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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: ashleighn19 on Thursday 24 March 11 03:08 GMT (UK)

Title: Confusing Man!
Post by: ashleighn19 on Thursday 24 March 11 03:08 GMT (UK)
Hi All,

I just used Trove to do a random search on a missing relative, and wouldn't you know it, came up trumps, but now am extremely confused about what I have found.

The clipping states that Sarah Elizabeth is the widow of John Gurr and the third Daughter of John Williams Eyre MMB Castlemaine... I am confused as I have only ever known her father as John Williams... where would the Eyre have come from?

I have very little information about John Williams, and don't even know when or where he died.. could this be the reasoning? Why would it be just Williams on all the childrens birth records, but Williams Eyre here?

Also, what does MMB mean?

Any help appreciated!
Thanks

Ashleigh
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: alison2763 on Thursday 24 March 11 03:13 GMT (UK)
I think MMB is a Solicitor/ Barrister

Regards
Alison
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: alison2763 on Thursday 24 March 11 03:31 GMT (UK)
No come to think of it LLB is a Solictor/Barrister
MMB I think is a Surveyor  ???
Regards
Alison
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: ashleighn19 on Thursday 24 March 11 03:53 GMT (UK)
Thanks for that Alison,

Do you have any idea where I would go to find out where and when he became a surveyor? According to my great great great grandfathers birth certificate he was a Baker and then on his marriage certificate he was a Gentleman...

I always wondered how he got from a Baker to a Gentleman?

Ash
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: tedscout on Thursday 24 March 11 04:42 GMT (UK)
I always wondered how he got from a Baker to a Gentleman?

When he's cooked enough books and made enough dough!

Just book marking actually but I couldn't resist the joke.  ;)
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: cando on Thursday 24 March 11 05:06 GMT (UK)
I always wondered how he got from a Baker to a Gentleman?

When he's cooked enough books and made enough dough!

Just book marking actually but I couldn't resist the joke.  ;)


 ;D ;D ;D ::) :P    Hi Ted ;D

Ash the occupation 'Gentleman' often included the temporarily unemployed, financially embarrassed [bankrupts], the retired and those wishing to raise themselves above their given station in life ;D

My ancestors were surveyors in Victoria and their appointments were always announced in the Government Gazettes.
http://gazette.slv.vic.gov.au/

I have also noticed that assistants to surveyors [chainmen] often called themselves surveyors when in fact they were unqualified assistants....but extremely important in the big picture.

Perhaps the EYRE is a publishing error as in the indexes he is simply John WILLIAMS.

What was John's occupation on his death certificate?

Cheers
Cando



Cheers
Cando
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: cando on Thursday 24 March 11 05:08 GMT (UK)
Apologies Ash...missed the bit about you not knowing where he died :-[

He was simply John WILLIAMS on his marriage reg also.

Cando
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: cando on Thursday 24 March 11 05:20 GMT (UK)
Ash if you can give me his approximate year of birth I can have a trawl through the indexes for a death in the Vaughan and adjacent areas.  Hopefully he didn't move too far afield.  His year of birth may be enough anyway.

His marriage certificate would give you his parents's names and help us find his death in the indexes.

Cheers
Cando
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: cando on Thursday 24 March 11 05:24 GMT (UK)
John WILLIAMS was obviously alive in 1903 - year of his dau's marriage
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0cdz/

Back soon...will search for a John WILLIAMS death at Castlemaine after 1903.

Cando

Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: ashleighn19 on Thursday 24 March 11 05:26 GMT (UK)
I just thought the EYRE part might help me find what happened to him :(

Cando, do you have any idea what the MMB would mean?

I beleive he was born in 1831... his marriage certificate has him 31 in 1863 and born in Torquay, Devonshire England.

His parents names were John Williams and Ann Goodenough.

Ash
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: cando on Thursday 24 March 11 05:31 GMT (UK)
Just about to post two deaths in Castlemaine....and your John's is one of them

WILLIAMS John
Father Williams John  Mother Annie GOODENOUGH
81 years at Castlemaine  1910  Reg#8387

Cheers
Cando


Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: cando on Thursday 24 March 11 05:38 GMT (UK)
Contacts for burial records and Memorial inscriptions at Castlemaine cemetery
http://www.australiancemeteries.com/vic/mt_alexander/castlemaine.htm

Cando
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: ashleighn19 on Thursday 24 March 11 05:41 GMT (UK)
Blimey Cando you are amazing!

How have I never found this, it was so easy!!!!

THANK YOU SO MUCH!
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: ashleighn19 on Thursday 24 March 11 05:52 GMT (UK)
Would you be able to help me with one more thing Cando...

On the death certificate, it has that his daughter May (who I have as Agnes May) is deceased... can you possibly find out when she died? She was born in 1873 and was the elder of twins.

Thanks

Ash
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: cando on Thursday 24 March 11 06:09 GMT (UK)
OK.

I have checked all my ancestors notes and they were known simply as Licensed Surveyors.

I can't see a death for a May/Agnes May Williams to 1910.  I will have to search later as it is time to turn into a domestic goddess :P

Have you these deaths?

WILLIAMS Unnamed Male
Father John Mother Agnes BOWMAN
2 Days  born Vaughan  1865  Reg#10294

WILLIAMS Lillias Annabella
Father John  Mother Agnes BOWMAN
9 Months  born Vaughan  1874  Reg#3475

WILLIAMS Edith
Father John  Mother Agnes BOWMAN
4 Months  born Vaughan  1876  Reg#10570

Cheers  :)
Cando



Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: majm on Thursday 24 March 11 06:17 GMT (UK)
Re MMB ... I have just googled MMB and one offering I have found may actually be sensible  ;D

Melbourne Municipal Band ...

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: Dundee on Thursday 24 March 11 08:01 GMT (UK)
I was thinking it might have something to do with being a Master Baker  ???

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: ashleighn19 on Thursday 24 March 11 08:05 GMT (UK)
I still wonder why he was John Williams Eyre in the newspaper article?
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: cando on Thursday 24 March 11 09:35 GMT (UK)
I would be more interested to see what is on the certificates that what is in the press.  You have a choice ;D

Her 2nd husband is buried at Karrakatta Cemetery.
http://www.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/details.php?id=KB00059222

3rd Marriage.
MAIS Sarah E         
WHITEFIELD John O G    [This should be WHITFIELD]
District Sussex  Reg#15  1942

and her death

1958
WHITFIELD Sarah Elizabeth
Father John  Mother Agnes
At Perth  Reg#2885

And burial
http://www.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/details.php?id=KB00110641

Cando



Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: Raylen on Thursday 24 March 11 09:39 GMT (UK)
Hi Ash

On the death certificate, it has that his daughter May (who I have as Agnes May) is deceased... can you possibly find out when she died? She was born in 1873 and was the elder of twins.Thanks Ash


Possible  ::)


Marriage in WA
WILLIAMS Agnes May
ALTING John Manns
1898  Bunbury  Reg# 1628

Death in WA
ALTING  Agnes May
1904  Age 31 years
Place of Birth:  Victoria
Father: John Williams  Mother: Agnes Williams
Reg# 2886

http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au

Raylen
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: cando on Thursday 24 March 11 09:40 GMT (UK)
Omitted her age when transcribing...she was 88.

Cando
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: miabar on Thursday 24 March 11 11:54 GMT (UK)
Do you know if Agnes May was ever married? Cant find her under the surname Williams i the NSW BDM.
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: cando on Thursday 24 March 11 12:10 GMT (UK)
Agnes May WILLIAMS was born in Victoria and Raylen has found her marriage and death in WA - reply#19.

Cheers  :)
Cando
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: ashleighn19 on Thursday 12 May 16 05:00 BST (UK)
WOW! Its been a long time since I've delved into this side of the family, but I'm back researching the Alting side of my family. Here is what I am 100% sure of at this point.

Agnes May Williams (b. 1873, Vaughan, Vict) was the youngest daughter of John Goodenough Williams. She married John Manus (sometimes Magnus) "Jack" Alting in Bunbury, Western Australia in 1898. I'd love to find out how she got to Bunbury, but at the moment, I don't know. They had two little girls. Constance in 1899, and Gertrude in 1901, both born in Bunbury. Agnes died of consumption in 1904, leaving Jack with two small children. He re-married Frances Lucy Victoria Price in 1906 in the district of Wellington in Perth. Frances, I believe had three confirmed children from her previous marriage. However, I cannot find a record of this marriage, or what happened to her first husband. The children, were Leslie Clifton Price (b. 1890 in Dubbo), Harold Price (b. 1892 in Peak Hill, NSW) & Thyra Price (b. 1894 in Peak Hill, NSW). I can find birth records in NSW for all three, but cannot find marriage or death records for any of them in NSW or WA. I know Thyra married Eric Somers (from her father's death notice via Trove) and that Gertrude married Alexander Colebrook and had a daughter from that same death notice. However, I cannot find a birth record for that Daughter. There was also another daughter, May, who I cannot seem to find anything on whatsoever, who married George Woods also had a daughter.

Can anyone help me find some of the missing pieces especially regarding May - and more particularly the daughters of May and Gertrude if they are still alive.

Thanks
Ash
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: majm on Thursday 12 May 16 05:05 BST (UK)
Hi Ash,

As far as I know, it is still a No No to name people at RChat who may still be living people.  May I suggest you modify and leave initials rather than given names.

(NSW BDM online index restricted access 100 years for births, 50 for marriages and 30 for deaths)


Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: ashleighn19 on Thursday 12 May 16 05:09 BST (UK)
Hi Ash,

As far as I know, it is still a No No to name people at RChat who may still be living people.  May I suggest you modify and leave initials rather than given names.

(NSW BDM online index restricted access 100 years for births, 50 for marriages and 30 for deaths)


Cheers,  JM

No problem JM, sorry, I forgot that guideline. I have modified my post to just say daughters.
thanks :)
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: majm on Thursday 12 May 16 05:18 BST (UK)
 ;D

Hi there,

Thanks,

Now, if you were to consider official transcription of birth cert for Thyra E, daughter of John T and Frances, registered Peak Hill, 1894 (#27096) you should receive info about when/where her parents married, her mum's nee name, the age of her parents, the names and ages of her older siblings, and other family history info  :)

hopefully that would then lead to the mc for her parents.

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: ashleighn19 on Thursday 12 May 16 05:21 BST (UK)
post deleted

I got a bit ahead of myself. Please ignore.
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: majm on Thursday 12 May 16 05:25 BST (UK)
WA reverse marriage

Thrya E PRICE in 1938 married Eric S SOMERS, Perth district, #218
http://www.wamarriage.info/

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: majm on Thursday 12 May 16 05:26 BST (UK)
Gertrude M ATLING married Alexander COLEBROOK in 1927, in Perth  #1093

my typo .... ATLING should read ALTING sorry  :)

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: majm on Thursday 12 May 16 05:33 BST (UK)
At the NAA online,  Lesie Clifton PRICE has his mother as next of kin.  Her name is listed there as Francis ALTING. 

http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=8021664

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: ashleighn19 on Thursday 12 May 16 05:35 BST (UK)
At the NAA online,  Lesie Clifton PRICE has his mother as next of kin.  Her name is listed there as Francis ALTING. 

http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=8021664

Cheers,  JM

I found that too JM, interesting that the elder brother enlisted, but the younger brother, by only 2 years, did not....
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: jaybelnz on Thursday 12 May 16 05:46 BST (UK)
Is it possible that your Confusing man could have been from Eyre?  (SOUTH Australia)!
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: ashleighn19 on Thursday 12 May 16 05:50 BST (UK)
Is it possible that your Confusing man could have been from Eyre?  (SOUTH Australia)!

I thought of that too jaybelnz, and although a lot of my family do have connections to South Australia, this particular part does not. John Goodenough (the father in question) was born in England and died in Victoria. His eldest son, also John (Alexander) did die in Largs Bay though.
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: rosball on Thursday 12 May 16 07:07 BST (UK)
Marriage for Colebrook daughter in 1954
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article49629332

Ros
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: majm on Thursday 12 May 16 07:11 BST (UK)
http://www2.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/details.php?id=KB00148809

Joan Lois 1974

Cheers, JM
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: majm on Thursday 12 May 16 07:14 BST (UK)
Eric Siguard SOMERS 1980
Thyra Emma SOMERS 1972

http://www2.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/results.php

Cheers,  JM
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: ashleighn19 on Thursday 12 May 16 07:38 BST (UK)
http://www2.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/details.php?id=KB00148809

Joan Lois 1974

Cheers, JM

Well thats really sad. she died aged 40 an was outlived by her Mother by over 20 years. :( I'm really sad now. I'd love to know how she died, and if she had any children.
Who is the Grantee  on the burial record? How do I find them?
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: rosball on Thursday 12 May 16 07:42 BST (UK)
I suspect it was her father (and mistranscribed)
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: ashleighn19 on Thursday 12 May 16 07:44 BST (UK)
I suspect it was her father (and mistranscribed)

Of course it is! I feel very very stupid now. Why do you think it would be her father, and not her husband? Would I be right in assuming then that she most likely had no children?
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: cando on Thursday 12 May 16 07:49 BST (UK)
If you want information about her death you will need her death certificate....an expensive exercise in WA.

Slow down a bit and think things through....there is always someone on the board who can help you.  There's no rush.

The grantee may not be a relative.  The grant has expired and the area is approaching renewal.
http://www.mcb.wa.gov.au/docs/default-source/maps/karrakatta-cemetery-map.pdf?sfvrsn=2 (http://www.mcb.wa.gov.au/docs/default-source/maps/karrakatta-cemetery-map.pdf?sfvrsn=2)

Cando  :)
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: rosball on Thursday 12 May 16 07:57 BST (UK)
On 1980 electoral roll there is a possible son living with her husband - I will pm his name.
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: cando on Thursday 12 May 16 08:18 BST (UK)
Ronald Kevin DAVIES obviously moved back with his parents after the death of his wife.  He was at this address prior to his marriage.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article49219412

Marriage of the people named in the 1977 and 1980 electoral rolls
DAVIES Ernest G   
WARD Lillian J
District Perth   Reg#162   1931   

Burial records for Ernest and Lillian
http://www2.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/details.php?id=KC00135813
http://www2.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/details.php?id=KB00186525

Cando

Edit to add burial links
Title: Re: Confusing Man!
Post by: cando on Thursday 12 May 16 08:45 BST (UK)
Ashleigh I would never suggest to research your family from information in a marriage notice.  I mentioned previously that I would be more interested in the marriage certificate than the marriage announcement in the newspaper. 

It is obvious that an error has been made with the inclusion of the word EYRE as part of the father's name.   I also thought that the informer may have said John WILLIAMS ere MMB of Castlemaine ie ere =  before (in time).

Cando