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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: Montana272 on Sunday 27 March 11 06:52 BST (UK)

Title: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: Montana272 on Sunday 27 March 11 06:52 BST (UK)
I am at my last ditch effort to find information on Charlotte Caldwell.  Scotlands People has no birth record, no death record for her.  This is all that I have.  Walter Cathcart married Charlott Caldwell on July 15th 1800 in Abbey Renfrewshire.  Together they had a ton of children.  All of these children were born in Abbey Renfrewshire.  Their address was listed as " Smithhills"  Last child born to this union was in 1825.  Walter & Charlott are not listed in the 1841 Census.  I did find some of their children.  I found a death record for Walter Cathcart who died in 1839, age 62 Born "Abbey" listed as a "carter" address " Silk Street"  I am sure this is he, for I found two of his daughters in the 1841 Census.  The youngest only 15 years old living on "Silk Street".  I found a marriage record for Walter Cathcart marrying again in 1831.  I thought it was the son Walter, but later discovered it was not his son.  So either Charlotte died between 1825 and 1831 or they were divorced?  Did they even do that back then?  I think she died.  This family did not appear to be poor.  I am sure they could afford a headstone for Charlotte.  Maybe it is gone by now.  But even if it existed, I don't know where they buried her.  Their Parrish is listed as "Abbey"  I have bought Vol 1 & Vol 2  of Renfrewshire monumental inscriptions.  I thought for sure she would be listed in that.  Maybe I bought the wrong area ??  But  she is not in those two books.  I thought they had all the records for Renfrewshire in these two books.  So was I wrong? Is there another area where she may have been buried?  Sorry to sound like a dummy but   I am lost at this point.  How can I find out who Charlotte's parents were?   If Scotlands people have no record of Charlotte's birth or Death, does this mean that the Renfrewshire historical society would have no record either?  I have spent so much on every record that I thought would give me an answer, but nothing has led me closer, other than knowing that she must have died between 1825 and 1831.  Where do I go from here?  Where could she be buried?
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: portybelle on Sunday 27 March 11 08:21 BST (UK)
Have you tried the myrenfrew forum? Although it is more recent childhood memories mostly discussed there, someone may be able to help you out with details about the parish or burials or hopefully just point you in the direction of someone who could help.

http://www.myrenfrew.com/renfrew.htm
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: RJ_Paton on Sunday 27 March 11 09:40 BST (UK)
Divorce at that time was unlikely (although not impossible) - Given their marriage in 1800 and that she had "a ton of children" a relatively early death is highly possible. The third possibility is that he abandoned her.

Although you have the lists of monumental inscriptions and have been unable to find any entries for Charlotte this does not mean she is not buried in one of those cemeteries - It simply indicates that there is no headstone that could have been recorded. With regard to the Church records the recording of deaths in Scotland was at best very patchy. Although you state that you believe the family were wealthy enough to afford a headstone with a large family (implied by the "ton of children") living on the earnings of a carter, life would have been tough and probably with little cash to spare.

The two main cemeteries in Paisley did not open until later (Woodside in 1845 and Hawkhead in 1891) so if she is buried in Paisley it is more likely that she was buried in one of the Churchyards. Another possibility is that she was not from the area and was buried nearer her own parents. It was more traditional to bury loved ones in a place associated with the family rather than the place where they died. It is also possible that she and her husband share the same lair.

Both Silk Street and Smithhills are within a few hundred yards of the Abbey building itself so if they were Church of Scotland it is possible that they may have been buried in the Abbey grounds.
Paisley was also a hotbed for breakaway sects from the main Church and while records were maintained by the individual churches they are not available online.

Renfrewshire Council offer a search service of their records but their website simply states that depending upon the level of information provided a charge may be levied for such a search - they do not say how much although if the fee level is anything like that in Glasgow it will be hefty.
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: Montana272 on Sunday 27 March 11 16:41 BST (UK)
Thank you for that information.  I should have also mentioned that a couple other records indicate that he was a "goods carrier"   I found him listed in the directories, but maybe that wasn't him.  It seems the family congregated around Smith hills and Silk Street, and looking at old photos on line, it was a much better area then some of my other ancestors residence.  So I just assumed they did fairly well.    Thanks for taking the time to explain it, so that I can at least see that I have not missed something.   
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: RJ_Paton on Sunday 27 March 11 17:21 BST (UK)
If we look at the information a little closer it unfortunately poses more question than supplying answers

Quote
I am at my last ditch effort to find information on Charlotte Caldwell.  Scotlands People has no birth record, no death record for her.

The main Old Parish records on Scotlands people are for the Established Church of Scotland with Roman Catholic records added fairly recently- in the main, birth records are reasonably well kept by the churches although there are exceptions and many records have disappeared over the years.

It is also possible that Charlotte was of a different church although the main schism of the established Church did not occur until the 1840's there were a number of other breakaway groups, each of which formed their own churches and maintained their own records.

Quote
  Walter Cathcart married Charlott Caldwell on July 15th 1800 in Abbey Renfrewshire.

Does this record show it as an actual marriage or is it a calling of the Banns (normally called the 3 Sundays preceeding the wedding in both the Grooms and Brides Home Parishes.)

If the notice you have is for the actual wedding then it is probable that Charlotte came from Abbey Parish as it was more normal for the wedding to occur in the Brides home parish.

With regard to Silk Street and Smithhills - both of these areas were levelled in the mid to late Victorian era and tenement buildings were erected which encroached right up to the Abbey burial ground. The Town Hall was constructed later opposite the Abbey and many properties were levelled to allow this, looking at old maps it is also possible that part of the burial grounds were also covered over.  The Victorian/Edwardian tenements were in their turn demolished over the years with the last of them going in the 1960's to leave the Abbey in open space for the first time in a number of years.
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: Montana272 on Sunday 27 March 11 17:44 BST (UK)
The marriage record says " Walter Cathcart  & Charlet Calswell or could be Cadwell both of this parish were booked in and to be marrage Ja 15 on Day.  All the birth records for the kids say "Caldwell"  Unless Somehow her name could have been something different at birth that I am not catching while searching.   
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: RJ_Paton on Sunday 27 March 11 19:28 BST (UK)
The marriage record says " Walter Cathcart  & Charlet Calswell or could be Cadwell both of this parish were booked in and to be marrage Ja 15 on Day.  All the birth records for the kids say "Caldwell"  Unless Somehow her name could have been something different at birth that I am not catching while searching.   

It looks like at the time of the marriage Charlotte was living in the Abbey Parish - which doesn't get us any further forward.

There is also more bad news as far as Abbey parish is concerned in that death/burial records were not kept.
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: Montana272 on Sunday 27 March 11 19:51 BST (UK)
What a bummer.  I guess I won't ever know.  Thank you again for helping me.

Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: WILLIAM 1 on Saturday 02 April 11 17:00 BST (UK)
hi silk street and Smithhills are in paisley as you know.you dont say what religion they are unless i missed it there is the abbey as you know but there is a church called mirrin. that is where the st.mirren comes from it is on incl street in paisley . i think they have grave stones in there i will take a drive there tomorrow and have alook for you. as paisley is only 4 mins drive for me.you have to remember most people at that  time could not spell even the people doing the certificates. i have 6 different ways people have spelt mclintock from that time and caskie.. i hope this helps you
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: Montana272 on Saturday 02 April 11 17:58 BST (UK)
Thank you.  I don't know what religion they were.  I Just have not been able to locate anything on the Mother Charlott Cathcart or Walter Cathcart.  Other than the Death mention for Walter.  I really appreciate you doing that for me.  It is so hard to find out anything when they are not in the Census starting 1841.  I can tell you that I believe Walters Parents were Robert Baird and Mary Baird.  But I am not 100%.  Thanks again
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: RJ_Paton on Saturday 02 April 11 18:11 BST (UK)
Mirrin Cathedral is a Roman Catholic Cathedral  the current building was erected in the early 1800s and was one of the first Roman Catholic churches built since the Reformation.

The entries for the children appear in the Old Parish registers of the Church of Scotland which makes it more than likely that the family were Presbyterian rather than Roman Catholic
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: WILLIAM 1 on Saturday 02 April 11 19:04 BST (UK)
is this the family you are looking for https://www.familysearch.org/search/search/index/record-search-advanced#searchType=records&fed=true&collectionId=&advanced=true&givenName=walter&surname=cathcart&eventType=marriage&marriageLocation=paisley&marriageYear=&range-marriageYear=1&relationship=spouse&spouseFirst=charlott&spouseLast=&filtered=false
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: Montana272 on Saturday 02 April 11 21:05 BST (UK)
Yes, that is the family.   I am still searching for who Charlott's Parents were.   Walter died in 1839 but no record of Charlotts birth or death.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: Montana272 on Saturday 02 April 11 22:31 BST (UK)
hi silk street and Smithhills are in paisley as you know.you dont say what religion they are unless i missed it there is the abbey as you know but there is a church called mirrin. that is where the st.mirren comes from it is on incl street in paisley . i think they have grave stones in there i will take a drive there tomorrow and have alook for you. as paisley is only 4 mins drive for me.you have to remember most people at that  time could not spell even the people doing the certificates. i have 6 different ways people have spelt mclintock from that time and caskie.. i hope this helps you

Yes, I am having trouble with spelling.  I have used scotlands people searching for Surname Varients, and trying different spellings.  I may not be doing something right.  I was unable to find another family name and I had searched the census on ancestry.  It took someone on roots web to locate him for me using scotlands people to find the entry.   There is a "Wedow" Cathcart in the 1941 census living with unknown names, but I can't see that as being her, but again leaves nothing to go on. Proves the spelling thou...LOL "WEDOW "  Who would have thought something should be listed like that!
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: Montana272 on Saturday 02 April 11 22:34 BST (UK)
Mirrin Cathedral is a Roman Catholic Cathedral  the current building was erected in the early 1800s and was one of the first Roman Catholic churches built since the Reformation.

The entries for the children appear in the Old Parish registers of the Church of Scotland which makes it more than likely that the family were Presbyterian rather than Roman Catholic

That makes sense. Thank you.  I am running into more Presbyterian than Catholic in my family. 
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: WILLIAM 1 on Sunday 03 April 11 10:20 BST (UK)
i went to paisley this morning and had a look at st.mirin's cathedral and there is no grave yard at all. and it was built in 1931. so i went to the abbey as well but no grave yard as well outside.then i went to wallneuk north church as that is just down the road from silk street but that does not have a grave yard as well  but that was built in 1913.and woodside first burial was 1891. there are more cemeteries around paisley 
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: Montana272 on Sunday 03 April 11 17:28 BST (UK)
Thank you William for trying I do appreciate it.  Deb
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: WILLIAM 1 on Sunday 03 April 11 19:03 BST (UK)
your very welcome
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: RJ_Paton on Sunday 03 April 11 22:11 BST (UK)
i went to paisley this morning and had a look at st.mirin's cathedral and there is no grave yard at all. and it was built in 1931. so i went to the abbey as well but no grave yard as well outside.then i went to wallneuk north church as that is just down the road from silk street but that does not have a grave yard as well  but that was built in 1913.and woodside first burial was 1891. there are more cemeteries around paisley 

Sorry to correct you but the Abbey does have quite an extensive graveyard - the grassed area between the Abbey building and Gauze Street and Cotton Street is the graveyard. But that said the last time I tried to read one of the stones it was a "hands and knees" job as those  stones which remain are all lying flat and many of them are under grass or hidden in the beds of daffodils. (The vast majority are illegible due to weathering and neglect). However with the lack of any records for that particular period the chance of finding a particular grave is, sadly, nil or as close as one can get.

There is also a small graveyard in Abbey Close opposite the front of the Abbey building and it is tucked away beside the Town Hall but again many of the stones have been moved.

The other graveyards which are close to the area of Silk Street and Smithhills have more or less all met with the same fate over the years.

The Meeting House (at the junction of School Wynd and Oakshaw Street) has a graveyard which extends down to the Railway line but was extremely overgrown the last time I was in there.
The Gaelic Church is now a private dwelling and only a few stones have been left against the perimeter wall (I believe a recent poster said that the majority had been moved from here to Hawkhead Cemetery.
The High Church or Oakshaw Trinity as it is now known has a small graveyard but few stones are legible.
The Laigh Kirk (Low Church) in New Street is now a Cafe/Amenity centre and the stones were all moved to form a garden and seating area.
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: Montana272 on Sunday 03 April 11 22:46 BST (UK)
To me that is such a loss of important historical visual memory.  Even with the loss of the inscriptions, which is normal of the aging process of the stones it seems sad that they just moved the stones and built right over the memorial ground.   I know they may have had no choice as growth is necessary, but even so a loss of such a momumental memory of those lost and now forgotton.  I may be in the minority on this issue, but it is the old Scotland Cemeteries, that I would love to see in person.  If I lived over there,  I know I could find myself wandering through them, or just sitting quietly listening to the peaceful sounds of the birds.  There is something about them that gives me a sense of comfort and peace.  I don't know why.  Maybe I am just nuts, but I find them interestingly beautiful.  For those who have struggled in their life, they are now at peace and those places that are overgrown to me look historically beautiful
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: deebel on Sunday 03 April 11 23:19 BST (UK)
Montana272

    There is a birth on FS of a Jean Cathcart. It may be that Charlotte is in fact Carswell. If so other things may fall into place.

deebel

name:   Jean Cathcart
gender:   Female
baptism/christening date:   14 Mar 1824
baptism/christening place:   ABBEY PAISLEY,RENFREW,SCOTLAND
birth date:   24 Feb 1824
father's name:   Walter Cathcart
mother's name:   Charlotte Carswell
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: Montana272 on Sunday 03 April 11 23:35 BST (UK)
I know.  I thought of that too and tried that.  No Charlotte.  That Jean that you showed me is actually my family link.  Later in life Called Jane.  I think it is odd because Charlotte named two of her children Jean and two Alexander.  One Jean and one Alexander died early, thus she chose to name the others the same names.  I don't know if that was to honor the children she lost, or to carry on her parents name,  but  Jean is a very important name as all the kids seemed to use Jean and the name Charlotte  guite often in naming their own children.  I thought Charlotte is understand able, that is their Mothers name, but  because of the consistent name of Jean and Alexander maybe that was a clue, but I can't find anything.  The first born child of Walter and Charlotte was named John, thou.   I even thought maybe Charlotte was not named Charlotte at birth, but that was a middle name.  As it happened in another line of my scotish ancestry.  Child named Mary Jane, and later called Jeannie.  But It all leads to dead ends.  Unless I find another sibling of Charlotte, which I can't find, I am doomed to not find anymore about her. 
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: Dubs Earley on Monday 28 January 19 09:57 GMT (UK)
Robert Cathcart and Mary Baird
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: goldie61 on Monday 28 January 19 20:13 GMT (UK)
Have you looked in the Paisley Poor Law Index for any  Cathcarts or Caldwells that may be the family?

I see there is a 'Widow Cathcart', husband Walter, listed.
Series 12, statement number 6196.
This index does not give the date for this entry.
The index starts in 1839.

There is also a Charlotte Caldwell listed.
Series 12, Statement number 5733
Again no date for this entry.

Paisley Heritage Centre are very helpful.
They can send you a precis of an entry.
I think the entries are compiled from different indexes, so some of them give more information, and some less.

If you Google Paisley Poor Law Index, you can download the whole pdf of the indexes.
You will see there are quite a lot of Cathcarts - perhaps some of them are the children of Walter, you never know.
You can find a wealth of information in the records if you're lucky.
I know I managed to break one of my huge brick walls of many years when I finally found an application in these records - and again it was by chance, as she was indexed as 'widow Paton'.
It gave me lots of great information about her and her husband's family.

Good luck :)
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: Montana272 on Thursday 31 January 19 15:26 GMT (UK)
Thank you.  I did that and this is the answer that I got back
 "I have searched the Poor Law indexes and unfortunately have not found any records for Charlotte Caldwell or Cathcart, neither for Walter Cathcart.  The records you have found in the online index (series 12 - 6192 and 5733) refer to other applicants". So I will go back and see what the deal is and   I guess it is going to remain a mystery. 
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: Dubs Earley on Thursday 31 January 19 16:02 GMT (UK)
Montana, what details do you have of Charlotte, including all the variations on the name, I'll get the record if it exists, direct from the church. Then we can both put it in our trees.
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: deebel on Thursday 31 January 19 20:16 GMT (UK)
A cursory look at FS lists Cathcart children of Charlotte Caldwell and Walter Cathcart

Jean, Walter, William, Agnes, Mary, Robert, Alexander, John.

I think the answer is that they were taken to Paisley Abbey to be christened but the residence is listed as Eaglesham, Renfrewshire. Perhaps your search should be in Eaglesham for burial records?

deebel
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: deebel on Thursday 31 January 19 20:37 GMT (UK)
see info on the Geni site
https://www.geni.com/people/Walter-Cathcart/6000000006188092417

deebel
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: deebel on Thursday 31 January 19 20:39 GMT (UK)
also Robert Cathcart (father?)

Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: Jeaniebeanie46 on Thursday 31 January 19 20:51 GMT (UK)
Have you tried findagrave.com. I was able to look at all the cemetery records and some have pictures for the paisley cemeteries
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: deebel on Thursday 31 January 19 20:51 GMT (UK)
Was Charlotte English?

Name:   Charlotte Caldwel
Gender:   Female
Christening Date:   27 Aug 1780
Christening Date (Original):   27 AUG 1780
Christening Place:   SAINT GILES,READING,BERKSHIRE,ENGLAND
Father's Name:   John Caldwel
Mother's Name:   Ann
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: Montana272 on Thursday 31 January 19 21:13 GMT (UK)
She may have been because I have not found anything but a marriage record, no ages given no parents or where she was born. but marriage record in Scotland .  Thank you very much, where was that record found? I wish they had the mothers maiden name on that.  Maybe if they had other children besides Charlotte listed. 
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: deebel on Thursday 31 January 19 22:20 GMT (UK)
The other thing occurring to me is that discussion has been centred on Paisley and Paisley Abbey (the church).  Abbey (the parish) also covered Johnstone, Elderslie, Inkerman, Hurlet, Nitshill , Thorn, Quarrelton and all the area of Barrhead right up to where the Levern water runs. (i.e. Carlibar Road in Barrhead was in Abbey parish)
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: deebel on Thursday 31 January 19 22:42 GMT (UK)
She may have been.  Thank you very much, where was that record found? 

Familysearch

deebel
Title: Re: Anyone Near Renfrewshire that can help me?
Post by: Montana272 on Friday 01 February 19 00:36 GMT (UK)
I searched all of scotlands people website for any  Charlotte in all areas, and only two come up, one is a relative named after Charlotte and the other is too old to be my Charlotte.  Thank you for your help.