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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: safarina on Friday 22 April 05 06:05 BST (UK)
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I can't find the Thomas Nicol and Mary Ramsay that were named as the parents on their son Henry Nicol's Poor Law application in Govan. (The son Henry was born abt 1830 - 1834)
I can only find a "Margaret" Ramsay & Thomas married 1830, but no signs yet of a "Mary" and I don't know if they had a son Henry.
Henry was listed as 55 yrs and Mary as 53 yrs on the above application in 1889..so that would make Henry born around 1834.
All of the Nicol family that I have found in the other generations are born in Lanarkshire (in the Glasgow area).
Safarina
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I am still trying to find more of my Nicol line and now I'm concerned that as a newbie a short time ago I may have wrongly placed too many "Topics" between the Beginners and here.....
All of the repies I received on other posts have been most helpful & set me on the right track with the Nicol's & got me off the wrong trail I was on with some Whyte's. Thanks to everyone!
Please help me straighten this out ..The first post here is what I am actually seeking help with at the moment....but it may be helpful to anyone wanting to help, to read some of my other posts. You'll see how confused I've been and why I need a little assistance in researching.
Safarina
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Hi, 1841 names index shows that Henry was living with his grandparents.
Census taken OUTERHIGH
Alexander Ramsay age 55
Margaret age 50
Isabella age 20
Jane age 15
Henry Nicol age 8
There's no sign of Thomas or Margaret (Mary) in 1841 nor his brother Thomas.
But the index I have does'nt cover Barony.
There's no sign of Henry in Glasgow 1851
1861 names index
Census taken HIGH CHURCH 644/2 ENUM DIST 12 PAGE 9
Henry Nicol age 28 born Glasgow
Christina age 28 born Glasgow
Robert age 5 born Glasgow
Janet age 3 born Glasgow
Margaret age 1 born Glasgow
Thomas age 30 born Glasgow (This is prob. Henry's brother)
Also in IGI there are births of Henry and Christina's children, their daughter Margaret was called Margaret Ramsay Nicol. I'd say she was called after her grandmother.
Regards Liz
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The 1851 Lanarkshire Names index has
Henry Nicol age 18 born STI Cumbernauld Par/Ward 652 Dist 5 Pge 8 No 15
652= Old Monkland
As it's not the full census it is difficult to see who he is living with but its not other members of the Nicol family.
Could this be the elusive Henry ?
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Hello Sweetie,
This will help quite a bit.
I noticed that, somewhere, you had put that his second wife was Mary?. You must have this, 1881c, but just thought I would post it again. saying that his wife was Margaret.
Also, I bought this Death for you. which straightens out, quite a bit. [can't find your posting that says, his mother is Mary and wife is Mary, but both appear to be Margaret.
Send me yout home email again and I will send you the cert.
1881c
Dwelling: 10 King St
Census Place: Eastwood, Renfrew, Scotland
Henry NICOL M 48 M Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Barber
Margaret NICOL M 42 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Occ: Barbers Wife
Henry NICOL U 24 M Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Fleshers Boy
attachment below.
regards
kenjo ;D
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Hi,
Does the 1841 census state that Henry is a grandson....I wonder what happened to his parents? (dead? in Jail? gone to greener pastures?)
The info I'm receiving is sure helping to answer a lot of questions as to where Henry was.....I now have some of the 1841, 1851, 1861, 1871 and 1881 Census and am looking forward to knowing when Henry died.
Henry's first wife was Christina White, and I have her death record of Aug 29, 1874.
The Poor Law Application of 1889 states that Henry 55 yrs married Mary Cross June 15, 1875 (dau. of Thomas Cross & Isabella Hay)
(The Margaret Nicol wife of Henry on the 1881 census would have to be the "Mary" Cross ....so it looks like the application should have read "Margaret" instead of Mary? )
Henry was born in Rottenrow, Glasgow (date unknown?)
Henry's parents are listed as Thomas Nicol & Mary Ramsay (both dead at time of this application)..but this also could be the Margaret Ramsay that we have found?
Safarina
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Hi, You would need to look at the actual census for more details as the index only covers what I've already posted.
I'm also a bit puzzled about the son Henry in 1881 census.
He does'nt appear with the family in 1861.
In IGI his birth is given as 1867 (extracted entry) which would have made him age 14 and not 24
You know Henry was still living in 1889, have you tried 1901 census? this would help in narrowing down his death.
You should be able to find his death cert on 'scotlandspeople'
Liz
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Hi,
Don't you think something is a bit wrong with the picture and it likely should have said son Henry was 14...(And one of the reasons he was still at home)
Henry (the father) was only abt 35 when son Henry was born in 1867and it states on the father's Death Certificate that he was 55 when he died Jan 21, 1891...
Young Henry would only be 24 when his father died 10 yrs later than the census that already records him as 24. .....Probably just unreadable writing on the census, but yes it would be interesting to see the actual census.
I also noticed that right away & was puzzled for a bit.
Safarina
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Have made attachment bigger!
The son was a flesherBOY, so he was probably 14, not 24, I hadn't noticed this.
kenjo
modified.
I have looked for the marriage of Henry to Margaret cross or clark, and can't find anything.
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Dorothy,
I was just curious? ???
When Robert married in 1890, did he say . Henry was a Barber, and that Christina was deceased?
Just wondering if, he knew, what his family was up to.
kenjo
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KENJO
I'm not sure....why Robert would give the incorrect name for his father on the Marriage Certificate....we "assumed" he still didn't want the association with the "Nicol" name, and because he, himself was known as Robert White, he gave his father's name as Henry-Galbraith White.....( hairdresser)....(no idea where the "Galbraith" came from?)
He also made himself 4 yrs younger & his wife Jane Scott 7 yrs older.
We as family here felt that they didn't want her (Jane Scott)'s family to know that the drunken Barber in town was his father.
(Jane was daughter of Archibald Scott & Ann Henderson, and I have no info on them yet other than Archie was a miner)
Robert did give his mother's name correctly as Christina White (M.S.Gilmour -deceased) (note--Gilmour was Her mother's name, not her's) (note: Christina's death was "Temperance-Sudden" in 1874)
At the time of Robert & Jane's marriage in 1890 Robert was living at 30 Elder street, Govan and Jane was at 26 White Street, Govan
Robert's father Henry & Margaret (Mary) Nicol were at 295 Stirling Road Shop, Govan ..same address as on Henry's Death Certificate.
Both Henry & "Mary" were known as "Drunken people" according to the prior Poor Law application.
I have no idea where Robert's brother & sisters were.
I have the "large" marriage certificate of Robert & Jane and "large" birth certificates of some of their children & Army records that were kept in our family's possessions, but havent figured out how to make them smaller & still readable for my files or on the computer.
Thanks for the email...it just arrived.
Safarina
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read previous post...
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Sorry if i seem a little confused here, but was'nt Robert's parents Henry Nicol and Christina White?, White being her maiden name, or so I thought.
Now on Robert Nicol or White's marriage cert, it gives his mother as Christina White nee Gilmour ??? Have I missed something here?
Regards
Liz
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I had just put in the earlier post what it had on the certificate...But this should answer you question as to the Gilmour name. I guess I forget that all this info I have in front of me isn't there for everyone else to see....sorry for confusion.
HENRY NICOL
b abt 1834
m. 14 JUL 1854 Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Sp. CHRISTINA WHITE
b. chr. 15 Nov 1832, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
dau of Christian Gilmour/Robert White (m.Nov 17,1820)
Christina White’s parent’s
Mother: Christian GILMOUR
Father: Robert (White) WHYTE
Safarina
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Hi Dorothy,
Robert's father Henry & Margaret (Mary) Nicol were at 295 Stirling Road Shop, Govan ..same address as on Henry's Death Certificate.
Both Henry & "Mary" were known as "Drunken people" according to the prior Poor Law application.
Do you mean, you have seen the same address on the marriage cert, or are you seeing the same address on the poor law.
I am trying to understand, whether he was in in contact with his family.
he knew his mum was gone, and he seemed to know dad was still alive, which means he was in contact with family.
Dot, please don't think I am being, totally nosey, and/or agressive, it's just, I am trying very hard for you. as we all are. nothing is ever as it seems.
We all need to know, things that will help.
:-\
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Dot,
In regard, to your family certificates.
do you have a scanner?
If you do, then scan, the documents.
and save them to, maybe,,, pictures.. which is in ....my documents... or just on your desktop.
Can you download off google.... IrfanView....
.I will wait, and see if you can do these things....
otherwise, can I suggest,,, that you ask 'deadants' in technical help. for advice.
he is great,
kenjo ;D
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Dot,
In regard, to your family certificates.
do you have a scanner?
If you do, then scan, the documents.
and save them to, maybe,,, pictures.. which is in ....my documents... or just on your desktop.
Can you download off google.... IrfanView....
.I will wait, and see if you can do these things....
otherwise, can I suggest,,, that you ask 'deadants' in technical help. for advice.
he is great,
kenjo ;D
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Kenjo
I was just saying that on the Death Cert. Henry was still at the same address on Stirling Street where he was living when he applied a few years earlier for Poor Law
....and I also gave Robert & his bride's addresses to show that they were all living in Govan and I would think that Robert would know that his father had a Barber/Hairdressing Shop as it is on Robert and Jane's Marriage Cert.
Yes....Robert does seem to know all about his father Henry, but I don't know if he had any actual contact with his father....and I was saying that for some reason Robert falsified his father's name some on the Marriage record.
Am I answering what you want, or am I still not getting what you are asking?? (I'm trying!)
Safarina
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Kenjo
Document size solved..reduced size to 11 inches by 8.5 inches and still readable ...(done at Photocopy shop) & will now fit on my scanner.
Thanks for working so hard to help me.
I really appreciate everyone helping.
Safarina
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So I know this is 10 years after your original posts but I was wondering if you had any new information on Thomas Nicol and Margaret Ramsay. Someone mentioned having access to Poor Law Applications from Scotland which I cannot access. It seems that you can only access them in person at Scotland's national archives. I live in the U.S. and it seems that maybe you all live in the UK. I also cannot see UK members on Ancestry. Anyway, this is what I have so far:
THOMAS NICOL & MARGARET RAMSAY
1. Thomas, b. 19 Sep 1831 in Scotland, d. 21 Jun 1867 in Scotland
a. m. Mary Denny 9 Jun 1851 in England
2. Henry Galbraith, b. 5 Feb 1833 in Scotland, d. 21 Jan 1891 in Scotland
a. m. Christina White 14 Jul 1854 in Scotland
b. m. Margaret Cross unknown
3. Andrew Ramsay, b. 5 Dec 1834 in Scotland, d. unknown
4. Margaret McKillop, b. 25 Oct 1836 in Scotland, d. unknown
a. m. James Mitchell 26 Jun 1857 in Scotland
5. Catherine Menzies, b. 3 Jun 1839 in Scotland, d. unknown
Thomas Nicol and Margaret Ramsay are my direct descendants through their oldest son Thomas. I think Margaret Ramsay passed away and Thomas Nicol remarried Christian Wilson.
Any information can help, thanks!
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Someone mentioned having access to Poor Law Applications from Scotland which I cannot access. It seems that you can only access them in person at Scotland's national archives.
The Poor Law records are not in the National Archives. They are in the local archives for the places they refer to, by and large, but I am not aware of any being fully available online. The Glasgow ones are in the City of Glasgow Archives in the Mitchell Library
I also cannot see UK members on Ancestry.
Not sure what you mean by this, but see
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
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I didn't realize the records were in different locations. No matter, since they are not available online I will not be able to view them. Maybe in the future that will change. What I meant by my Ancestry comment was that I think Ancestry members are kept separate based on country. So if I'm in the U.S. researching a family, I cannot see if there are any Ancestry members researching the same family if they live in another country. I could be wrong but I think that's the case. So I figured that perhaps there would be people in the UK researching the same family I am and that maybe they would have more information since they have access to more records.