawn M
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Tuesday 29 March 11 05:29 BST (UK): 1870 NSW Medical Board list from NSW Govt Gaz has various post nominals etc
for Isaac AARON (of Sydney) Lic Apoth co Lond 1826 Mbr R Coll Surg Eng 1827

Around 1/3rd of the page I am currently looking at would have MD as their first qualification then perhaps a Scottish (Edin or Glas) qualification. Also noticed MD precedes Univ Gotteningen.

I have previously mentioned that Dr William John ANDERSON who along with Dr Baker Joseph BENSON started the FIRST medical practice in GLEBE and that Dr Anderson's qualifications are noted as Fell. R. Coll Surg. Edin 1848 ...

I can also see other Sydney Doctors whose qualifications are, in the 1860's shown as MRCSE (rather than "L") ... perhaps the E would be England or Edinburgh ... but I cannot see any that are simply MRCS or FRCS or RCS

Exhausterated now ...

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: judb on Tuesday 29 March 11 06:05 BST (UK): Hmm

Time for a bit of a review of BJ Benson - at least to try and get him sorted in my head!

These newspaper mentions appear to place him in Brisbane Water area till 1848 and "of Sydney" by 1849. As I said earlier he is known as DR Benson in Brisbane Water only 6 years after he was a storekeeper so, it seems, there was acceptance of his claim to be a doctor.

1815 Born Whitby

24 June 1841 - ship arriving NZ with two names which could be him: (Could be the same person?)
Cabin passenger, Joseph Benson Barker, 26, no occupation. (booked to return by the same ship)
Steerage passenger, Barker Joseph Benson (no age or occupation)
Also aboard: Barker's future wife Hannah Vandervord (17) .

30 May 1842, Barker Joseph BENSON of Brisbane Water, Storekeepers - insolvency proceedings against him and his partner, Atkinson

Tuesday 26 September 1848 The Sydney Morning Herald - Dr Barker Joseph BENSON chairs a municipal meeting at Brisbane Water.

Saturday 1 December 1849, The Maitland Mercury & Hunter River General Advertiser Perjury charge brought by 'Mr Barker Joseph BENSON, surgeon of Sydney'

Saturday 5 June 1852 The Sydney Morning Herald, Barker J BENSON listed as a 'Collector of Electoral Lists' for Sydney district, Brisbane Ward.

7 May 1867 Barker Joseph BENSON of Glebe Rd Sydney, Surgeon: insolvency proceedings - owing 944 pounds and having assets of only 18pounds

There are a couple of marriage announcements for nieces of his. These marriages took place in Whitby and I wonder why it was felt that they should be put in the Sydney papers.

The Sydney Morning Herald Monday 27 May 1878
Son Thomas Barker Chapman BENSON married at Brewarrina
The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842-1954) (about) <Saturday 26 August 1916
Death mention for a Thomas Barker Chapman BENSON, died age 72, who "was connected with the estates of Dr Tyrell, the late Bishop of Newcastle".

The Sydney Morning Herald Wednesday 14 November 1906
Death of son Joseph James BENSON - our man is listed as Barker Joseph BENSON MD and in same manner in Marriage notice of second son William Robson BENSON 1878

A sad aside: The Brisbane Courier, Tuesday 10 June 1902
Barker BENSON 24 died of bubonic plague in Sydney.
The Sydney Morning Herald Wednesday 11 June 1902
Death notice for a Barker Joseph BENSON aged 25

Sorry to be so long-winded! And we are still no further as to whether he was actually formally qualified. ???

Interestingly though in the other thread

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,513004.15.html

Gerry (Reply #23) has shown that his son William Robson BENSON appears to have been practising without formal approval.

Australasian Medical Directory & Handbook 1886
LIST OF UNREGISTERED PRACTITIONERS.

THE NAMES OF ALL PERSONS KNOWN TO PRACTISE THE MEDICAL
PROFESSION IN THE AUSTRALASIAN COLONIES, WITHOUT BEING
REGISTERED WITH ANY OF THE COLONIAL MEDICAL BOARDS.
(With their addresses, alleged qualifications, and other particulars.)

NEW SOUTH WALES
BENSON, William, Cameron st., Paddington.
Gerry[/i]

Cheers, Judith
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Tuesday 29 March 11 06:06 BST (UK): http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12926500
23 April 1851 SMH

On the 15th instant, at Murrurundi, New South Wales, Charles Henry Hallett, Esq., M.R.C.S., London, aged 26 years, eldest son of John Hallett, Esq., M.R.C.S.L., of Devonport, England — late Demonstrator of Anatomy at the University of Edinburgh.

So the newspaper editors did not have a set protocol as to how to report this accreditation in NSW in the 1850's ...

Edit to add at the trove digitised newspapers online site .... try searching for MD MRCSL .... lots of results, not just Dr Benson ! to me that would be confirming he was NOT a quack, because I assure you SOME of the surnames from those NSW cuttings with MD MRCSL are also found on the NSW Medical Board list released Jan 1861, and some are not ;D ;D HOWEVER I still do not see how the Dr Benson at Carcoar and the Dr Benson on the Chapman birth cert are ONE and the same person ... It is not an easy task to get from Kincumber NSW to Carcoar NSW even today, and it would be VERY difficult in the 1840's ... crossing the Hawkesbury, crossing the Nepean, crossing the Mountains, crossing the Macquarie, crossing the Belubula and all points inbetween...

PS, good summary Judith !

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: judb on Tuesday 29 March 11 07:17 BST (UK): And another snippet; the only child whose birthplace is shown on NSW BMDs index - Willis A BENSON - was registered in Gosford 1860.

I do not think the Carcoar doctor is the same man.

Judith
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: judb on Tuesday 29 March 11 07:42 BST (UK): Another query -

IGI has this baptism - is this the same chap? There is no reason why he could not have been born in Whitby and baptised in Chigwell. This is an extracted entry so is fairly reliable.

Barker Joseph BENSON
Christening:    23 DEC 1815    Chigwell, Essex, England
Father:    THOS BENSON
Mother:    SARAH

The NSW BMD death index (1871) gives his parents as Thomas and Sarah.

I see his parents marriage in Whitby (IGI)

THOMAS BENSON
SARAH BARKER
13 SEP 1810    Whitby, Yorkshire, England

And an apparent sibling for him (same parents):

Ann Barker BENSON
Christening:    20 JUL 1813    Chigwell, Essex, England

Edit to add - I see much of this information was provided earlier by Sue. ;D

Judith
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Tuesday 29 March 11 07:51 BST (UK): Quote from: judb on Tuesday 29 March 11 07:17 BST (UK)
And another snippet; the only child whose birthplace is shown on NSW BMDs index - Willis A BENSON - was registered in Gosford 1860.

I do not think the Carcoar doctor is the same chap.

Judith

I agree with Judith , I note that from the 1840's Kincumber (and it is still there today) and the 1840's Carcoar (still there today) it would be around 275 miles or more to traverse EACH way back in the 1840s ... Kincumber is at sea level, while Mt Boyce is around 3,400 ft above sea level, and Carcoar is around 2400 feet above sea level

Moving house in the 1840's involved organising your own transport, your own tents to sleep in, food and cooking facilities along the way and the wagons, the bullocks, the spare parts for running repairs, the waterproofing materials for crossing the rivers, there was not any golden arches along the way! There were the usual threatening creatures in the bush, as well as the bushrangers and also agitated and displaced members of the various tribes across whose territories these "caravans"were moving ... perhaps at a rate of around ten to 12 miles a day depending on a) the weather, b) the terrain and c) the health of the bullocks .... and that's without considering the comforts of the family being moved...

There's around five weeks journey time ... so it is just not an easy decision to make to go from Kincumber to Carcoar and then return back to Kincumber

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: judb on Tuesday 29 March 11 08:02 BST (UK): When I look back at the ref provided by Gerry in the other thread it says

From the SMH Thursday 28th September 1843.
On page 3 there is a notice.

"A CARD--CARCOAR
Dr, BENSON, M.D,. M.R.C.S.L.,
may be consulted at Beau-Desert, on
the Coombing Estate, late the residence of
Major Bowler."

There is no mention of this chap's initials in this ref - is there another reference?

Judith
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Tuesday 29 March 11 08:49 BST (UK): ;D

Hi Judith, I can tell you lots about Maj. Bowler (there's the odd street or two named in his honor) and I can tell you that Beaudesert was a locality within the Mudgee Police District at that time, and even lots about the Coombing Estate ;)

I have found that advert several times, so far I have NOT found any indication of that Dr's given names .... But there were so many people with the surname BENSON in NSW at that time ....

Hi Everyone, especially the Benson descendants (I am not a descendant),

May I ask a direct question or two or three ... please of the BENSON rellies who are following this thread ...

Q1 Who has transcripts of the various NSW BDM certs for this BENSON line ...,

Q2 what is the information on each of those transcripts (including the NSW BDM Ref nos) and apart from NSW BDM certs,

Q3 who has photocopies of the NSW State Records Office files that are part of this family, what can be gleaned from these ....

I feel sure that the answers are contained within those NSW records, but NOT in the online indexes for those records...

Just for the record I have mentioned previously that NSW Probate Packets are often very good. I mention now that one of my NSW forebears ... well the probate packet took up four packets and nearly 200 A4 pages of photocopying and around 20 A3 pages of photocopying ...

Yes, within that one packet "THERE WERE FOUR PACKAGES ..I was fortunate to be able to get copies of NSW bdm certs for various family members, the will itself, the legal processes, (it was appealed ) the various family members and their addresses etc when they gave witness (including clear signatures) newspaper cuttings of the various notices in the newspaper, the legal title references for the various properties .... including the original grantee's names (a treasure in itself) ...

So instead of worrying about whether Dr BENSON was or was not legally qualified (in the sight of the NSW Medical Board at some stage during his life in NSW) or not, I can see so VERY many more things of interest that family members looking for their own family history can FIND.

For example on an index at the NSW State Records
* Barker Joseph Benson Date of death 25 December 1871, Probate Granted on 13 February 1872
* Hannah Benson Date of death 23 March 1884, Probate Granted on 30 April 1885
* Thomas Barker Joseph Benson - Date of Death 22/02/1936, Probate Granted on 05/08/1936

Cheers, hoping I am not overstepping the mark in being so direct,

JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: carna on Tuesday 29 March 11 10:32 BST (UK): Hi All,
Thank you all so very much for the information that you have all posted.
Each of you has added to the picture and I am extremely grateful.

Carna
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Tuesday 29 March 11 10:39 BST (UK): Hi there,

For further research:
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/archives-in-brief/archives-in-brief-72

NSW Medical Board

NRS 9871, Minutes of proceedings and registers, 1838-1972 *ARK [Fiche only]
Reel 2668, Fiche 840-843, Reels 2656, 2658
The first volume, which covers the years December 1838-February 1901, was used as both a minute book and register for the period December 1838 to February 1854. From February 1854 it was used only as a register of medical practitioners enrolled by the Board. An index to names of medical practitioners, giving page and number, is on Fiche 843.

Remembering of course that in the second year of the Reign of Queen Victoria the NSW Legislative Council was also a very new form of partial self government. The Act is : Act 2nd Victoria, cap. 22 and was clearly established to ensure that Coroners and Medical Witnesses at Coronial Inquiries were legally and lawfully qualified.

EDIT TO ADD that Act of Parliament commenced 31 Dec 1838 ... link http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/Entity.aspx?Path=%5CActivity%5C127

Carna, thank you for your Thank you,

When you have a moment, please do consider responding to my somewhat direct questions.

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Tuesday 29 March 11 11:56 BST (UK): Hi all,
Went to a meeting that wasn't on till tomorrow night - brain must be getting fuzzy.

Thought I'd surf the net for info on Alfred Robson Benson MRCSL who is Barker's first cousin born same year by his Uncle William. There's been some new posts on the net and this little bit of info may shed some info on the British side of things.

Alfred Robson is listed as a passenger on the Harpooner as surgeon and clerk.
When he witnesses the signing of the treaty with the Indians he uses the initials MRCSL after his name.

He was however not admitted to the Royal College of Surgeons until 1848.
see http://www.bmj.com/content/s1-12/10/local/admin.pdf which is a British Medical Association document, - could explain Barker's registration delay (if it even happened).

Also found an ad in 'The Lancet' 1841, from the Dean of the Royal college of Surgeons asking people with Diplomas to register their names for listing in the next year - Barker may have missed all this info as he was on his way here.

Henry Walker Benson a Benson genealogist in late 1800's who's Barker's uncle, when discussing Benson history speaks of the aversion his father (William) being a Quaker had to titles - wonder if this is a family trait???

May not be much help but is food for thought.

Death Certificate Regn No is 1871/001862 for Barker - is this what you want JM? Haven't got any other official doc's.

Just to clarify this is Carna's thread - I'm really only interested in presenting my grandchildren with an idea of those great Benson men and women who make up their past. Nevertheless I've got researching in the blood and degrees for it, so will happily follow what gets posted.

Cheers barkrels
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Tuesday 29 March 11 12:03 BST (UK): Quote from: Barkrelsatthepoint on Tuesday 29 March 11 11:56 BST (UK)
..... Death Certificate Regn No is 1871/001862 for Barker - is this what you want JM? Haven't got any other official doc's.

Hi, I am not a descendant, but I may be able to offer some suggestions if you would be able to transcribe that d.c. ... is it a transcript from an official transcriber or is it the certified copy from NSW BDM Reg Gen's office?

Back shortly with the usual headings on a typical NSW d.c. for that era

Full Name of the Deceased
Date of death
Place of death
Age
Occupation
Cause of death, length of illness, when last seen by the doctor, and the doctor's name and address
Father's name and occupation (and if deceased)
Mother's name (maiden surname) (and if deceased)
Date, and place of marriage/s (AND of course name of the Spouse including often a nee name) and if more than 1 marriage, then each is listed in chronological order, and the children of each marriage listed under their respective family)
Names of children of each marriage, (in chronological order, except any who preceded the deceased these are often just shown as the number of males and the number of females)
Deceased's birthplace
Length of time in the Colonies (so this will often show each of the Colonies and the length in each)
Burial details, including the date of burial, the funeral director, the two official witnesses to the burial and the address of the funeral director
The name and address of the Informant
The Date the death (and burial) were registered, and the NSW BDM Reg General's district that received the lodgement documents.

THERE they are (much more info on NSW certs than UK ones, alas we don't have Census records though)

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: carna on Tuesday 29 March 11 13:56 BST (UK): Thanks again jm,

As yet, unfortunately my answer to all 3 of your questions is no for me.
I have none of the transcripts mentioned, but from the list that you have given, that will be the first job tomorrow morning.

I still haven't processed all of todays information. I didn't expect there to be so much.
But I am so excited at the prospect of now being able to put the story together.
I am especially greatful for the reminders of the times they lived in (the bullocks etc and the starting of the medical registers)

Thanks for helping paint the picture,
Carna
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 30 March 11 03:53 BST (UK): Quote from: carna on Sunday 27 March 11 12:58 BST (UK)
By 1848, still on the Central Coast, he performed a post mortem for the coroner.

The newspaper cutting re that post mortem .. starts at page 2, continues on page 3.
Wednesday 4 October 1848 SMH
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/28648143

.....Barker Joseph Benson, M.D., having been called in and duly sworn, deposed-that at the request of the coroner he had made a post mortem examination of the body ....

I note that this is ten years after the NSW Act of Parliament commenced re qualifying persons. I note that the Coroner requested Dr Benson to conduct the PM. I note that Coroner was a salaried position in the NSW Civil service. I note that the Coroner would thus NOT be seeking a quack to conduct a PM, for that would jepodize the employment of the Coroner.

BUT more than that I note the expert medical evidence that Dr Benson provided to the Coroner's Inquest ...

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 30 March 11 04:12 BST (UK): Re Storekeeper in 1842 as per

Quote from: carna on Sunday 27 March 11 12:58 BST (UK)
was a storekeeper on the Central Coast in 1842.

I think he was also DOCTORING in 1842

19 December 1842 SMH
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12427150 Dr BENSON, late of Brisbane Waters, and recently had stayed at the Royal Oak ...

Trove is a great resource !

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: carna on Wednesday 30 March 11 05:09 BST (UK): Hi, JM,

I mustn't have hit the POST button when I thanked you personally yesterday. Sorry.

I want to thank you for all the effort you are putting into this thread.
I really appreciate it as I am only new to family history (just over 3 months) and alot of my information so far has come from kind people on RootsChat ,like yourself.

Your post including the questions, was not seen as overstepping the mark, but instead it was extremely helpful to me. I am still learning where to go to find the info, and didn't know about state records. THANK YOU.

Trove is one resource I did know about, but hadn't seen the article Dec 1842.

Thanks again,
Carna

P.S. Thanks heaps to all replies. From all the info provided I can only assume that he was qualified, probably in England before he came here and that is possibly why he wasn't registered.

All help was useful and greatly appreciated,
Carna
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 30 March 11 05:30 BST (UK): Family History researching is perhaps the best addiction to acquire. My Gran had it. She made sure I developed it errr around six decades ago. That of course was long before cyberspace and it was also long before Public Records were easily accessed by private persons. You will enjoy family history but do try to find the PRIMARY docs .....spend the pennies wisely on those. Cheers JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Saturday 02 April 11 13:08 BST (UK): Hi all,

Guess the thing about researching is that wriggly questions stay with you and you find interesting sites as a result. Whilst this site might be known to others I haven't come across it before and it does seem to put Australian medicine in the early colonial period into some perspective even if it doesn't shed anymore specific light on BJB himself. It can be found at;

http://www.medicalpioneers.com/colonial.htm

Also I'm working on trying to transcribe Thomas Barker's father will. There is a definite reduction of Barker's inheritance to One pound five shillings I think weekly (very hard to read) because his father feels he has given him plenty of money already (and he adds his other sons into this a bit later as they become more well-off) and he feels Barker has not spent the money wisely. The codicil this is contained in ironically is dated 1842 when Barker goes bankrupt for the first time. Poor Barker must have felt pretty low at this time of his life!!!!!

Cheers barkrels
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: carna on Saturday 02 April 11 21:06 BST (UK): Hi Angela,

Great website for understanding early medicine!

If you are having trouble transcribing the will, did you realise there is a board on Rootschat that can help with that.
It is near the beginning of the list, but is restricted by copyright.

Apparently you can post parts of the will for help transcribing, just not all of it.

This might be useful for any parts of the will that you are having trouble with.

Cheers,
Carna
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Sunday 03 April 11 04:40 BST (UK): Quote from: cando on Sunday 27 March 11 14:23 BST (UK)
He is not mentioned on this website

http://www.medicalpioneers.com/about.htm

Cando
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Sunday 03 April 11 10:04 BST (UK): Hi Carna, and Majm,

Thanks for the hint Karen, but I'm becoming more au fait with the wording in the will every time I look at it and I think I'll be able to transcribe it eventually. It's a challenge and I'm up to it. As with all wills it's meant for the inheritors and executors to understand and it does not shed any light on 'history' that we all don't know already as far as I can see. It's awfully long with four codicils so it will take some time.

As for JM, I did say the site wouldn't shed any light on Barker. I feel it's just good to get a general picture of what is going on in specific time periods of history. I'm a migrant and do not have the advantage of doing Australian history at school so I find I need to read general sites to put myself in the general picture. I just thought others might be in the same boat as me.

Looking back over the posts it is good that so much has been written on Barker Joseph whom I have to admit I've grown rather fond of. I have some empathy with him in the sense of coming half way around the world to an unknown place and having to 'grow up' here (At least the ship I came on didn't take six months and was sanitary etc).

His medical 'degree' is a conundrum (spelling?) that will probably never be solved but it's always fun to hope that you might stumble on something one day and because we're pensioners I guess we would only spend money on a 'certain' (as we already have with the wills) not a 'hunch' as we can't afford to throw money away. Your comment on 'the facts' has been noted.

Thanks again to everyone who has put posts on this site, it's great to see so much discussion.

Barkrels - cheers
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: carna on Sunday 03 April 11 12:09 BST (UK): Dear all,

Thanks for all the posts trying to answer doctor or quack?

Today I visited Henry Kendall Cottage in Gosford, where Barker practiced as a doctor.
(Henry Kendall was a well known Australian poet and was married to Charlotte Rutter, sister to one of Barker's daughter-in-laws.)

There is a historical museum there but nothing about Barker.
There were plenty of local historical books, of which one (Gosford and the Kendal Country, by Charles Swancott) mentions that there are 2x surgeons and 1x doctor in the area in1854, Joseph Benson Barker being the Surgeon at East Gosford. (note the mixed up name)

With all the posts on this board and this also being confirmed in this book by and respected local historian, I am going to believe that Barker was a surgeon.

The search will go on to find the proof of his qualifications but for now this is where I'm at.

I thank all of you for your help and I appreciate all the pieces of the puzzle that you have provided so far. I only hope that some day I can repay the kindness.

Carna
P.S. JM, Thanks for everything, especially for keeping me true.
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: carna on Wednesday 13 April 11 12:22 BST (UK): Hi all,

While visiting Gosford library and searching the local history books, I came across possibly new information . . . . . .

Apparently Barker Joseph Benson was a surgeon and apothecary in England in 1838.
I know regulations for apothecaries changed in 1815 and for surgeons in 1845.
Barker sailed to NZ and Australia in 1841, so may not have registered.

Can anyone tell me where to search to try to prove this?
Is there a list of practising apothecaries from around this time?

Thanks,
Carna
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Billyblue on Wednesday 13 April 11 13:11 BST (UK): So Carna
Have you contacted the Royal College of Surgeons in London?
Or the NSW Medical Board?

They would be the most likely places to provide any proof.
The NSWMB might even show which Uni / College he got his degree from, and you could then contact that establishment for further proof if you needed it. Though if the NSWMB accepted his piece of paper from 'wherever' then that surely is enough - they were very thorough in those days about inspecting everything! I know in Queensland in the 1860s they wouldn't even look at registering anyone unless they fronted up to the members of the Board, in person, even if it meant coming down from Townsville or Cooktown, which would be no mean feat in those days, not like now when you can hop on a plane and be in Brisbane in an hour or so.

Dawn M
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 13 April 11 13:16 BST (UK): Hi Carna,

Have you contacted the NSW State Records Office to see what was in the minutes book covering 1838 to 1854 that I mentioned at reply #38

Cheers, JM

PS I have just posted on your other current thread,
Re: Looking for Barker Joseph BENSON, born Whitby 1815?

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=513531.new
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 13 April 11 13:46 BST (UK): As an aside, Various elder members of (Thomas) Henry Kendall's family travelled on the ship Elizabeth arriving in Sydney 7 April 1827. From memory, Henry Kendall's father, Basil Kendall was born in Chile.

I mention these things to indicate that even in the era of sailing ships, many families travelled to remote locations along with their families ... It may well be that Dr Benson travelled Europe, the Americas and other "exotic" destinations before arriving in the antipodes.

I do firmly believe that he was suitably qualified and accepted by his peers when practicing in NSW .... There is no way a Coroner appointed to the civil service on an annual salary would ask an unqualified person to perform an autopsy on a body once that 1838 Act had established the process for Post Mortems. And the evidence he gave is definitely indicating good medical understanding and the court respected his evidence. That it seems he declined further appointments for P.M. type work has been explained on the other thread .... his possible Quaker associations .... these would not necessarily have hindered his Anglicanism, but would certainly have inhibited his seeking membership of associations such as the colonial NSW Medical Board...

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: carna on Wednesday 13 April 11 14:16 BST (UK): Thanks Dawn,

I will try the NSWMB first and then the Royal College of Surgeons London there after.

Thanks again JM,

Booked for next Wed to go down to State Records to look at Barker's probate. Will also ask to look at the minutes book mentioned at reply#38.

Having now looked at the history of the medical personel of the time, I do believe he was qualified, as in England at this time, you had to be qualified to be an apothecary(after 1815).

Probably put this reply on the wrong board as I was hopefull that there might be a list of apothecaries in England around 1830's. Probably should have put it on the England board!

I can't believe that so many people travelled across the world with their families in ships like the Endeavour, sometimes backwards and forwards, it doesn't sound safe.
I am enjoying learning about life in those days and I cannot believe how different it is today.

Thanks again for your replies,
Carna
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 13 April 11 14:27 BST (UK): As a tip, contact NSW SRO at Kingswood and pre-order up to four files to be ready when you arrive .... otherwise you could wait around for up to an hour or more while they fetch the files to the front counter .... Return each file as you finish with it (and don't have more than one file OPEN at a time, perhaps ask them to hold three at the counter, take the oldest one first)... Also be prepared to wear the supplied white cotton lint free gloves to help protect these old files. Oh, and take your own packed lunch, and I think its $2 gold coin for locker (refundable on exiting) .... Pencil, paper, pencil eraser, and put date and page no. on each sheet of notes that you take, and the NSWSRO file reference too ... (easy to then go back through notes) ....

Enjoy ! You will be company with lots of others who enjoy going through old archive files, so soak up the quiet contented atmosphere ... Some will be doing thesis studies, others will be researching other topics, not everyone will be into family history ...

There's also various reference books and there's always the reels of film and the readers are good machines .... you can get to photocopy various film entries directly.
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: carna on Wednesday 13 April 11 14:53 BST (UK): JM,
I wouldn't have thought of half of that.

I am grateful of all the tips that you have given me on researching and on keeping the records. At least I am getting my records straight from the beginning.
You are just like a fairy godmother.

Much appreciated,
Carna
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: SimoneAllaston on Sunday 08 April 12 10:52 BST (UK): Hello,

Not sure if anyone is still checking these threads... I have copies of Barkers journals from his many voyages. It seems thru family stories of ours that Barker was a regular trouble maker and shipped off regularly around the world to get him out of the way. He always travelled as a gentlemen and never listed any occupation. I think he wasn't meant to get off in NZ, he had a return ticket. Met Hannah, a young seamstress on the journey and they married as soon as they docked. I have his fathers will and he definitely was in money troubles a few times and the will was amended after each loan dad dished out.

I've never been able to find proof of his qualifications, but there is tons of references to him working as a doctor. Rev. Alfred Glennies journals from Kincumber area talk about daily life and mention Barker and Mrs Benson, they seem to have been close dining and visiting often.

I have only seen reference to him being an apothecary in England... his journals don't mention any occupational related stuff but maybe he got his credentials overseas? Ill scan back thru them.....

Simone
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Monday 09 April 12 02:49 BST (UK): Hi there Simone,

Welcome to RChat.

I see you have now made three posts, so you should be able to send private messages to any RChat member, simply by clicking on the scroll under their avatar. I see you have posted on the Benson thread on the Yorkshire board, but there is at least one other thread for Barker Joseph Benson, and it is on the Australia Board. Perhaps there’s info there that may be of interest too. Perhaps the family members may be on vacations during this Easter break?

Here’s links to both those threads:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,513531.0.html (Yorkshire)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,513004.0.html (Australia)

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Monday 09 April 12 04:32 BST (UK): Hi there,

I may be duplicating info given previously, perhaps on this or the other linked threads but:

From the Historic Records section of the Family Search website, there are possibly TWO Barker Joseph BENSON lads in the 1810s in England (neither are for Yorkshire though). https://www.familysearch.org I noticed that the following entries at that website have been accessed on 9 April 2012, ie earlier today....

Barker Joseph BENSON, baptism 14 July 1818 at Stepney, Middlesex, and he was son of Thomas and Sarah BENSON
AND
Barker Joseph BENSON, baptism 23 December 1815 at Chigwell, Essex and he was son of Thos and Sarah BENSON.

Thomas Barker Chapman BENSON was born 16 March 1844 and was baptised 2 April 1844 at St James, Sydney (NSW) and was the son of Barker Joseph and Hannah Emily BENSON. St James website: http://www.sjks.org.au

William Robson BENSON born 29 June 1845, was baptised 9 September 1845 at Gosford (NSW) and was the son of Barker Joseph and Hannah Emily BENSON

John Hovendon BENSON, born 13 March 1849 was baptised 1 October 1849 at St Lawrence, Sydney, (NSW) and was the son of Barker Joseph and Hannah Emily BENSON. (Christ Church St Laurence has an Archivist see their website: http://www.ccsl.org.au

James Joseph BENSON was born 11 March 1852 and was baptised 10 Feb 1856 at St James, Sydney (NSW) and he was the son of Barker Joseph and Hannah Elizabeth BENSON.

May I ask a question please ...

Has there been any consideration to contact the Sydney Diocese of the C of E to seek access to information in their archives (St James and Christ Church St Laurence are both in that Diocese).

http://www.archives.anglican.asn.au/index.php/news
and there's a seven page pdf file (An Information Document for the Public & Prospective Researchers about THE SYDNEY DIOCESAN ARCHIVES)

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: SimoneAllaston on Tuesday 10 April 12 04:30 BST (UK): Thanks JM

I'll check the other threads out.
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: SimoneAllaston on Tuesday 10 April 12 22:28 BST (UK): I think we have all over looked the most obvious..... Barker was an apothecary in London and I have seen in my notes the address of where he worked. If you look up the definition of an apothecary in the 18th century:

Apothecary is a historical name for a medical professional who formulates and dispenses materia medica to physicians, surgeons and patients — a role now served by a pharmacist (or a chemist or dispensing chemist) and some caregivers.
In addition to pharmacy responsibilities, the apothecary offered general medical advice and a range of services that are now performed solely by other specialist practitioners, such as surgery and midwifery. Apothecaries often operated through a retail shop which, in addition to ingredients for medicines, sold tobacco and patent medicines.

This makes sense.. stories of midwifery... working as a storekeeper.... suddenly a doctor.
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 11 April 12 01:38 BST (UK): Hi there Simone,

I am confused by your post :

Quote from: SimoneAllaston on Tuesday 10 April 12 22:28 BST (UK)
I think we have all over looked the most obvious..... Barker was an apothecary in London and I have seen in my notes the address of where he worked. If you look up the definition of an apothecary in the 18th century:

Apothecary is a historical name for a medical professional who formulates and dispenses materia medica to physicians, surgeons and patients — a role now served by a pharmacist (or a chemist or dispensing chemist) and some caregivers.
In addition to pharmacy responsibilities, the apothecary offered general medical advice and a range of services that are now performed solely by other specialist practitioners, such as surgery and midwifery. Apothecaries often operated through a retail shop which, in addition to ingredients for medicines, sold tobacco and patent medicines.

This makes sense.. stories of midwifery... working as a storekeeper.... suddenly a doctor.

There was a discussion about his status earlier on this and other threads.... eg

Quote from: majm on Monday 28 March 11 01:24 BST (UK)
Hi there,

I thought we had already established that William Benson was not a quack ...
EDIT TO ADD simply that on the linked thread one of the RChatters had found an instance in the 1880's where an NSW based Dr BENSON had NOT presented to the Colonial Boards the proof that they then required as to his qualifications. You note he was born in 1815 ... so he was quite an old gent in 1884-6 ... perhaps he was simply not willing to reply to Colonial boards that were set up long after he had gained his medical qualifications. (Sorry, I did not realise that those added comments had not come through on this post when I first posted it).

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,513004.15.html

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 11 April 12 01:54 BST (UK): http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12425681 SMH 28 Sept 1843
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12426562 SMH 30 Sept 1843.

Perhaps Dr Benson delivered his son Thomas Barker Chapman BENSON at Carcoar and then within a fortnight of the birth of that son drove horse and carriage to St James C of E, King St Sydney with the baby and the baby's mum for that child's baptism .... from Carcoar to Bathurst and then to tackle the journey on from there to Sydney with a new baby and a wife recovering from that birth, during those early colonial times.... that's around 160 miles through difficult terrain over tracks and up the escarpment, across the Blue Mountains and then down again before the then arduous journey to Sydney Town .... so it was not a step in the park so to write.... and would have taken more than a week... The baby was born 16 Mar 1844 and baptised 2 April 1844, I am surprised that this baptism was 2 April, ie during LENT, as Easter was 7 April 1844. Perhaps the infant was sickly and they fetched him to Sydney for further medical attention.

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 11 April 12 02:35 BST (UK): I am not sure that it has been confirmed that the Dr Benson at Carcoar was actually Barker Joseph BENSON, but from the NSW SRO indexes there were obviously several chaps surnamed BENSON in the then colony of NSW, including PAUL BENSON in 1841 in the Petersham district.

Incidentially, there is a probate packet at the NSW SRO for Thomas B C BENSON, of Goodooga dd 23 July 1916, probate granted 10 Jan 1917. I think there's an option to purchase photocopy of that file and I know that alternatively the archives are available on site at Kingswood, NSW. I notice that that index has various spellings for William Allaston BENSON :)

http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/

EDIT TO NOTE .... Re Dr Benson at Carcoar, please see next post, as Thomas BC Benson's baptismal record (held by Barkelsatthepoint) shows his parents resided at Carcoar.... perhaps Hannah came to Sydney for her confinement....

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 11 April 12 03:17 BST (UK): Hi Simone,

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,513531.50.html (Yorkshire North Riding)

At reply # 3 WolfieSmith has a copy of the will of Thomas Benson Esq dated 1838, Probated Aug 1849, and the will of Sarah, dated 1850, Probated 3 June 1851 and other research too.

At reply # 7 blynch2 has Thomas Barker Chapman BENSON as b 1844 at Carcoar....

At reply #9 Carna mentions that Willis Allatson BENSON born 1860 is great great grandfather and his son Jack is the connection.

At reply # 55, Barkrelsatthepoint mentions “We called in at Carcoar on our trip ..... I left my details for the Historical Society there. A lady ...... has responded and says she has no record of Dr Barker Joseph Benson but has some information on him......”

At reply # 92, Barkrelsatthepoint has the details from the BAPTISMAL records for Thomas Barker Chapman BENSON’s birth and baptism. (Civil registrations did not commence until 1856 in NSW).

“That said we sent away for Thomas Barker Chapman's Birth Certificate and received a copy of his Baptism Certificate. It has some interesting info on it.

Baptised 2/4/1844 at Parish of St James, Sydney performed by Chas C. Kemp Barker and Hannah's abode is recorded as Carcoar and Barker's profession is M.D. Major John Bowler was the Police Commissioner in Carcoar in 1839 -? Also retired in the district and buried at Kelso, Bathurst.”

I understand that that record would be the one held by the NSW BDM and indexed online as Volume 28, line 354 of 1844, Thomas BC Benson, father as Barker J and mother as Hannah E.

Do you have a copy of the civil registration of the birth of Willis A BENSON, registered Gosford District and NSW BDM ref 6852? May I please ask for Barker’s occupation listed on that record.

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 11 April 12 03:34 BST (UK): I forgot to mention that Rev Charles KEMP who baptised Thomas B C Benson was most likely related to Hannah, sorry

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 11 April 12 04:02 BST (UK): Hi there,

With a given name of Barker, there is every chance that the following chap was a related ...
Barker Robert BENSON was a Private in D Squadron, Central District of the Seventh Australian Horse Battalion raised in Queensland for service in South Africa. The Battalion departed 19 May 1902, 23 Officers, 467 rank and file. His service file is freely available online at the National Archives of Australia website. His next of kin was his father, who lived at Marrickville, NSW.

http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/search/index.aspx (Search as a guest)

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Wednesday 11 April 12 08:25 BST (UK): Hi again Simone (and JM who has been keeping you informed and all those other rellies out there). We've been away for Easter as JM suggested.

Interesting mediums these forums - have found relatives of my Mum's too, so now have two (three) to watch.

The only thing I can correct here is the birth-date of Thomas Barker Chapman Benson which technically gives Barker and Hannah 6 more days to get down to Sydney for the baptism.

Baptism 354 Vol 28 (as JM has said) has Thomas BC's birthdate as 10 March 1844 not the 16th, according to my copy of it from the R.G's.

To add to JM's info on TBC at Goodooga. He was the manager of Brenda Station for many years and he was at a smaller one before that - the name of which escapes me. Put his name into Google and you'll come up with relevant info. He was married at Brewarrina and traces I've done on him show the family from his line moved predominantly to Lismore way. The National Library Archives have a photo of Goodooga (don't quote me) hotel in 1915 with a heap of townspeople in front of it. I have often wondered if he is in it?

I'm interested in the address of where Barker was an apothecary (in London I'm presuming) if you wouldn't mind sharing it?

Also reminding everyone that JM is right about us not really knowing for sure Barker was in Carcoar except the same Baptism record lists the abode as Carcoar for Barker and Hannah. I haven't said this before but it could be politically incorrect to suggest that Barker was the first MD of Carcoar because the Carcoar people have just done a big research document on another doctor as the first doctor there who co-incidentally came from Brisbane Water (have often wondered if it was a swap) - any new info would certainly muck up any first impressions they had if Barker was proved to be a registered MD at that point. See my post on General Robson Benson one of (Barker's younger brothers) serving in India alongside Henry Bowler - Major John Bowler's father. As you said Barker got around (and I would add General's have connections).

I found in a Govt. Gazette list an unclaimed letter for Barker in 1843 and I have often wondered if it was just from his father or it may have been his credentials?

I (Angela) too have written up the English family side of things and will one day get round to starting on the Australian extension. I love this family I married into they are such an interesting bunch even though my father-in-law the longest living male relative who carries the name was 'Just our Bill' (P.G. Woodhouse). Also when we went up to Henry Kendall's cottage last month, Gwen Dundon a researcher for the Brisbane Water Historical Society has Barker as one of the early MD's in her 5th edition of the area. (It's worth a visit if you haven't been). Reading the Rev. Alfred Glennie's notes through, Barker in his later years was one of many doctors in the area, but as you say known personally (and I would say affectionately) to him.

Good to see this forum going again. It's good I've found to print it all off, so we aren't doubling up on info that's gone before.

All for now Barkrelsatthepoint xxx
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 11 April 12 09:43 BST (UK): Hi there,

Re 10th v 16th March 1844.... I am not sure that the actual date in March is significant, as I think that any journey from Carcoar to Sydney Town involving a new baby would also involve that new baby's mum, particularly for feeding the wee babe. What strikes me as significant is that the baptism occurred in the week immediately before Easter, and that it is very rare to find C of E baptisms during Lent, at any time in NSW records until at least the 1930s. As the C of E was the established Church in NSW from settlement, and as the baptism was at St James C of E, I think that a baptism in the week before Easter is indicating that the baby or possibly his mum was not expected to survive the week. This suggests to me that the birth occurred in Sydney Town rather than at Carcoar..... I really have difficulty in imagining a Medico permitting his wife and new babe to undertake the journey from Carcoar to Sydney in 1844.... Very few suitable overnight accomodations, where to re-fresh or stable horse/s, and the climb up to Mt Boyce even from Mt Blaxland would all be huge obstacles to my way of thinking. Possible ferry/punt at the Nepean (a bridge was finished during 1844 and opened by Gov. Fitzroy, but I don't have the month handy, adding I need to confirm this, my private family papers have it as 1856 ); getting across South Creek, Eastern Creek etc all long before arriving at Parramatta etc.

I am assuming that the doc issued by NSW BDM re TBC's birth and baptism is actually a typed up document, issued in 2011 and thus is a transcribed record made in 2011. I think if it is important to know if it reads 10 th or 16 th March 1844 that the actual hand written parish register was filmed many moons ago and can be sighted at the NSW State Library.

PS, I am not a descendant, just an RChatter with a reputation for being somewhat NSW Centric, particularly for 19thC records... Several of my forebears arrived before Gov Macquarie and there's so many of us scattered throughout the central west and far west of NSW, generation after generation of us....

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 11 April 12 10:34 BST (UK): I have checked my family's private papers and found that a road suitable for horse drawn carriages was cut in 1832 from Mt York down to Little Hartley. So I have then googled and found this info confirming that cutting:

http://www.sydney.visitorsbureau.com.au/regions/blue-mountains.html

Adding :
http://infobluemountains.net.au/history/mitchell.htm

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 11 April 12 11:42 BST (UK): May I ask if the B J BENSON and the Robert BENSON mentioned in the Australasian Chronicle 11 July 1843 were related in any way, and if that B J BENSON would be Barker Joseph himself ! It is a list of unclaimed letters for the month of June 1843, the letters were being held at Pages River. Poor Hannah, moving so frequently...

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31740490

Was that Barker Joseph up around Moreton Bay in May 1848 ... unclaimed letter The Moreton Bay Courier 13 May 1848 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3713736 or was there a different B J Benson Esq. moving frequently throughout the then NSW Colony. I think the chap proposing various resolutions at a public meeting on 9 September 1848 was most likely Barker Joseph BENSON, ... Dr Benson, BJ Benson Esq., MD etc
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12908877 SMH 14 Sept 1848.

I am fairly certain that the reporter for Bell’s Life writing about Barker Joseph BENSON as a sawbones was perhaps being rather hysterical in his words .... http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/5434153 1 Dec 1849. He chose to refer to John Harrison of Church Hill as a gallipot scraper and also to use parentheses to write “ (otherwise Doctor)” when giving the occupation for Harrison. I think the earlier article in same newspaper was just as supercritical in its reporting http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/59769535 22 Sept 1849.

I am not sure if I have previously mentioned that apart from the digitised newspapers online via TROVE, that there is an earlier project of the NLA also including newspapers, and it is part of the Ferguson collection at this link. There’s no option available for keyword searches, but there’s many additional newspapers covering the 1840s when Barker Joseph Benson was first in NSW. http://www.nla.gov.au/ferg

Cheers, JM (I am intrigued by Barker, in case none of his descendants has noticed ! ;D )
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Wednesday 11 April 12 12:08 BST (UK): This site is so good, JM your last post came as a warning it was there.

I appreciate both the fact that you're not a rellie but that you could be interested in Barker - it seems as if he wants something out that's not out - that is if mystery is allowed to be part of the thinking? He is by far the least conformist child of Thomas and Sarah Benson - perhaps the move from Whitby where he was born was unsettling when he was so young or perhaps it just created a sense of adventure?

I personally find it difficult also to believe that the baby was born in Carcoar however that does not preclude the fact that at the time Barker and Hannah could have been living there. I agree with all that you have said re the difficulty of the roads (if they could be called that then) the risk to safety through bushranger types etc and also it definitely would seem strange to birth a baby in Carcoar and then bring him all the way down to Sydney to be baptised at the time of the year (being Lent as you say).

That said Simone on the NSW site (pg 4) seems confident the birth was in Carcoar as in:

"I don't remember if was this thread on Barker or another but in regards to the 'Carcoar' issue I could never work out either why they went there as soon as the arrived, however Barker & Hannah's eldest son Thomas Barker Chapman Benson was born in Carcoar in 1844 so it was definitely them. I have meet with the direct descendants of Thomas and his Grandson Lester still remembered him from his childhood."

Simone could I ask if this is fact (Carcoar) or just a passing comment?

I just had the thought that getting all the information on people like Barker - JM - is like painting a picture of the times around a certain personage of them and making both the times and person come very much alive.

Cheers barkrels
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 11 April 12 12:38 BST (UK): Quote from: majm on Wednesday 11 April 12 03:17 BST (UK)
Hi Simone,

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,513531.50.html (Yorkshire North Riding)
......At reply # 7 blynch2 has Thomas Barker Chapman BENSON as b 1844 at Carcoar........

I think Carcoar comes from Blynch2 .... see my quick summary for Simone on this current Australian thread at reply # 66 where I hope I found it mentioned on the Yorkshire thread !

So complicated, sorry....

I think that because as a young lass I was the named beneficiary in a forebear's will and thus received several trunk loads of well researched "genealogy" notes as well as family papers, documents, etc and all are to do with NSW, particularly in the 19thC and the development of democracy and responsible government and widening the franchise to include Women, that I have a great love for NSW history since settlement. And Barker was around Glebe in his last years, which is where the forebear who willed me all these genie things was raised.... At least that's my excuse ! ;D (My family's private papers are, as per express directions in that benefit, to be lodged at The Mitchell Library no earlier than 2020, and they are properly conserved, and The Mitchell is aware of them etc).

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Wednesday 11 April 12 12:45 BST (UK): Hmm... I just came across this information from the Peacock website and as it was described to people living it seems reasonable that it wasn't as time consuming across the mountains as it may have seemed:

"It was usual at the time for immigrants to be transported to Bathurst by cart. Elizabeth told her great-grandchildren that she travelled by bullock-drawn cart. The journey could be done by horse-drawn coach in four days, thus necessitating three overnight stops, one at the Weatherboard Hut (which provided very primitive accommodation where Faulconbridge is now), the second at Collett's Inn at Hartley (which still stands), and the third at Sidmouth (at the headwaters of the Fish River). It is likely that the journey by bullock cart would have taken much longer, with overnight camps by the roadside. This journey was described by Elizabeth, then four years old, to descendants now living. " This journey took place in 1841: see

http://ourrelatives.info/index.php/Peacock/the-peacock-family.html

Just another perspective.

Cheers

Seen your last post. Envious of work already done, but it's just as interesting trying to find it out today as well.
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Wednesday 11 April 12 12:51 BST (UK): PS Definitely Simone on pg 4 of 1840's NSW site from your link to it JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 11 April 12 12:53 BST (UK): Agh, many thanks for that link.... I have not ever found that .... wonderful !

I know of Collett's Inn at Hartley, perhaps I have a photo that OH and I took back in the 1970s or thereabouts.

And yes, I am thoroughly enjoying re-validating that earlier research from my armchair, (I had re-validated it the 'old fashioned way in past decades), and I find so much more has now been indexed, via so many online indexes. Then I go to those archives and have a fantastic time with more 'proper' finds.

A hobby for a lifetime ... and there has been several lifetimes work involved, collaberating with notes written in the 1920s long before my own parents had completed their schooling...and reading about forebears from 1793 agh .... RChatters understand of course ...

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 11 April 12 13:05 BST (UK): Re Carcoar,

Blynch2 has this from 15 Feb 2011 on the Yorkshire thread :) http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,513531.0.html

"Hi Carna!
Barker Joseph Benson was my great great grandfather. I have lots of information about him. I don't really know where to start! He and Hannah had the following children: Thomas Barker Chapman Benson b. 1844 at Carcoar; William Robson Benson b. 1845, Gosford; Edward Vandervord Benson b. 1847 at Gosford; John Havindon Benson b. 1849 at Gosford; Joseph James Benson b. 1852 at Gosford; Emily Lancaster Benson b 1854 at Gosford; Willis Allatson Benson b. 1860 at Gosford. Which of his children are you descended from? William Robson Benson was my great grandfather."

And Simone has this from the "Dr Joseph Barker Benson thread on the Australian Board 10 April 2012....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,513004.0.html

" I don't remember if was this thread on Barker or another but in regards to the 'Carcoar' issue I could never work out either why they went there as soon as the arrived, however Barker & Hannah's eldest son Thomas Barker Chapman Benson was born in Carcoar in 1844 so it was definitely them. I have meet with the direct descendants of Thomas and his Grandson Lester still remembered him from his childhood."

So I guess we are asking Simone, "Before you read these threads, how did you determine that Thomas Barker Chapman BENSON was born at Carcoar in 1844" .... Hope you are not thinking that we are doubting you, just simply that it would be absolutely grand if you have info apart from the NSW BDM registration of his birth and baptism....

Fingers crossed, it would be fantastic to have absolute confirmation !

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: SimoneAllaston on Thursday 12 April 12 07:50 BST (UK): No that's ok.... I met his direct descendant Lester Benson (not sure if he's still around he was quite old)

If you PM me your email I can send you all of the Carcoar details. The family stayed in the area. Lester Benson has given me copies of newspaper articles and other copies of documents from Thomas Benson.
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: SimoneAllaston on Thursday 12 April 12 08:11 BST (UK): Just read my notes from Lester and I correct myself.. the family moved to NW NSW.
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Saturday 14 April 12 10:21 BST (UK): Hi

Just troving 'Trove' and whilst the article isn't about Barker his brother Col (at the time) Robson is. I've seen the start of Robson's journey to address Tharawaddie in one of the Asiatic Journals but this article is interesting as a time in history (and I've been there myself) and also an insight into what a struggle Robson had (not surprising he made General!

Southern Australian (Adelaide, SA : 1838 - 1844) Wednesday 25 September 1839 p 3 Article
... appa. sitios ; Md ttiat^oBt MaluMned' Jbl j a'r^tu;* in íhemouniaiBS. T»eso favearabtereparta1 may ... troops, hiiUocWs, gu s, andeil the uiaoitione of war at Moat mein ; s nd Col.' Benson is «pi ¡eily ... 3099 words

Cheers
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Saturday 14 April 12 10:36 BST (UK): Hmm. This is an interesting case:

As we all know Barker rented property from Samuel Peek in East Gosford so I wonder if I'm the only one wondering what this 'case' is all about. See:

Trove: The Sydney Herald (NSW : 1831 - 1842) Tuesday 24 May 1842 p 3 Advertising
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Saturday 14 April 12 10:55 BST (UK): Here's another one: guessing Barker was in Sydney between the dissolution of his and Parkinson's business and he(they) stayed in King St.

The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842 - 1954) Monday 19 December 1842 p 1 Advertising
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: lou4lou on Monday 16 April 12 10:13 BST (UK): Many surgeons were admitted to Licentiate of Apothecaries Company of London, and their records appear to be poor (or non-existent?) Another relative - John Yates Rutter was admitted on 12.05.1836, but there is no record of his father, Thomas, who was also a surgeon. Rutter was the father of Ida Florence, who married William Robson Benson, parents of my grandfather, Theodore
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: SimoneAllaston on Thursday 19 April 12 06:40 BST (UK): My focus of research is Qualitative research into Barker's and my family history based on personal interest in his and his families character. Facts must be accurate if they are to be used and JM I think keeps us on track here.

My focus is on learning about Barker's character and personality where possible. For me this is where the story is. Facts give us the locations his life took place but personal diaries and family stories are what interest me.

To Carcoar or not to Carcoar... who knows, maybe we never will. If the descendants of the son born in Carcoar believe and are ok with the Carcoar story then that suits me just fine. Life at this time was one of 'introduction' so as Barkrelsonthepoint points out other broader connections such as friend of General Robson Benson, or as I've have been wondering..Where is Hannah's sponsor Mrs Lancaster.. is there a Lancaster in Carcoar???? may just turn out that we need to look and think more laterally to solve the Carcoar mystery.

Apothecaries were often schooled by apprenticeship to a doctor or licensed apothecary. Records were not always kept. Not the ideally scenario but we could all be looking for something that doesn't exist.

I was given the address in London of the place Barker worked as an apothecary as being:

29 Spencer st Goswell.

Goswell, if you google it, is not a suburb. So it either used to be or relates to the fact that Spencer st crosses Goswell Rd. Either way no google search returns any concrete proof of this address.
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Thursday 19 April 12 08:58 BST (UK): Hi Simone,

Here's the summary of the info and the site you can find the two documents I told you about. I'm putting a summary of the 'Apple Incident' as it is Crown Copyrighted and I paid to download it - don't want to upset anyone. I'm also going to list off anyone who I think the Benson's might have been 'associated' with as such in 1840 when the subscriber's list was commenced. The Seaham Harbour Church Bazaar held at the Athenaeum in Bishop -Wearmouth in September 1841 was attended by Sarah Benson the Mum but not by Barker as he was in NZ/OZ at the time.

Barker's misdeamour as I have named the file is the summary of the court case in the London Gazette 24th Dec 1837. Now as we all know or should thanks to the blurb that keeps coming up on Google relating to Beresford Genealogy that he was on a boat 'the Somersetshire' to Bombay in January 1838 and didn't get back for 12 months in Jan 1839 it seems highly likely to us that this is the incident which cheesed of his parents no end. Question - Who was the Barrister friend who paid his fine? All things considered Barker is darn lucky he got away with it.

The article in summary:

- described as a man of fashionable exterior who had already been charged for stealing 'knockers'.

- Mr. Twyford and Mr. Tarrant are the judges.

- Barker is of Woburn Pl St Pancras.and was described as very tipsy at the time of the incident - ie being found with the basket of apples on his head!!!

- Philip Cambrey was the Covent Garden Marketer who owned the apples.

- the magistrates were probably very amused if the truth be known and Barker got away with a fine of 5 l (shillings I'm presuming) and as I said it was paid by a barrister friend of his.

Now for the Marchioness' diary which can be found on-line at:

w.w.w.archive.org/stream/journalofthreemo00lond/journalofth...

Otherwise put Full text of "A journal of a three month tour in Portugal, Spain, Africa into Goog;e and it should come up.

What I have gleaned from the document:

In the subscribers lists is:

Mrs Benson, 16 Upper Woburn Pl, Tavistock Square
J. Benson, Esq ditto.

I have taken this to be Joseph Barker Benson or our Barker Joseph Benson, because I feel the family may have called him Joseph rather than Barker. Also Sarah's father who was Joseph Barker was dead by this time so it is not him. No other child of Thomas and Sarah's starts with J. Alternatively this is her nephew son of a brother????

Other subscribers known to the Bensons are:

Possibly all the royals:
Margaret Barker of Wynard Park
The Archbishop of Canterbury
Aaron Chapman
John Chapman
William Goodrich
John Nicholson (Barker's sister Dorothy's husband)
Several Robsons - relatives from Thomas' mother
Willis of Wolverton

Realistically all to just many of the people listed could have been known to the Bensons.

As for William Heard Vandervord - Have a look at the site on Vandervord Bargemen and you'll get some idea of who the Vandervords were!!!

Well all for now, I'm off to choir practice for Anzac Day.

As Riljke says 'Keep asking the questions and one day the answers will fit into themselves' or something along that line.

Cheers barkrels

-
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: SimoneAllaston on Friday 20 April 12 04:19 BST (UK): Barkrels,

Thank you so much. The attachment on th email hasn't opened but I will try on my office computer later.

I have a few questions for the fact hunters... dates that seem to not add up:

Firstly, in one of Barker's journals around 1834-1835ish he mentions he was a lawyer, he was with a law firm for 4 years and disliked the profession. So Angela maybe this is the link to who paid his fine in the Apple incident. P.S the apples just make me love him more... not the first person to wake up tipsy with carzy head appreal!!!

-Barker & Hannah arrived in New Zealand 18/6/1841 and got married.
-Arrived in Sydney (married) aboard Harrington 13/9/1841.
-Barker and Hananh are listed as passengers aboard the Whitby (a coal ship) leaving Port Nicholson (Wellington???? Again ????) 6/1/1842 and then on to the Isle of Pines 17/4/1842. The 'Whitby' was a chapman owned ship sailing out of Wellington Port.
-THEN..... 30/5/1842 BJ Benson and A Parkinson were placed under sequestation.

If Barker was in the Isle of Pines April 1842 when did he find time to have a business in Gosford?? No wonder he went bankrupt.

So Barker and Hannah arrived in Sydney went to gosford.. started a business.. and only 4 months after arriving sailed off again to NZ/Isle of Pines... then got back to Sydney to be bankrupt 1 month later!!!!!

Does any one know of Barker's diary from the England to New Zealand... there must be one he wrote journals on every other voyage.....
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: majm on Friday 20 April 12 04:53 BST (UK): ;D

Well, among the many questions I have:
I want to know
a) how Barker and Hannah got from the Isle of Pines in April 1842 ...
b) why they went there in the first place....
and .... oh there are far too many questions that I want answers to, and I am not even a descendant, so I can well imagine all the many questions you are all asking!

Has anyone introduced Simone and Lou to Carna yet?

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Friday 20 April 12 06:25 BST (UK): Hi Simone, Lou4Lou, JM who seem to be the ardent ones at the moment. Where are you Carna, Blynch2 and Gill (Robson's rellie)???

I'm loathe to ask this question but since what Simone has written implicates Abraham Parkinson as running the business while Barker and Hannah were off galavanting (or business venturing) is there any info out there rather than just the bankruptcy details???

The later papers (and journal Blynch 2 has?) paint a picture of Barker becoming a doctor and being very much at home in the East Gosford area, especially as he knew Rev. Arthur Glennie, Edmund Hargraves, Charles Ventemann, Samuel Peek, Henry Kendall (his brother -in-law) The Bishop of Newcastle, just to name a few and don't forget Major John Bowler at Carcoar. The tone of the bankruptcy aftermath is not good with Barker once again trying to hold up the good name of 'Benson' but seeming to have got himself into hot-water 'as usual'.

On the Parkinson front - they too are a well-known Whitby family right back to the Burgesses of Whitby in the 1600's and all the way down the line they are linked in some way to the Benson's just as the Chapmans, Walkers, Nobles, Boulbys, Clemeshas, Clarkes, Coultas', Skinners, Willis', Newtons, Lascelles, de la Poles, Earls of Suffolk, John of Gaunt, Edward 111, and Henry 111, Temples, Robsons, Allatsons, Goodriches, Cholmleys, Lotheringtons, Lunds, Boyes, and Captain Cook are!!! Hope I haven't missed anyone - possibly Beresford as they have info on their site I haven't accessed yet. Note I said linked not related as relations only applies to a few, the others were 'business venturers' the same as the Benson's and are linked by association only. You said you wanted a 'back picture' Simone so this should get you started - Oh and don't forget those Vandervords.

I'm fascinated by this generation of the family - Barker doesn't seem to like to sit still - possibly the gout it tends to drive people mad! Hannah must have loved the travelling life also as she seems from the posts to be with him all the way.

To add more fuel to the fire:

Was his travelling bug inherited from his parents (father) or were they sending Barker off around the world when he was only 11???

The Whitby Museum records which are on-line show the Bensons as donating

in 1826 a Wasp's nest from Surinam,
1827 Some valuable Egyptian Antiquities,
1827 A Mummy Cat from Upper Egypt,

At this point you could also ask was Barker (if left at home) left too much to his own devices???

In 1841 the same year Barker leaves for OZ his father donates a large and valuable collection of Shells, Corals and Minerals from the West Indies. and also Two large stone cannon balls taken out of the sea near Rhodes; A musket from an ancient wreck of a vessel off Cornwall and the Steels' Navy list assortment.

1844 a part of a foot-rope taken out of the sail room of the Royal George at Spithead in 1843,

and in 1845 a large Terebratula, from the top of a high mountain in Peru!!!

Are we getting a picture of a well travelled family or parents??? The Marchioness has got nothing on the Bensons!

Have fun digesting all this I try the Parkinson Track and anything else that comes to mind to investigate.

Cheers for now barkrels
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: SimoneAllaston on Friday 20 April 12 07:25 BST (UK): Barkrels you are officially blowing my mind.. just when I think the story can't get any better it so does....

My earlier comments about Barker & Hannah's early movement Isle of Pines etc is me trying to create a mental time line of his movements. I got the Isle of Pine dates from klynch2 possibly vis Bruce Beresford so It bugs me not to be able to talk with them now to check their facts. However google has shown Mr & Mrs Benson aboard the "whitby" as passengers on a colliery trip. Which fits seeing that Barker's trip to Bombay was on a colliery vessel and the family and their associates were in coal..... every answer seems to wield 10 more questions LOL...

Barkrels where did you find all the amazing info on Thomas Benson and his donations? online I hope...

I am obsessed if you noticed hehhe at the moment with Barker.

Our line descended from Barker's son are all interesting strong women who are free thinkers, artists, photographers, entrepreneurs and travellers. We still have ship captains among us and an Aunt and my mother that spends their life on the high seas so we feel very close to our relies. We've done our share I think of keeping up the family legacy ....

I propose a family meetup Jm included as an honorary Benson... :) I am in Kellyville (Castle Hill) and will travel pretty much anywhere in NSW in the pursuit of a good story. My email is (*)

PS I have left a phone message for Klynch2 who I can only assume by her previous helpfulness is on holidays. Lester Benson I will call in on tomorrow (JM he is the Carcoar descendant) as he used to be only 5 mins from me. Fingers cross he's still there....

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Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Friday 20 April 12 08:20 BST (UK): Hi Simone and all,

Looking after grandkids so not much free time at the moment. Would love the 'get-together' to happen we're over the south side of Sydney but in true 'Benson Tradition' we'll travel anywhere. May be the answer is to meet at Henry Kendall Cottage Museum grounds on a weekend and then we'll feel family connected - Carna is in Gosford not sure about the others. Timing for everyone will be the issue and we should (I feel) ensure we get all the attendance we can.

In regard to the Whitby Museum stuff, I unlike those who have family history at hand in the form of journals had nothing else but the names of Barker and his parents Thomas and Sarah on his birth certificate. So I spent eighteen months researching the net to get any clues I could. I searched 14, 000 Benson names alone on the British Newspaper site and when I had found 90 references that looked promising I paid to open them all up. I found over 50 references to Thomas Benson that proved he was no slouch. I searched 10,000 on the London Gazette site. Every bit of other info basically came from wills, birth and death certificates and finding documents on-line like the donations to the Whitby Museum document which I had to trawl through and work out if anything was pertinent to us. Thomas and his brother William (Benson/Willis) were made honarary patrons of the museum and I only recorded what Thomas donated - I'm sure William has just as much!!!

I have no idea how I found it and the gate may be closed so to speak now but its worth a search by starting with their site and seeing if you can find it. I did not download it to my computer.

It never really meant much to us before because it just seemed logical (quantitative) that as they were involved in shipping that they would travel!!!
But in looking for qualitative info on Barker it seems to shed a new light on why he had the travel bug. The newspaper articles show that his brothers Thomas, William Chapman and Willis were all involved in the ship industry. Barker's name never came up in the same regard. Robson is plastered through newpapers, and through the Asiatic journals so it was not hard to suss out that he could have been a 'favorite son' so to speak. Thomas is the most successful businessman (also William who was involved in establishing the train line through Yorkshire) in the history of the Bensons and it's interesting that his childrens line fits the sociological phenomenon of living a lot longer than their forbears. Robson lived to a ripe old age. Don't quote me but they all lived to over 50 at a time when the expected time to die was 44.

I guess the awesome thing is that there is information out there. Rick's uncle did our other family lines the old-fashioned way and what with trips overseas I heard him quote a figure of $30,000!!! It's been far easier for us and the net is an awesome tool.

All for now - have to change a nappy. Such is life.

Cheers barkrels
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Friday 20 April 12 11:48 BST (UK): My mind is running on overtime and whilst it sheds no new light on things - we already new the Benson's were ships chandlers, coal merchants and in business with Old as Old and Benson, this document is awesome!!!

Thanks to your info Simone, on Goswell st, I put a Google map together of Upper Woburn Pl, Spencer St, Goswell St and Crane Court-fleet St and they are all in walking distance of each other. The Crane Court reference comes from the London Exeter working papers and there is a firm of Barker and Benson operating there over a period of years from 1826 to 1838. I can't prove anything, but it's interesting that later references to this place show it as a medical suppliers!!!

Anyway the document I found as a result of putting Goswell St into Google is the Robson's directory of London 1842 - don't consider down-loading it it will take hours but it comes up for viewing on-line easy enough. Their search engine is amazing and all the references to Benson showed up the places we knew the Benson's business' were situated. Regardless it is an awesome picture of London business and worth a look. Follow the link:

http://archive.org/stream/robsonslondondir00robsrich#page/32/mode/2up

Love looking through the London references we had an awesome time there in 2010 walking as much as we could in the Benson footsteps.

Cheers barkrels
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Friday 20 April 12 12:48 BST (UK): Here's the link for the Whitby Museum

http://www.archive.org/stream/reportofwhitbyli25whit/reportofwhitbyli25whit_djvu.txt

Cheers barkrels

PS: Isles of Pines....Hmmm what were Barker and Hannah thinking - Sandalwood Massacre and many more before April 1842 - were they related to Captain Nichols or something - 30 Sydney business men involved in a venture regarding sandalwood - Missionaries eaten by cannibals - The mind boggles.
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: lou4lou on Saturday 21 April 12 00:37 BST (UK): Just an aside - with this focus on Barker, has anyone considered that, with her family background, Hannah may actually have played a major role in these travels & adventuring? She must have seen exotic and unusual imports, etc, being from a well-known family of hoymen in th Thames estuary whose background, including travelling from the Netherlands, sets them up also as the pioneering type. An early suffragette?
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Saturday 21 April 12 02:47 BST (UK): Hi Lou4Lou,

Totally agree, guess her references have got to come from the Vandervords though - as with all the women including me (I'm married into the Bensons my favorite family at the moment) we're background to the men but as the saying goes "Behind every good man there's a good woman" or perhaps as you've suggested it should be "In front of every good man is a good woman leading the way" (He-He). I guess that's why I like the Whitby Museum document - it personally thanks Sarah for her contribution as a woman in her own right not as Thomas' wife if you see what I mean.

Enjoying the chatter which is what the site is about - have a good weekend

Cheers barkrels
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: lou4lou on Saturday 21 April 12 05:42 BST (UK): At the risk of sounding pompous (I don't mean to), each of us who is a direct descendant of Barker and Emily is as much a Vandervord as a Benson. I think it's important that we look also at her family and background when trying to understand our heritage. She must have been an amazing woman, or an extremely subservient one, to accompany Barker into unknown areas at such a young age.
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Sunday 22 April 12 04:01 BST (UK): Maybe the answer is hidden in this notice on Trove ???

The problem with trying to treat Hannah as an individual in her own right lies in the fact that in her day and age when she married she became Mrs. Barker Benson. Back in the deep recesses of my mind I knew I had seen this notice before on Trove and it at least establishes a relative connection.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12964107?searchTerm=Vandervord,%20&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc

Cheers barkrels
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Sunday 22 April 12 04:09 BST (UK): PS

If it won't open it's dated the 9 Jan 1855
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: lou4lou on Sunday 22 April 12 08:46 BST (UK): Thanks for that reference - I have seen it before. I understand how women were treated as merely extensions of their husbands in those times, but am fascinated by Hannah - she came out as a 17-year old alone with the man she was to marry - or did they meet on the voyage?
My mother tells me, just as a humorous sidelight, that her Aunt Bertha (daughter of Barker's son William Robson) used artefacts gathered by either Barker or William as garden stakes in her backyard at Bexley. She also recalls a story about William riding a horse up the steps of Sydney Town Hall
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: Barkrelsatthepoint on Monday 23 April 12 12:05 BST (UK): Hi all,

I thought I'd be persistent and see if I could find anything on Barker and Hannah in NZ other than the place they got married. Instead found this document 'Journal by ngairedith'

http://www.familytreecircles.com/passngers-of-the-catherine-stewart-forbes-wellington-1841-32720.html

As I read it I realized a couple of things I hadn't noticed before:

1. The very young ages of the passengers.
2. A striking number of families with young 'teenage' girls and boys.
3. A person by the name of Mary Durham who in this document is described as a MATRON.
4. The fact that Hannah wasn't the only very young semptress.

Others seemingly travelling on their own are:

Amoss, Mary Ann - 19 - Dressmaker
Squire, Emma - 16 – Sempstress
Swaffer, Martha - 22 - Sempstress
Swaffer, Matilda - 19 - Sempstress

Many other girls in the families use the same title 'semptress' to describe their skills - one as young as 12 years of age.

I then thought that if you add Matron Durham who is 54 years of age (the oldest passenger) and at minimum five girls all calling themselves 'semptresses' could it be that they all 'belong together'???

Maybe it's grasping at straws but a bunch of girls being allowed to go abroad under the patronage??? of an older woman seems a far more likely scenario than all these young ladies travelling on their own???

It doesn't rule out the possibility that Barker and Hannah eloped, but perhaps this is an avenue to set about discovering.

Cheers barkrels
Title: Re: Doctor BENSON or Quack?
Post by: oldbarkersrelsatmenai on Thursday 30 March 17 21:34 BST (UK): Hi anyone out there still getting alerts for this thread. Its barkersrels at the point here but we've moved so I've re-registered.

I am now writing the second book on the Australian story after writing the first one for our own family on the English Bensons. I bought Simone's book online and it gave me a jump start back to England even though I was about to finish up the Australian one. 16 pages later...

So if your family tree stops at Thomas Benson's will from Whitby Museum, I'm commending to you a site which I found 7 weeks ago and gave been working on ever since. I'll call it 'Meet the rellies'
it's at Lady Day 1673 Hearth Assessment for North Riding of Yorkshire. The 1672 version for the East Riding is a gem also. I can give you many more sites not the least being a connection to Chapman and Company from Simone's book and I can tell you what Barker was doing in 1836 I think it is and its to do with law! Oh also I came across a great thesis on Universities and Doctoring.
I don't think its fair to keep it to myself after all genealogy research is about helping others. Hope someone out there is still interested.

Cheers xxx

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